MEGATHREAD - DWEOMERCRAFTING REWORK ON PGCC

[Coolguy McMagic]

I think the suggestion of an NPC would help a lot to control prices. You can get it cheaper if you have your own but the fixed price sets a cap and actually removes gold from the economy (which doesn’t happen right now)

I second that idea. While it would make runes feel less "special" in a way, runes have already turned mundane and the upside is pretty good. It means not everyone has to grind these few specific dungeons just because they have runes. I'm honestly getting pretty tired of runic dungeons - I want to run other content, too!
I know I CAN run other content, but good luck getting someone else to come with you. Which loops back to the party problem.

[Sincra]

I appreciate the concerns and posts so far but please keep the following in mind:

• I do not work on areas so NPC's are beyond my control.
• The runic chance tables I already adjusted once not long ago.
• The changing of runic chances requires Irongron to approve it.
• The changing of runic systems requires Irongron to approve it.
• The addition of runic acquisition methods requires Irongron to approve it.

As such I will now ask people refocus on the Dweomercraft tool or make another thread tangentially linked to discuss Runic concerns as while appreciated, I really am not in the position to change that or the systems.

[Curve]

I don't envy your position. It seems hard to have the power to change whole specific systems without the power to change the things that are affected. Thanks for the clarity.

[Tikin]

Duly noted the clarification about rune availability and NPCs not to be debated here

I hope we can (and should) still speak of how runes are to be implemented in this dweomercraft rework, as it’s not possible to consider such system outside of its components? I still have questions and concerns that touch with runes and the new enchantment system (not their availability) :

_I have tested the Assayer Lens with a few items. It seems that any crafted or looted item will not be runable if points are already above 26?
If this is correct, it will quite diminish the value of many crafted items imo (could give examples but I’d say any craftable that one can rune today but won’t be able to rune in new system loose value and interest). Is there a plan to make some adjustments? Do you want players to give inputs on the subject?

_Like I’ve said on my precedent post, I am under the impression that T1 and T2 rune will have low to no interest in the new system. The ideas I have put in my previous post concerned the new system in part … Any answer about these ideas? (the one where a tier is worth 4 points instead of 2 in particular concerns the system and not the availability of runes)?

_ also, I had raised this, not sure it’s been noticed as it’s unanswered unless I missed it :
Atm when I click "change item description" nothing comes
I haven't seen a button to change item name ... Have I missed something? Will it be in the same place as "change item description"?

[ReverentBlade]

The systems need to be considered holistically.

[Sincra]

_I have tested the Assayer Lens with a few items. It seems that any crafted or looted item will not be runable if points are already above 26?
If this is correct, it will quite diminish the value of many crafted items imo (could give examples but I’d say any craftable that one can rune today but won’t be able to rune in new system loose value and interest). Is there a plan to make some adjustments? Do you want players to give inputs on the subject?

If an item would not be modifiable as current post change due to the limitations as you have described, you can make note of it in this thread. It is likely they will either be given runes or adjusted to be given space.

_Like I’ve said on my precedent post, I am under the impression that T1 and T2 rune will have low to no interest in the new system. The ideas I have put in my previous post concerned the new system in part … Any answer about these ideas? (the one where a tier is worth 4 points instead of 2 in particular concerns the system and not the availability of runes)?

Runes can be replaced by using a higher tier rune on an item, so the idea here is to give usability and function to them all while providing a sense of growth.

_ also, I had raised this, not sure it’s been noticed as it’s unanswered unless I missed it :
Atm when I click "change item description" nothing comes
I haven't seen a button to change item name ... Have I missed something? Will it be in the same place as "change item description"?

That functionality is not currently implemented! I should disable the button until it is, thanks for the reminder.

[MRFTW]

I've got one of these daggers:

If I were to make a new character under these changes, would I be able to replicate this item?

For clarity, I've hard 5%ed keen, then used a rune to add +1 saves, then added 2 permanent essences, one offensive and one defensive.

[Sincra]

I've got one of these daggers:

If I were to make a new character under these changes, would I be able to replicate this item?

For clarity, I've hard 5%ed keen, then used a rune to add +1 saves, then added 2 permanent essences, one offensive and one defensive.

Given the following:
Essence (0)
Essence (0)

Enhancement 4 (22)
Converting enhancement bonus properties into dweomer points:
(2 * AB + 2) + (2 * (Average Damage) + 4)
((2 * 4) + 2) + ((2 * 4) + 4)
(8 + 2) + (8 + 4)
10 + 12
22

Universal (6)
Keen on a dagger (6)

34.
Doable if and when we add dynamic weapon generation.
You can instead do:
Essence
Essence
Enhancement 4
Save reflex
Save will
Keen on dagger

This will be 32.

