Wiz & Sorc Adjustments

[Anomandaris]

I wanted to say thank you for a much needed (and quick) adjustment in response to community feedback on Wiz/Sorc balance.

I think they were great changes that added some unique mechanical benefit in a thematically aligned way. Also it was nice that the changes were meaningful, but didn't go too far.

I think there's still some balancing to do to bring some casters to parity, but it's better to chip away at this sort of thing than go too far with one push.

I'm still hoping concentration gets a look at as that could be another way to bring action economy closer to parity with martials without a giant overhaul of anything in particular.

[AstralUniverse]

I just wanna know if the 33 cl vs dispels also applies to buffs I cast on my party.

wizard summer is coming...

[Kalthariam]

Be nifty if caster clerics got the same treatment. NGL.

I do have question:

If a Class Synergizes with Wizard / Sorcer, and you are only a level 20 in one of those classes, does the synergy push them up as qualifying as 21 or higher?

[Security_Blanket]

Is it only wizard caster levels taken into account for the 33 cap or do arcane caster levels stack with the Wizard levels? Zhent Naug Adar/Harper Mage/SD Shadowmage.

[Jencent]

Is it only wizard caster levels taken into account for the 33 cap or do arcane caster levels stack with the Wizard levels? Zhent Naug Adar/Harper Mage/SD Shadowmage.

Also PM...

[Naghast]

I wouldn't go as far as to say "wizard summer is coming" but the sheer fact that i can buff my allies without them running away from me or politely asking me to make distance because my buffs are easier to dispel than their potions is a big improvement imo.

Pureclassed wizard getting cl 33 vs dispels is... Interesting, admittedly.
I did not expected anyone to break the rule of "dispel cl caps at 30". But here we are.

I'll have to see how it performs in the end. Tbh i don't expect that to stick.

[Mamma ama Warlock]

Thank you! It is indeed a welcome and long-awaited change. Hopefully Cloistered Cleric receives the same treatment as well, as the most castery of caster clerics

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Tbh i don't expect that to stick.

Me either, it's pretty game breaking lol.

[Kythana]

I'm not a fan of allies getting their buffs at 33 CL versus dispel if it comes from a pure classed wizard. It incentivizes cheesy stuff like getting buffed by the wizard, who then stays out of the fighting to avoid dying and everyone losing their giga buffs.

To give some perspective:

33 CL buffs have a 10% chance to be removed by a greater dispel/mords with epic spell focus: abjuration.

33 CL buffs cannot be dispelled by a paladin.

An Abjurant champion can dispel at most 2 buffs per Mords.
Other spellsword paths can dispel one 33 CL buff per Mords.

It's fine if the wizard's buffs on themselves are this strong, but it should not apply to allies.

[Sincra]

The CL + 3 only effects wizard spells and requires wizard levels at and above 21.
The dispel cap requires levels at or above 28 wizard.

[Kalthariam]

It's kinda nice that there is an incentive, even if a small one, to pure class for Casters.

[Arigard]

An Abjurant champion can dispel at most 2 buffs per Mords.
Other spellsword paths can dispel one 33 CL buff per Mords.

Plus the five spells that also get breached, you mean.

[Kythana]

An Abjurant champion can dispel at most 2 buffs per Mords.
Other spellsword paths can dispel one 33 CL buff per Mords.

Plus the five spells that also get breached, you mean.

No, I don't. Dispel != Breach.

[MartialHag]

An Abjurant champion can dispel at most 2 buffs per Mords.
Other spellsword paths can dispel one 33 CL buff per Mords.

Plus the five spells that also get breached, you mean.

No, I don't. Dispel != Breach.

Mords dispels AND Breaches, it's the whole point of the Spell being so good/mandatory. SS are overtuned as is so I don't see a problem with them being unable to dispel a huge amount of Buffs with a single casting of Mords (though this is besides the point).

Pure Wiz had nothing going for it, outside of Wild Mage, while having to sacrifice a lot. Now they got very hard to remove Buffs going for them. The most important of Buffs are on the Breach List anyways and since Mords has the highest amount of breaches I fail to see the precise problem...

[satan]

The CL + 3 only effects wizard spells and requires wizard levels at and above 21.
The dispel cap requires levels at or above 28 wizard.

