Ears as trophies and names

[-stick-]

Would be cool if only the name will go away and the player is left with a generic head of the race.

For example if you kill and half orc player after the 24/48 hour period the head joins the pile of half orcs and you could show your stack of heads and brag about being an orc/elf/drow slayer or simply sell it to the bounty collector.

[Peacewhisper]

Speaking as someone with an inventory full of ears who enjoys PVP, I think the trophy system is fine as it is. I would not like to see it removed because then we'd have scenarios where level 15 characters can claim they went to Anundor and killed 50 drow, or say they beat the best PVPer in town and we'd just be forced to take their word for it. The endless arguments about who killed who and DM reports that would result from having no trophy system and people lying about the results of PVP for false valor would cause a lot more drama than the few instances mentioned (which happened years ago, probably on Skal) previously in this thread. Also, if ten of your ears are in somebody's inventory, I'd say it might be time for a MoD because you're probably not role playing taking death seriously enough to avoid it. In the few rare instances where people are abusing trophies to grief or harass others or blatantly breaking immersion, report them. We have a wonderful DM team that can handle it.

[Azensor]

Speaking as someone with an inventory full of ears who enjoys PVP, I think the trophy system is fine as it is. I would not like to see it removed because then we'd have scenarios where level 15 characters can claim they went to Anundor and killed 50 drow, or say they beat the best PVPer in town and we'd just be forced to take their word for it. The endless arguments about who killed who and DM reports that would result from having no trophy system and people lying about the results of PVP for false valor would cause a lot more drama than the few instances mentioned (which happened years ago, probably on Skal) previously in this thread. Also, if ten of your ears are in somebody's inventory, I'd say it might be time for a MoD because you're probably not role playing taking death seriously enough to avoid it. In the few rare instances where people are abusing trophies to grief or harass others or blatantly breaking immersion, report them. We have a wonderful DM team that can handle it.

Just going to comment on a little of the last bit.
"Also, if ten of your ears are in somebody's inventory, I'd say it might be time for a MoD because you're probably not role playing taking death seriously enough to avoid it."

Or maybe turbo McGee has a hardon for killing said person and does the bare minimum to be considered roleplay and knows their build well enough mechanically to gank them every 24hr succesfully. forcing mod on someone for getting killed repeatedly is bit daft imo, that could easily be abused and from prior memory would have been abused by atlest two of the 'pvp' factions i knew of in the past.

[Shadowy Reality]

Speaking as someone with an inventory full of ears who enjoys PVP, I think the trophy system is fine as it is. I would not like to see it removed because then we'd have scenarios where level 15 characters can claim they went to Anundor and killed 50 drow, or say they beat the best PVPer in town and we'd just be forced to take their word for it. The endless arguments about who killed who and DM reports that would result from having no trophy system and people lying about the results of PVP for false valor would cause a lot more drama than the few instances mentioned (which happened years ago, probably on Skal) previously in this thread. Also, if ten of your ears are in somebody's inventory, I'd say it might be time for a MoD because you're probably not role playing taking death seriously enough to avoid it. In the few rare instances where people are abusing trophies to grief or harass others or blatantly breaking immersion, report them. We have a wonderful DM team that can handle it.

This is precisely why the trophy system is bad. Because it is used to gloat and prove ICly how much of a good fighter one is. You don't need the trophy system for this, you don't need a way to verify someone's claims, believe them based on reputation or don't.

You also don't need any trophy to prove to DMs anything, they are more t han capable of figuring who killed who.

[D4wN]

Speaking as someone with an inventory full of ears who enjoys PVP, I think the trophy system is fine as it is. I would not like to see it removed because then we'd have scenarios where level 15 characters can claim they went to Anundor and killed 50 drow, or say they beat the best PVPer in town and we'd just be forced to take their word for it. The endless arguments about who killed who and DM reports that would result from having no trophy system and people lying about the results of PVP for false valor would cause a lot more drama than the few instances mentioned (which happened years ago, probably on Skal) previously in this thread. Also, if ten of your ears are in somebody's inventory, I'd say it might be time for a MoD because you're probably not role playing taking death seriously enough to avoid it. In the few rare instances where people are abusing trophies to grief or harass others or blatantly breaking immersion, report them. We have a wonderful DM team that can handle it.

