Too many warlock versus other casters

[Curve]

You literally can't because you will have people (even good aligned clerics etc.) defend them and paint you as the bad guy.

You literally can. You just have to eat the consequences of your character's actions.

[AstralUniverse]

I think we need to also remember that there's a huge gap between killbashing and just making someone feel unwanted. If I play a lvl 3 warlock in Cordor I honestly dont mind feeling unwanted. Having hard times finding companions for writs, having hard times finding crafters willing to make me items, having hard times getting the attention of a guard if I'm being pick-pocketed. These would all be valid consequences to pay as the warlock price. The problem is usually more that warlocks very rarely get to have that experience. They must keep it absolute secret for the fear of just getting killbashed 24/7, so they dont get treated like crap for as long as they keep it a secret, and when they get outed it easily shifts to the opposite extreme where they just get kicked out of hubs and get killbashed.

I think a good goal would be to let warlocks live, let them struggle, let them play arelith on higher difficulty, but let them actually do it. When was the last time you heard of a warlock in Cordor that wasnt fully stacked and ready for lvl 30 pvp? Have you ever heard of a warlock at low lvls actually being openly a warlock on the surface in settlements? It is extremely rare and I think that's what the DMs are pushing us towards when they force us to allow warlocks in Cordor.

[Griefmaker]

I think we need to also remember that there's a huge gap between killbashing and just making someone feel unwanted. If I play a lvl 3 warlock in Cordor I honestly dont mind feeling unwanted. Having hard times finding companions for writs, having hard times finding crafters willing to make me items, having hard times getting the attention of a guard if I'm being pick-pocketed. These would all be valid consequences to pay as the warlock price. The problem is usually more that warlocks very rarely get to have that experience. They must keep it absolute secret for the fear of just getting killbashed 24/7, so they dont get treated like crap for as long as they keep it a secret, and when they get outed it easily shifts to the opposite extreme where they just get kicked out of hubs and get killbashed.

I think a good goal would be to let warlocks live, let them struggle, let them play arelith on higher difficulty, but let them actually do it. When was the last time you heard of a warlock in Cordor that wasnt fully stacked and ready for lvl 30 pvp? Have you ever heard of a warlock at low lvls actually being openly a warlock on the surface in settlements? It is extremely rare and I think that's what the DMs are pushing us towards when they force us to allow warlocks in Cordor.

This is an excellent post and is how I would see warlock and animator life on the surface. One step more unwanted than say an evil group like Banites in a good city who are evil but not openly doing evil things. However still able to do their thing…within reason.

[Amateur Hour]

If I play a lvl 3 warlock in Cordor I honestly dont mind feeling unwanted. Having hard times finding companions for writs, having hard times finding crafters willing to make me items, having hard times getting the attention of a guard if I'm being pick-pocketed. These would all be valid consequences to pay as the warlock price.

Let's say you make a level 3 infernal-pact warlock in Cordor right now, and you're not going to be an idiot (so you're not going to summon a fiend in the middle of the city). You go collect a group of newbies who you've never seen before to do intro writs. No level 3 -5 is going to be able to pass the spellcraft check to identify your Eldritch Blast (heck, I've had fully-invested casters in low epics not pass the Spellcraft check to identify obvious Eldritch Blasts), so if they claim "hey, you've gotta be a warlock!" or even "I don't recognize that magic; I bet that's evil!" that's a rule-break and you can report it. But let's say you're playing super safe: you can just Flame Lash everything constantly, and if anyone says "that's way too much Flame Lash even for an elementalist; you've gotta be a warlock" that is, again, a rulebreak and something you can report. You can continue this way pretty much indefinitely. It's not hard to come up with a tactic for any pact that will make it so no one can call you out as a warlock unless they break rules.

But frankly, a lot of those consequences your average player finds more obnoxious than getting killed...or they aren't consequences at all. Most of the gear warlocks need has to be crafted by other warlocks or hexblades (one of the few costs of the class, ironically, that they have to find other warlocks) so they're not exactly having to convince Mr. Paladin Smith to overlook that teeny tiny little deal they made with a devil ten years ago.