[Tikin]

Runes can be replaced by using a higher tier rune on an item, so the idea here is to give usability and function to them all while providing a sense of growth.

Thanks for this clarification about how the system will work, I believe it's a great way to handle it!

[MRFTW]

Snip

Thanks for doing that for me. That's not -too- bad of a nerf, in the +4 dagger's case.

I'd need to find a way to get T3 dweomercrafting to do the setup you posted, if I followed the update notes correctly. A bit more legwork for my lowly T2 warlock but there's an RP scene to be had, there.

[Ad Astra]

How likely is it right now we will be getting an item scrubber with the update? Is the item scrubber a done deal, as in is it set to be added one way or another? Will it allow is to remove one specific enchant or will it cleanse the whole item?

I know this is a little off-topic, but I feel it is important to me in my planning, especially with people mass buying up all runic materials in existence. I will admit, it would be really nice if it did come out with the update, because it would completely nullify the point of this whole hoarding of runic materials. As it stands, why people are doing this is because they expect to make new items as opposed to modifying current ones.

[Sincra]

How likely is it right now we will be getting an item scrubber with the update? Is the item scrubber a done deal, as in is it set to be added one way or another? Will it allow is to remove one specific enchant or will it cleanse the whole item?

I know this is a little off-topic, but I feel it is important to me in my planning, especially with people mass buying up all runic materials in existence. I will admit, it would be really nice if it did come out with the update, because it would completely nullify the point of this whole hoarding of runic materials. As it stands, why people are doing this is because they expect to make new items as opposed to modifying current ones.

The item scrubber will not be in version one, this is a certainty.

The idea and rationale behind it so far from the very light discussions I have had around it are as follows:

• Allows you to downgrade a property by 1 step.
• Can only be done 1 time per item.
• Expensive to craft or rare to find.
• Allows minor adaptations to what is otherwise static loot.

For example:
You have an item with +1 regen, +1 charisma, a very standard ring that people like but is niche.
You then downgrade the 1 charisma by 1 step, this is 0, so it is removed.

You have a helmet with +2 intelligence.
You downgrade the intelligence by 1 step.
It now has +1 intelligence.

I don't believe anyone would do the second example exactly but it portrays the approach.

[Fortress99]

Image attatched is a Masterly Damask scimitar with a masterwork blade rune on it. Cannot put Keen on. Unless this is intentional for 18-20 weapons

20231206160537_1.jpg (125.74 KiB) Viewed 14668 times

[Sincra]

Image attatched is a Masterly Damask scimitar with a masterwork blade rune on it. Cannot put Keen on. Unless this is intentional for 18-20 weapons 20231206160537_1.jpg

This is more of a bug than anything else.
I had it brought to my attention earlier and have a fix in the works for it.
Once merged I'll be posting the notes here and the normal channels.

[Sincra]

From Sincra & Kenji, as of next PGCC reset:

Dweomercraft Patch 1.0.1 [PGCC]:

Changes

= Item Property Bonus Feats now have assigned values. (Please note this does NOT mean you can enchant them)
= Gold Cost Divisor Now 4500. (Reduces top end by around 15-20 thousand)
= Cost cap per point set to 2500 gold. (8 points will never exceed 20,000 gold)
= Specific Saves (vs) now count as 1 per value. (+3 vs Fear = 3 Points)
= Specific Saves vs Spells now counts as 6 per value.
= Magic Wands can now be enchanted appropriately, as can many other things.

Additions

= Torch is now considered a shield for the purposes of enchanting in existing and future system.

• Anything a shield could accept a torch now can.
• As with shields, characters do not benefit from bonus unarmed attacks from Monk or the pugilist line of feats while wielding a torch in the offhand.

Bug Fixes

All those in the bug thread have been addressed, please let me know if you see any regressions/unexpected behaviour.
[viewtopic.php?f=12&t=44023]

= Attack Bonus should now correctly use the formula as released.
= Enhancement Bonus should now correctly use the formula as released.
= Massive Critical should now correctly use the formula as released.
= Colour Tags no longer should show for the name of the item display.

[Coolguy McMagic]

From Sincra & Kenji, as of next PGCC reset:

Dweomercraft Patch 1.0.1 [PGCC]:

Changes

= Item Property Bonus Feats now have assigned values. (Please note this does NOT mean you can enchant them)
= Gold Cost Divisor Now 4500. (Reduces top end by around 15-20 thousand)
= Cost cap per point set to 2500 gold. (8 points will never exceed 20,000 gold)
= Specific Saves (vs) now count as 1 per value. (+3 vs Fear = 3 Points)
= Specific Saves vs Spells now counts as 6 per value.
= Magic Wands can now be enchanted appropriately, as can many other things.