Why would you be forced to take their word for it? There have been plenty of times I killed someone and didn't take their trophy. Someone said it earlier in the thread, you have to build up reputation to become believable. You really don't have to or be feel you are forced to take anyone's word on anything if you choose not to or not want to.

As for being forced an MOD when someone has your ear ten times? I'd say that person who is killing the other and collecting their ear ten times would like need an MoD because that simply sounds like griefing to me.

[Peacewhisper]

To those who quoted me, please re-read the last two sentences of my previous post. I made it abundantly clear that if someone is abusing the trophy system to grief or harass others, that they should be reported. Naming off rare and reportable scenarios that would still happen if trophies were to be removed, is not changing my opinion on this. I would rather have a trophy system that gives us concrete proof of our deeds, than to constantly deal with naysayers and liars. I shouldn't be required to be popular ICly or OOCly in order to prove that I killed someone. That just opens all kinds of doors for groups of players to metagame even more than they already do and I don't want to deal with that.

[MissEvelyn]

I think opening this path again would be a mistake, why would this NPC even record who the killer was. Kelemvor/Jergal only care about who has died, and maybe how, but they don't need to know who the killer is.

Why are we trying to add scripted, mechanical ways for this when it can be roleplayed out. If you killed someone you don't need a mechanical item to prove unequivocally you killed your target, people will have to take your word for it.

Trophies were always a terrible way for all the reasons mentioned here, if we are going in any direction it should be in removing them entirely. Roleplay it out. You want people to believe you, build a reputation.

Mechanical systems like these will be abused and the death amnesia will be all but ignored since there would be an IC way to check if you had been killed or not.

The only exception to this should be The Guild. Their book should tell who they have assassinated, simply a name and date, nothing else. Letting employers know their contract has been completed, as currently there is no way to tell.

+1
I couldn't have articulated that better myself.

I agree. Not only is it silly from an RP angle, but it's also just leads to a very toxic gamey kind of mindset.

I'd rather just have no trophies.

Absolutely agreed. Removal of player trophies would have zero negative consequences for quality of Roleplay. If anything, I'd wager it would do something positive for the server.

[Arigard]

Is it a it weird that people are IDing ears? I suppose - but diviners exist, magic exists, there's been IC explanations thought up for far weirder things happening. That is not to say it's a perfect system. I fully believe rethinking the trophy system, would create more oppurtunity to encourage better faith roleplay and more engaging, nuanced scenes (see ideas below).

I firmly believe that removing ears (or should I say a trophy in general) will do absolutely zero to improve RP quality, because removing mechanics does not somehow miraculously make a bad actor somehow stop being a bad actor. Removing the beast belt did not somehow reprogram Paladin players who were skirting the rules to gain a mechanical advantage against the RP of their class - It just gave them less oppurtunity to out themselves - which I personally think should have been leant into.

The elephant in the room in this discussion IMHO is that there is varying tolerance around evidence of defeat existing within a RP setting. People don't like to lose and they especially don't like to be reminded of it. The idea that a trophy may exist, in someone's chest, or quarters, or pinned to wall for eternity? Even less so - this to me is the main problem with trophies - but instead of pushing to remove a perfectly useful and benefitial IC arbitration mechanic, perhaps we should instead be finding an elegant solution to solve the above problem - that still allows for scenes to end cleanly on both sides.