When was the last time you heard of a warlock in Cordor that wasnt fully stacked and ready for lvl 30 pvp? Have you ever heard of a warlock at low lvls actually being openly a warlock on the surface in settlements?

This is just going to continue forever because there's literally no incentive to do otherwise and multiple incentives to keep quiet until you're level 30 with all your gear (which is, again, pretty dang simple), even if we just consider the fact that everyone loves a big "I was evil the WHOLE TIME" reveal.

[Eyeliner]

You’re going to do those things if you want to play it safe. And most players will do that because not only is it the safest route, it’s the easiest. But maybe some of us want the challenge and experience of playing a warlock who isn’t carefully hiding it. I know that’s not the most popular option but the RP can potentially be far more rewarding and interesting and I think having some level of seediness around adds something vital to the big surface cities. Setting guidelines that you can’t exile and bash warlocks solely because they’re warlocks is necessary to enable this, and doesn’t mean they won’t have repercussions— they just have to be more of a slow burn.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Less handholding
More pitchforks and torches
Build the rampart
Forbid the tieflings and warlocks once more!

I want this because one of my ambitions is playing a tiefling paladin and I want it to mean something

[Kythana]

Warlock consequences don't and will never mean anything the way the server currently is.

With the existence of the Underdark and Andunor, almost any type of Warlock is free to just go live there without being harassed or killed.

Sure, you might lose access to the surface settlements, but this isn't really any sort of meaningful player trade for balance purposes.

All monsters are already banned from the surface as it is, so what's the problem with just adding one more? When you have a fully functional society that any evil player can just use a backup, then there's no real fear of ostracization. I've had players express to me oocly that if their secret evil plan gets exposed, they'll just go the Underdark.

None of the actual consequences of bargaining with an evil patron have any sort of effect on a character level, unless the player chooses to rp it.

Additionally...

As a player in Myon presently, I've also felt that from a DM/Admin team level, that warlocks and subsequently fiend pacting is becoming forcibly pushed unto us.

Without giving too much detail, there was a recent occurrence of where a DM warlock character, who was pacted to nearly every known entity that elves hate, was forced onto the settlement, without any option to kill or exile.

Now personally, I'm fine with making Warlocks being treated in a more nuanced manner. Where just being pacted alone isn't an immediate cause for concern, but seen on the level of something like a hemomancer or defiler. Using very ugly tools that can potentially corrupt the user.

But the server direction for so long has been of the mindset that Warlocks are always bad, and that anyone who ever enters a pact is doing it willingly and fully understands the consequences of how evil they're being.

You can't just erase the culture that's built, unless you do it slowly and gradually.

[AstralUniverse]

If I play a lvl 3 warlock in Cordor I honestly dont mind feeling unwanted. Having hard times finding companions for writs, having hard times finding crafters willing to make me items, having hard times getting the attention of a guard if I'm being pick-pocketed. These would all be valid consequences to pay as the warlock price.

Let's say you make a level 3 infernal-pact warlock in Cordor right now, and you're not going to be an idiot (so you're not going to summon a fiend in the middle of the city). You go collect a group of newbies who you've never seen before to do intro writs. No level 3 -5 is going to be able to pass the spellcraft check to identify your Eldritch Blast (heck, I've had fully-invested casters in low epics not pass the Spellcraft check to identify obvious Eldritch Blasts), so if they claim "hey, you've gotta be a warlock!" or even "I don't recognize that magic; I bet that's evil!" that's a rule-break and you can report it. But let's say you're playing super safe: you can just Flame Lash everything constantly, and if anyone says "that's way too much Flame Lash even for an elementalist; you've gotta be a warlock" that is, again, a rulebreak and something you can report. You can continue this way pretty much indefinitely. It's not hard to come up with a tactic for any pact that will make it so no one can call you out as a warlock unless they break rules.