Additions

= Torch is now considered a shield for the purposes of enchanting in existing and future system.

• Anything a shield could accept a torch now can.
• As with shields, characters do not benefit from bonus unarmed attacks from Monk or the pugilist line of feats while wielding a torch in the offhand.

Bug Fixes

All those in the bug thread have been addressed, please let me know if you see any regressions/unexpected behaviour.
[viewtopic.php?f=12&t=44023]

= Attack Bonus should now correctly use the formula as released.
= Enhancement Bonus should now correctly use the formula as released.
= Massive Critical should now correctly use the formula as released.
= Colour Tags no longer should show for the name of the item display.

What does specific saves vs spells mean and why is it 6 points when unisaves are also 6 points?

[Kalopsia]

What does specific saves vs spells mean and why is it 6 points when unisaves are also 6 points?

NWN has a specialised saving throw item property that, just like 5 Spellcraft ranks, grants characters a bonus of +1 against all magic (i.e. to fortitude, reflex and will). Since this item property (in many cases) is just as impactful as universal saves and not available to players except for some loot items, we've decided to give it the same value.

[Coolguy McMagic]

What does specific saves vs spells mean and why is it 6 points when unisaves are also 6 points?

NWN has a specialised saving throw item property that, just like 5 Spellcraft ranks, grants characters a bonus of +1 against all magic (i.e. to fortitude, reflex and will). Since this item property (in many cases) is just as impactful as universal saves and not available to players except for some loot items, we've decided to give it the same value.

Interesting. I've never seen that before. Thanks for the clarification.
For a second there I thought this was a specific save nerf and I was getting worried.

[Quidix]

I love the concept and UI of this change – it’s very exciting and thank you for the immense effort. I have a few concerns, which I hope can be considered:

1. Crafted items which could previously be 5% and then runed for +2 stats provide a big
Problem: An Enchanted Fine Silk Shirt could previously be 5% and then Runed, adding +2 stats. Under the new system, it only gains 6 points when runed, which is not enough for a single stat. Similarly for Sargeant’s Cloak. This creates a big advantage for legacy crafted items (+4 stats with these two examples alone).
Solution: Add Runic to these items, and allow the ability to add a Rune after that.

3. Four stat items
Problem: Previously, one could enchant +2 skill, +1 specific save, +1 ability, +1 ability => 5% it for another +1 ability => apply a master rune for +1 ability (that is, +4 stats). Removing the option has build implications and provides an immense grandfathering advantage to old characters.
Solution: Reduce stat cost to 7 (down from 8) to keep things equal.

4. Runes and +1 ability
Problem: Runes are most commonly used to add +1 ability, under the new system they grant 6 points, which is not enough for +1 ability (8 points)
Solution: Increase runes to +7 points, combined with earlier suggestion to reduce stat cost to 7 points.

Have these 3 points me thought of or considered? They seem quite far-reaching in terms of balance implications.

On a very specific note, can "WeapSpecUnArm" be made into 6 points? Previously one could enchant the monk belt with 2x +1 ability, and then masterwork rune it for another +1 stat. This is no longer possible as it would cost 34 (2+10+8+8+8).

[Sincra]

I love the concept and UI of this change – it’s very exciting and thank you for the immense effort. I have a few concerns, which I hope can be considered:

1. Crafted items which could previously be 5% and then runed for +2 stats provide a big
Problem: An Enchanted Fine Silk Shirt could previously be 5% and then Runed, adding +2 stats. Under the new system, it only gains 6 points when runed, which is not enough for a single stat. Similarly for Sargeant’s Cloak. This creates a big advantage for legacy crafted items (+4 stats with these two examples alone).
Solution: Add Runic to these items, and allow the ability to add a Rune after that.

3. Four stat items
Problem: Previously, one could enchant +2 skill, +1 specific save, +1 ability, +1 ability => 5% it for another +1 ability => apply a master rune for +1 ability (that is, +4 stats). Removing the option has build implications and provides an immense grandfathering advantage to old characters.
Solution: Reduce stat cost to 7 (down from 8) to keep things equal.

4. Runes and +1 ability
Problem: Runes are most commonly used to add +1 ability, under the new system they grant 6 points, which is not enough for +1 ability (8 points)
Solution: Increase runes to +7 points, combined with earlier suggestion to reduce stat cost to 7 points.