Foreseeable Problem 1

Without a trophy mechanic, you have no access to definitive passive proof. Without definitive passive proof, you need active proof, which means an audience that can back up your claims. So, do people start to bring more numbers? Do they try and now prioritise public acts? Even these are still not definitive. Let us put aside that there is actually zero IC reason why a trophy cannot be taken from a body and extrapolate that a system that does not allow an individual to achieve proof, is going to have the opposite effect in terms of encouraging gank squards and zergs, even to kill one singular person - if they are specifically being asked IC to provide such.

Foreseeable Problem 2

Bad faith actors will actively try to rewrite the RP record, to try to protect their ego OOC and without definitive IC proof, players are only left with OOC proof - logs, videos, screenshots and we all know how quickly that RP scene is going to descend into OOC hostility, DM reports and more work.

The more unbelievable the event and the more certain players have to lose, the more likely IC will be targeted for retconning and pressure will be exerted OOC for this to happen. I've seen this happen personally in conflict I've been part of, its a real thing. People aren't happy with a result and suddenly the "Hey let's do this again - or organise something that fits better with how I wanted this to go" OOC starts coming. Literally the only thing that proves something actually happened IC, is a trophy of some kind. RPing out IC that you killed someone without proof you actually did, only works if they actually stay dead - because that's your undeniable proof. When someone pops up the next day and claims ignorance that the event even happened (And in the current rules they wouldn't remember anyway), you're trying to RP the old "If a tree falls but noone is there to see it, did it happen" debate.

Foreseeable Problem 3

Opting out. Players (rightfully) have the ability to simply opt out of whatever trophy/proof gathering RP they don't want to be part of. Don't like the way a scene is unfolding and you're subdued? Simply give up and exit. Don't want to be taken prisoner, or be part of RP you're not comfortable with? You don't need to be - take the light, you no longer need to have any connection to whats going on around your characters body at all, if you do not wish to - they take an ear, or whatever trophy and we all move on. End scene.

So what happens when an irresistable force meets an immovable object sans trophies and you have one side that are desperate to get their proof (For whatever IC reason) and the other that is determined to opt out at any cost and doesn't fancy being subdualled and then taken prisoner to be dragged back to "insert ringleader paying for a message to be sent"? - you get increasing hostility and frustration on both sides OOC, both who believe they are within their own right to follow the relevant choices they are taking (and they both are) and yet, the chance of this being resolved without a whole load of OOC drama and back and forth is practically zero.

A trophy ends the above dilemma & scene immediately. One side gets to remove themselves, the other gets their definitive proof. There is no need for a neverending manhunt where both sides are fighting a battle of OOC will - either (I don't want this situation to happen) vs (I want this situation to happen). We already have enough of this with wars that break out and have no mechanical way of resolution, we don't also need it on the everyday level also, with simple conflicts between characters.

So some ideas:

• Link divination to being able to identify the ear and who it came from
• Increase DC to be able to identify, the longer the trophy has been seperate from the host
• Perhaps have something less physical? Dogtags? Papers?
• Biodegradable objects. Who wants to keep a trophy forever anyway?
• Why can't you simply leave a mark, or get some proof, without having to outright murder someone? The head issue was always weird that it was literally your head being parading in front of you. Ears are less weird, but still weird - why not find ways to encourage death to mean more, by making "being seriously injured" the norm in PvP instead of -dead-.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

If there were rules against waiving someone's head about like Astral suggested my issue with heads/ears/whatever disappears. I'm sure it's always been considered bad form, but you can't really report bad form and expect a result. I still think people will do it until someone actually gets in trouble for it, but growing pains are fine. Just as long as its growing lol.

[Aellowyn]

I find the trophy system useful and the ear the less offensive than the head, considering people can live without an ear, so seeing the person alive isn't immersion breaking as seeing their head. Still, I've also had a few questions about identifying when the ear became a thing and have since found various ways I role-play it. Someone randomly shows me an ear. "Yep, that's an ear."
They can be identified it in many methods; with ear prints (since we don't have fingers and that statue/painting has an exact replica of their ear depicted xD), diviners, all sorts of creative RP methods someone wants to think up; a magical little identifier box that confirms the ear matches the other article or piece belonging to said person, a keen eye for ear shapes, the dog familiar recognizes the smell... The role-play potential is there.