But frankly, a lot of those consequences your average player finds more obnoxious than getting killed...or they aren't consequences at all. Most of the gear warlocks need has to be crafted by other warlocks or hexblades (one of the few costs of the class, ironically, that they have to find other warlocks) so they're not exactly having to convince Mr. Paladin Smith to overlook that teeny tiny little deal they made with a devil ten years ago.

When was the last time you heard of a warlock in Cordor that wasnt fully stacked and ready for lvl 30 pvp? Have you ever heard of a warlock at low lvls actually being openly a warlock on the surface in settlements?

This is just going to continue forever because there's literally no incentive to do otherwise and multiple incentives to keep quiet until you're level 30 with all your gear (which is, again, pretty dang simple), even if we just consider the fact that everyone loves a big "I was evil the WHOLE TIME" reveal.

Can I make a warlock, start in Cordor, be an open warlock, not do undead/fiends in Cordor, but be insane enough to not be able to hide the fact I'm a warlock and actually manage to live as a warlock, unwanted, untrusted, not killbashed, low level warlock and not excluded from RP or get tossed out of town?
Like, you're explaining how easily a warlock can avoid getting outed, especially in early levels, and I agree with you, but what I'm talking about is culture and how easy/hard it is for a warlock to impose consequences on themselves in this culture. Because eventually all real consequences in this game are self imposed anyway.

[Choofed]

There seems to be some weird perception you'll be immediately lynched nowadays on surface if you're just a regular old warlock with no summon out shooting beams. You just won't. Most people don't want to kill Writworkers. Cordor's Government is arm twisted to not discriminate against them. Guldorand cannot discriminate against them.

Consequently, some people might shun them but most people just take the utilitarian approach that their laser beams are just a convenient cool thing they can do. And you won't get lynched in these towns, there is no swath of vigilantees who want to run in with the big state institutions backed the DMs who are being strong armed into accepting literal willing servants of hell, Cthulu and such.

Because if the government institutions did allow us to just round up and expel the warlocks like we used to, for sure, the DMs would intervene. ‘Don't force them out of their houses, off the streets' etc. This comes to the current status quo. There isn't a cost, as warlocks are forced to be accepted, eventually ones played by competent players will acquire influence and become hard to dislodged, eventually accepted as a piece of the tapestry, and become a non-consequential background piece.

Good requires the intolerance of evil in our roleplay environment. Your paladin cannot be friends with the torturer who skins people to death on the regular in his little organisation, the DMs will start asking questions on why skinning people is so chill for him as a means he ostensibly is benefitting from.

By forcing tolerance of evil, the 'problem' becomes the paladin disrupting the status quo. Evil is forced into society as a demand to be tolerated, and then attempting to change it makes them at fault. It becomes the Paladin of Tyr in Cordor who is the criminal for 'harassment' of some poor poor warlock because he was intolerant. We must remember the 'Lawful' axis in this, and Cordor often presents itself as a Lawful society.

So we come to where we are now. Warlocks are gaining traction and if it wasn't for the old guard they'd be accepted outright as "That slightly edgy dude" especially if they play off their pact as a really light one like... selling their left leg for laser beams and just having a peg leg or that a fey kept his dog. There are no guidelines for the pacts being meaningful betrayals of their normal nature.

The consequence for being a warlock is fading. We are making those intolerant of them the rejects.

And to make this perfectly clear, there is renewed DM pressure right now to further legalise and unpenalize warlocks happening in game.

[Nobs]

Sounds like there now is a cost for paladins and sutch working for a corupt king/queen in a vile city.

[Paint]

The consequence for being a warlock is fading. We are making those intolerant of them the rejects.

And to make this perfectly clear, there is renewed DM pressure right now to further legalise and unpenalize warlocks happening in game.

I wrote a few, much saltier and much more frustrated messages that I ended up not posting instead, but this snippet right here, and choofed's entire post is mostly why I'm disappointed in the settlement system as it is right now, and how toothless it's becoming. Settlements are an incredible roleplay tool -- and continue to be -- but the more power taken away from the players who run these settlements, the less interesting the mechanic becomes, and the less meaningful the shifting of power becomes.