Have these 3 points me thought of or considered? They seem quite far-reaching in terms of balance implications.

On a very specific note, can "WeapSpecUnArm" be made into 6 points? Previously one could enchant the monk belt with 2x +1 ability, and then masterwork rune it for another +1 stat. This is no longer possible as it would cost 34 (2+10+8+8+8).

On topic 1, this will be an ongoing process and I agree that where items were able to do something required by people and now cannot be it is worth reviewing their pre runed status.

On topic 2, pre runed items that grant 8 rune points are lootable, 4 stat items are still possible they are just rare.
And gearing for 3 stat + skills and achieving 7 7 7 5 is actually not overly complex for most situations, which you then need 2 zoo buffs to reach 12 12 12 10.

On topic 3, the points have been carefully assigned already.
They're intentionally as they are to make you need decide what is important while still being less restrictive due to the loss of 5%.
Any further reduction or expansion would be a markèd improvement over 5%'d gear to the extent it would cause concerns in the team.

On topic 4, Kalo will need to answer that one as he and I worked on the values together and I was not sure where that one specifically should sit.

[Beary Nice]

Damage Immunity now scales at 5 per 5% for All other damage types.

This latest change is unseasonably high. Jumping from 2 to 5 ruins a lot of gear that is pre-made by professions, and it also severely limits the potential of any dweomered-from-scratch gear.

For example, crafted Ankheg Armor has 50% acid immunity, both on the chain and scale variants, which means that you won't be able to put even primary stat on it, now.

Greensteel Shield will lose 10 points to the inherent 10% positive resistance it has on it, and that was used by a lot of arcane casters.

The hemomancer only items will now get an arbirtrary 3 extra points tacked on, from 2, from the 5% bleed they have - I think there might even be a 10% bleed immunity item, but I don't remember.

Those are just a few examples. There are many other items that will be rendered nigh-unusable with this change. I understand that there might have needed to be an adjustment made, but this is too much of a knee-jerk reaction.

3 would have been an adequate jump.

[Xerah]

Those are very niche item uses.

You also need to consider the system as a whole rather than individually. You can get a lot more on your equipment with these changes, so an item not being able to be runed is not as bad as it was previously.

Additionally, most of these items come runed already and you can't put another one on, so there is no net change.

The greensteel shield has 28 points now and the Ankheg armours are both over the limit, but I haven't noticed anything else. I can still see use from those things even with this change.

[Beary Nice]

Those are very niche item uses.

You also need to consider the system as a whole rather than individually. You can get a lot more on your equipment with these changes, so an item not being able to be runed is not as bad as it was previously.

Additionally, most of these items come runed already and you can't put another one on, so there is no net change.

The greensteel shield has 28 points now and the Ankheg armours are both over the limit, but I haven't noticed anything else. I can still see use from those things even with this change.

Just because items are niche doesn't mean they should be gutted and rendered borderline unusable. I really don't think this is something that you can or should play devil's advocate with; this is more than doubling the cost of it.

Adjustments are one thing, but this is too severe; every item made from scratch now can barely afford to add this to their planned properties. If abilities are 8, skills are 2, and saves are 2, that means that the average item that was:

2 skill (2)
2 skill (2)
2 skill (2)
1 specific save (2)
1 specific save (2)
1 ability (8)
1 ability (8)

(26)

Will have to add a masterwork rune to gain 5% immunity per item, and won't be able to benefit from the supposed flexibility of adding more skills to items with the new update.

Having it at 3 or 4 means that the average dweomer crafted item would only require a greater rune at worst, but even 4 is too much.

Adding 5% elemental immunity to crafted items that don't have a rune latently is now almost impossible, and it shouldn't be, no matter how niche the item is.

[Xerah]

I'm not playing devil's advocate. I think you're over reacting to the changes. 5 does seem high at first glance, but I don't think it is that impactful. If you want DI on there without a masterwork rune, then just drop 1 of the saves or 1 point of skill and you're at the same spot with a mid-tier rune. This update is already adding a huge amount of extra space on items.

The one thing that you could argue for is if crafted items could have the points cost set to a different value or if crafted items would have different calculations (Even if this is a bit extra complicated). That's a bit confusing but a far better option than allowing stacking mass amount of DI, at least with PhyDI, it's been highly limited to very specific cases that usually involve low AC.

It's not common to add DI to their items as is. If you've planned to do so already (which seems to be what you're implying) I would caution against making definite plans on things in beta testing stages.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

if items cap out on points, we can add runes to them so they can still take enchantments dev-side. we are already looking at that to make enchanted fine silk shirts enchantable after the update