What about PMs. They already get nerfed caster levels for every school but necromancy, and get very little mechanically in return(the reason why wiz pm was already unpopular)

Now they are even worse compared to vanilla wizards because they also are worse vs dispels.

Can we get some necromancer love?

[Someone Lost]

I'd say this would fit cloistered like mentioned before.

[Curve]

players: we need wiz buffs
devs: here wiz buffs
players: we need cleric, pm, zhent, harper buffs

[Security_Blanket]

players: we need wiz buffs
devs: here wiz buffs
players: we need cleric, pm, zhent, harper buffs

We are inching in the right direction, but yes, a few extra caster levels against dispel doesn't stop mister Great Axe from chopping me in half with one lucky crit. But as was said, I'd also much rather see incremental changes over taking it too far and having to back peddle.

[Irongron]

We are inching in the right direction, but yes, a few extra caster levels against dispel doesn't stop mister Great Axe from chopping me in half with one lucky crit. But as was said, I'd also much rather see incremental changes over taking it too far and having to back peddle.

With this (wizard) change I really wasn't thinking of PvP, though I know it's what many think of first. I was actually asking team to help find a way for wizards to cross class more easily - I find skills a real fun factor and wizards have a hard time taking advantage of that. I believe my first suggestion was to have some CL scaling for Specialist.

With Sorcerers I was a lot more hesitant about giving them a similar CL vs Dispel ability as it's hard to balance around all those charisma-based classes.

[Kalthariam]

One day 20 Sorcerer 10 RDD will be more than just a meme.

It's one of the only two classes that allows you to even take the class and it has no synergy. Q_Q

[Paint]

Any big PVP changes to wizard and sorcerer are going to have to be agonized over. There's no quick fix for wizard or sorc that's not just going to be backpedaling or make PVP more approachable for wizard or sorc.

I am a little worried by the implication that there'll be CL 30 wizards out there giving buffs to people that are dispel-checked against CL 33, though. That has serious PVP implications.

[Spriggan Bride]

Most other charisma classes now limit divine might and shield synergy. Maybe if sorcerer did too there could be ways to give it more flavor.

[Mamma ama Warlock]

With this (wizard) change I really wasn't thinking of PvP, though I know it's what many think of first. I was actually asking team to help find a way for wizards to cross class more easily - I find skills a real fun factor and wizards have a hard time taking advantage of that. I believe my first suggestion was to have some CL scaling for Specialist.

With Sorcerers I was a lot more hesitant about giving them a similar CL vs Dispel ability as it's hard to balance around all those charisma-based classes.

That is an amazing change in it's simplicity, and how much it enables for wizards. Pure PVP power asides, it opens the doors to various fun and exciting builds for different species to take advantage of. Like, for example, juggling the bonus feats and going for an abjurer wizard/loremaster/specialist as a drow. It has a lot of cool tricks up its sleeve, without sacrificing major chunks of your toolkit.

Hopefully in the future Sorcerers also get a touch up and receive subclasses. The charisma spellcasting is a bit behind what wizards can do thematically (ban divine synergy unless specificall permitted by the subclass plz, that single thing makes warlock so much more than EB+div dip)

Most other charisma classes now limit divine might and shield synergy. Maybe if sorcerer did too there could be ways to give it more flavor.

Yes, this exact interaction. Hopefully it is disabled if Sorcerers get a rework. Div synergy stifles diversity.

[AstralUniverse]

We are inching in the right direction, but yes, a few extra caster levels against dispel doesn't stop mister Great Axe from chopping me in half with one lucky crit. But as was said, I'd also much rather see incremental changes over taking it too far and having to back peddle.

With this (wizard) change I really wasn't thinking of PvP, though I know it's what many think of first.

Actually, I think most mechanics savvy players would never assume this update was done with pvp in mind.
Think about the wizard, who didnt invest in Discipline, so they can give their party as powerful buffs as possible, not even participating in the battle at all, not entering any risk of getting KDed by Thomas Castemont, not even having to be online, now making their allies semi dispel immune almost, with 33 cl vs dispels while they raid Cordor.

If that was done with pvp in mind, it was an awful idea.

[Naghast]

That's a very oddly specific example