The thing that should define what a warlock pact is to players is other players. They should have the tools to do so appropriately, and not feel like they're going to get punished for using them. By writing these rules into the law in Cordor and Guldorand, you're effectively taking what could be a very interesting struggle and making it worthless. Not worth fighting over. Not worth campaigning over. Certainly not worth committing to months of roleplay over. The stakes matter less.

Ironically, it erodes setting integrity.

And if you think it doesn't, put up or shut up. Let's see some player-driven dialogues about Guldorand and Cordor's rules and how warlocks are codified get off the ground and go literally anywhere. Let's see how long vigilante crusades into either city to root out warlocks last.

Or, we can accept that in Arelith's version of the Forgotten Realms, being a warlock isn't that big of a deal anymore, and that Arelith's team has consistently pushed to make it that way. And if that's the case, that's fine. But don't be surprised when players start acting like it.

As a side note, any mechanical meaning you give to the warlock pacts in the form of penalties, or changed NPC interactions'll be seen as a hurdle of the class to circumnavigate, rather than produce any real, meaningful RP. It'll probably just annoy the people who play warlocks a lot.

TL;DR -- If you want players to treat warlocks like they're warlocks, let them treat warlocks like warlocks. Otherwise, I can assure you, you do not want players to treat warlocks like they're warlocks. I'm not gonna dump hours and hours into Arelith trying to meaningfully engage with warlocks in these places as a good-aligned character if I feel like my reward is going to be DMs telling me to knock it off. Better to just find roleplay in something else.

[D4wN]

Sounds like there now is a cost for paladins and sutch working for a corupt king/queen in a vile city.

LOL, you say that as if there's a choice. Oh sure, we human characters could go live in Bendir where there is 0 influence from DMs on how to govern their settlement. Or Brog. Or Myon. But the truth is these Settlements aren't for humans and that is 100% abundantly clear and the RP style of each settlement is -very- different too. So then you're left with Cordor or Guldorand. Both of which are heavily influenced by DM/Dev/Admin direction. The Founder's Council and Charter is a constant reminder that it doesn't matter if you're an outcast, pirate, animator etc. Because you're protected by the laws. Equally the Cordor Palace consistently makes the decisions to force players into normalising and accepting these characters. What's left? Leave a settlement. Sure, it's an option too. And then you get 0 RP because the majority of RP happens in Settlements.

My point is the same as Choof's and a few others here. When you, as DM/Devs/Admins normalise these things then you will naturally see changes to the way people treat these sorts of characters and what they do or don't feel empowered to do against them.

And absolutely I will once more call out that I don't get where this stigma on Cordor killing everyone comes from. It simply doesn't happen.

[chris a gogo]

Dawn wrote.

And absolutely I will once more call out that I don't get where this stigma on Cordor killing everyone comes from. It simply doesn't happen.

Well I've seen it happen to a low level warlock. around 4 months ago just before I took a break from the server.
Guards killed the character because summoning fey is illegal.

A little more information.
I asked IC how they knew it was an unseelie fey to which I was told they were expert's.
So my pale master that was questioning them walked off deciding not to get involved in the Cordor guards god like ability of telling creatures alignments across a dark field at night.

So it does happen due to the environment created by players making up laws for the starter city, and the brutal implementation by some players.

P.S.
Im kind of playing devils advocate here as I think warlocks should be hounded out of any town or village when they are discovered same way necromancers are.

[-XXX-]

What's left? Leave a settlement. Sure, it's an option too. And then you get 0 RP because the majority of RP happens in Settlements.

So leaving in protest of a corrupt government that stands in the way of paladins driving all the bad guys out of town for good sucks because the majority of RP happens in that town? Got to appreciate the irony here.

[D4wN]

What's left? Leave a settlement. Sure, it's an option too. And then you get 0 RP because the majority of RP happens in Settlements.

So leaving in protest of a corrupt government that stands in the way of paladins driving all the bad guys out of town for good sucks because the majority of RP happens in that town? Got to appreciate the irony here.

There are plenty of bad guys in Cordor and they're given a lot of room to do their bad guy plots and plans. A lot of people are unfortunately not very subtle though. Even then, a blind eye is very often turned.

[D4wN]

Dawn wrote.

And absolutely I will once more call out that I don't get where this stigma on Cordor killing everyone comes from. It simply doesn't happen.

Well I've seen it happen to a low level warlock. around 4 months ago just before I took a break from the server.
Guards killed the character because summoning fey is illegal.

A little more information.
I asked IC how they knew it was an unseelie fey to which I was told they were expert's.
So my pale master that was questioning them walked off deciding not to get involved in the Cordor guards god like ability of telling creatures alignments across a dark field at night.

So it does happen due to the environment created by players making up laws for the starter city, and the brutal implementation by some players.

P.S.
Im kind of playing devils advocate here as I think warlocks should be hounded out of any town or village when they are discovered same way necromancers are.

I said everyone. I'm not saying it never happens. But people are acting like it's all Cordorians do. It's just not. Sure it may happen on occasion especially when you have a guard who gets overeager on their newfound authority. But I have seen 95% of lowbee warlock/animators be released or told to go gather some coal and better their lives.

[AstralUniverse]

Sounds like there now is a cost for paladins and sutch working for a corupt king/queen in a vile city.

LOL, you say that as if there's a choice. Oh sure, we human characters could go live in Bendir where there is 0 influence from DMs on how to govern their settlement. Or Brog. Or Myon. But the truth is these Settlements aren't for humans and that is 100% abundantly clear and the RP style of each settlement is -very- different too. So then you're left with Cordor or Guldorand. Both of which are heavily influenced by DM/Dev/Admin direction. The Founder's Council and Charter is a constant reminder that it doesn't matter if you're an outcast, pirate, animator etc. Because you're protected by the laws. Equally the Cordor Palace consistently makes the decisions to force players into normalising and accepting these characters. What's left? Leave a settlement. Sure, it's an option too. And then you get 0 RP because the majority of RP happens in Settlements.

My point is the same as Choof's and a few others here. When you, as DM/Devs/Admins normalise these things then you will naturally see changes to the way people treat these sorts of characters and what they do or don't feel empowered to do against them.

And absolutely I will once more call out that I don't get where this stigma on Cordor killing everyone comes from. It simply doesn't happen.

DMs arent normalizing anything except that you dont banish folks from settlement based on their class. Which is mega reasonable.

These are starter locations. Keep in mind. You're supposed to be able to start a warlock at lvl 3 in those places, as defined by the rules and your starter location options in arelith entry. Players shouldnt have the power to change that. Warlocks shouldnt be excluded from settlements just based on their class, because.. "Then you get 0 RP because the majority of RP happens in settlements" right?

Find a way to deal with it. That's all.

No one is forcing you to like warlocks, or be friends of people who are friends of warlocks. The normalization and over-acceptance is coming from players who are warlocks, or have warlock friends. Deal with it IC. You can deal with it IC. The DMs said dont banish from city, they didnt say you need to welcome warlocks into city-related factions, governmental positions of power and treat them as everyone else, the DMs just said dont banish them entirely from town based on their class alone. The gap is large and you have space to maneuver.

[ClockworkRed]

In my eyes, this is best dealt with mechanically. Similar to Pirates one could give these PCs a tool to hide their class choice until they reach epic levels, e.g. mimicking some other class' ability and summoning streams.

[Paint]

Find a way to deal with it. That's all.

Or, alternatively, don't deal with it at all until your hand is forced because someone summons a fiend in broad daylight, accept the warlock acceptance of the times, and live a happier, less stressful life.

Maybe that's just a me opinion, but I'm not going to shoot myself in the foot to give people who don't want it a more _authentic roleplaying experience_. Warlocks and warlock PCs want more acceptance because it means less hassle for them. The more DMs push for them to be protected in cities, the more acceptance they're going to get, because there's less actions that can be taken against them. And you... could go against the grain as some holy paladin character on the warpath if you'd like to have no fun doing anything and deal with the worst elements of RP on the regular. Or. You can just. Treat warlocks like they're any other PC until they do something stupid enough to stab them over.

So yeah, just. Accept the warlock acceptance of the times. Because that's what's being pushed. Their pacts don't matter right now, and I'm not going to tank my RP to make that happen.

So uh, no. I'm not going to find a way to deal with it. I am going to do the opposite. I am going to deal with it as little as I possibly can.

[Nobs]

Sounds like there now is a cost for paladins and sutch working for a corupt king/queen in a vile city.

LOL, you say that as if there's a choice. Oh sure, we human characters could go live in Bendir where there is 0 influence from DMs on how to govern their settlement. Or Brog. Or Myon. But the truth is these Settlements aren't for humans and that is 100% abundantly clear and the RP style of each settlement is -very- different too. So then you're left with Cordor or Guldorand. Both of which are heavily influenced by DM/Dev/Admin direction. The Founder's Council and Charter is a constant reminder that it doesn't matter if you're an outcast, pirate, animator etc. Because you're protected by the laws. Equally the Cordor Palace consistently makes the decisions to force players into normalising and accepting these characters. What's left? Leave a settlement. Sure, it's an option too. And then you get 0 RP because the majority of RP happens in Settlements.

My point is the same as Choof's and a few others here. When you, as DM/Devs/Admins normalise these things then you will naturally see changes to the way people treat these sorts of characters and what they do or don't feel empowered to do against them.

And absolutely I will once more call out that I don't get where this stigma on Cordor killing everyone comes from. It simply doesn't happen.

There is also Westcliff and the RH HQ where you could fall back to and think about the next moves to make.
Or just stay and try to fight the powers that be any way. (Sounds like a epic hero tale in the make to me)
You are a realy good rper and im sure you could think of something cool.

[perseid]

Sounds like there now is a cost for paladins and sutch working for a corupt king/queen in a vile city.

LOL, you say that as if there's a choice. Oh sure, we human characters could go live in Bendir where there is 0 influence from DMs on how to govern their settlement. Or Brog. Or Myon. But the truth is these Settlements aren't for humans and that is 100% abundantly clear and the RP style of each settlement is -very- different too. So then you're left with Cordor or Guldorand. Both of which are heavily influenced by DM/Dev/Admin direction. The Founder's Council and Charter is a constant reminder that it doesn't matter if you're an outcast, pirate, animator etc. Because you're protected by the laws. Equally the Cordor Palace consistently makes the decisions to force players into normalising and accepting these characters. What's left? Leave a settlement. Sure, it's an option too. And then you get 0 RP because the majority of RP happens in Settlements.

My point is the same as Choof's and a few others here. When you, as DM/Devs/Admins normalise these things then you will naturally see changes to the way people treat these sorts of characters and what they do or don't feel empowered to do against them.

And absolutely I will once more call out that I don't get where this stigma on Cordor killing everyone comes from. It simply doesn't happen.

There is also Westcliff and the RH HQ where you could fall back to and think about the next moves to make.
Or just stay and try to fight the powers that be any way. (Sounds like a epic hero tale in the make to me)
You are a realy good rper and im sure you could think of something cool.

Fighting the powers that be means fighting the dms. You'll get crushed and no one wants to waste their time on a one direction plotline. I'd also point out that Westcliff has repeatedly been acknowledged as on the chopping block hence why it continues to have stuff cut out over time. Paint said it best, you're not going to see new epic storylines manifest you're just going to see people come up with handwaved reasons for their characters to stop caring because it's not worth being invested in.

[Nobs]

No chance of succes doesnt meen it cant be fun to try any way.

[Xerah]

Warlocks can be neutral too. They’re all not evil. Just because they made an agreement with something that is evil doesn’t make them evil. A person can sell their soul to hell for power and not have to do evil. That devil will be more than happy to collect upon death.

Additionally, tolerating warlocks seems pretty lore appropriate. If they’re not breaking laws of the city they’re in, then they not killed on sight. Sure, the guard might be more likely to blame the warlock or bring them in for questioning but that doesn’t mean they’re exiled, just means it’s more of a pain to live there. That’s far more interesting than complaining the DMs are making you friends (which they don’t seem to be doing). Its really the same for any character, no matter the class.

[Paint]

For the record, Xerah, I think Irongron's comment earlier in the conversation might be what have helped sparked more debate about this;

Back in the days of yore my issue with Warlock wasn't the mechanical power (though the very first blast was off the charts), but the awful cost becoming one would not be reflected, either in the RP of the individual players (frankly a great many characters are so full of themselves and their own general awesomeness it was hard to imagine them RPing fear of their patron, and less still the lack of free will that comes with the pact), or by the mechanics themselves.

In the latter of these two cases we really don't do anything at all, so in reality the 'price' of such power is nonexistent. For a time I was in favour of a quest-like system whereby warlocks would actually be required to commit atrocities and other heinous acts in game, on behalf their patron, but in reality this could quickly become stale when coded, and I would much, much prefer it was reflected in the roleplay.

My worry? That it hasn't been, and that being a warlock is now so uncontroversial as to barely cause any scandal whatsoever.

An that's essentially my stance on their mechanical power - it's exactly what the pact was intended to bestow, so for me it is no problem.

If, of course, the price carried real in-game consequences.

I've been beating my chest about those real in-game consequences being peeled back, and I very much think that giving warlocks goofy mechanical hurdles to overcome isn't going to result in fun roleplay but just more hoops for warlock players to needlessly jump through. On that same coin, nobody is incentivized right now to make warlocks feel like warlocks. To provide that setting consistency.

I sure as hell don't feel like I should bother, anyways.

The thing is, the fun part is the tension there. The jockeying for power and acceptance is more interesting to me than it just being a done deal. The DMs' decrees in Cordor and Guldorand have made what could be interesting and rife with conflict and philosophy... a moot point. So I'll spend my energy elsewhere, RPing in conflicts that can change and evolve, and with characters and situations that can grow. No sense beating your head against a brick wall. I don't think it's very fun at all.

[perseid]

For the record, Xerah, I think Irongron's comment earlier in the conversation might be what have helped sparked more debate about this;

Back in the days of yore my issue with Warlock wasn't the mechanical power (though the very first blast was off the charts), but the awful cost becoming one would not be reflected, either in the RP of the individual players (frankly a great many characters are so full of themselves and their own general awesomeness it was hard to imagine them RPing fear of their patron, and less still the lack of free will that comes with the pact), or by the mechanics themselves.

In the latter of these two cases we really don't do anything at all, so in reality the 'price' of such power is nonexistent. For a time I was in favour of a quest-like system whereby warlocks would actually be required to commit atrocities and other heinous acts in game, on behalf their patron, but in reality this could quickly become stale when coded, and I would much, much prefer it was reflected in the roleplay.

My worry? That it hasn't been, and that being a warlock is now so uncontroversial as to barely cause any scandal whatsoever.

An that's essentially my stance on their mechanical power - it's exactly what the pact was intended to bestow, so for me it is no problem.

If, of course, the price carried real in-game consequences.

I've been beating my chest about those real in-game consequences being peeled back, and I very much think that giving warlocks goofy mechanical hurdles to overcome isn't going to result in fun roleplay but just more hoops for warlock players to needlessly jump through. On that same coin, nobody is incentivized right now to make warlocks feel like warlocks. To provide that setting consistency.

I sure as hell don't feel like I should bother, anyways.

The thing is, the fun part is the tension there. The jockeying for power and acceptance is more interesting to me than it just being a done deal. The DMs' decrees in Cordor and Guldorand have made what could be interesting and rife with conflict and philosophy... a moot point. So I'll spend my energy elsewhere, RPing in conflicts that can change and evolve, and with characters and situations that can grow. No sense beating your head against a brick wall. I don't think it's very fun at all.

To build on this, I think I'd feel less of the same myself if it had just been Guldorand OR Cordor (though I think Guldorand would have been more appropriate) but with decrees in both it's frankly not interesting to consider any avenue besides just acquiescing to the times.