Here's one idea: Remove all trophies.
But - all successful Assassination attempts from the guild are made public.
This means that your 'trophy' because the notification from the guild saying 'Successful Assassination attempt carried out on Bob Clembrook' or whatever. [. . . ]

This is a solid concept.

Another to add to it, would be to have trophies, but they decay after 24 RL hours... but you can take them to the Shadovar Tradepost, and talk to a Priest of Kelemvor, who holds a copy of the "Book of the Dead". Giving him the trophy puts it in the book, which is never deleted, and anyone can search the book for a name. When that name is found in the book, it lists whoever handed in a trophy from that name's corpse, and whoever's trophies that name has handed in. [. . .]

As fun as I'd find having a book, killing someone does not allow one to know their name. A book with names would unfortunately become an easy way to "Out" people that use personas, allowing their names to be read, scried and known, when they have gone through precautions. With a trophy, Stevem a.k.a "Bobz" is known by Sally. Sally is a diviner, gets the ear, tells Killer "This is Stevem's ear."

Removing, or constricting methods to gain trophies, identify, etc., may open some doors to RP, like hiring more assassins, being forced to build rapport through other means, however... Sometimes killing a person is not a guild thing, it's personal and showing proof to someone is personal.

• Not charming enough to get people to like or believe them, so kill someone and flaunt their floppy ear/finger to get believed? Great! "I'm unlikable, a liar, disbelieved by everyone because I'm scum, but look, I killed your someone and here's their ear! Take it to a diviner if you don't believe me!" They could still be disbelieved, but now there's something undeniable that can stir the other to investigate.
• "Go kill Soandso as proof of your loyalty." Get the ear, the person divines it.
• "You do this and I kill your friend." They do it, vengeful person kills their friend sends them the ear in a box. Gross.
• Scout says he killed 5 drow, brings back 5 ears to their Captain.
• Someone wants to infiltrate an organization and earn trust by providing "proof"? Flashes some trophies.

I like the impact of the "physical" trophy item. The server has all these other role-play items available to provide visual and physical presence. For me, the trophies are the same, just a player piece.

Perhaps a decay timer to avoid people hoarding 20 over the months, if that's an issue... though, my monster character wants an ear belt... I'd also settle for a finger necklace.

[Azensor]

-snip-

Could do something like have trophies has they currently are, with the name/info tied to them but put a decay timer on them and if you want to keep the trophie you have to dry it/shrink it though then it'd lose the name/info on it

[Naghast]

Proposal: similar to how there's a tag displayed in your description about amount of bodies you carry, also display a tag about amount of ears you carry.

[D4wN]

I think my main concern isn't really whether there are trophies or that the trophies are ears but more having name tags associated to them. I think the diviner or someone with high spot being able to identify who they'd belong to (provided they know the person) is fine. In my opinion, ideally the ear would only show a race tag and not a name.

I did enjoy the diviner idea, so I might just go with that for the time being.

[Peacewhisper]

Proposal: similar to how there's a tag displayed in your description about amount of bodies you carry, also display a tag about amount of ears you carry.

Lets do this. I can't wait to see people's reactions of shock, horror, and disgust when they see my character ear-maxing.

[Peacewhisper]

I think my main concern isn't really whether there are trophies or that the trophies are ears but more having name tags associated to them. I think the diviner or someone with high spot being able to identify who they'd belong to (provided they know the person) is fine. In my opinion, ideally the ear would only show a race tag and not a name.

I did enjoy the diviner idea, so I might just go with that for the time being.

Big Bad Evil Guy: I command you, go to Cordor, and slay Tommy!
Minion: Sure thing boss!
Minion: goes to Cordor, slays Timmy
Minion: returns to evil lair I did it boss! See! shows ear
Big Bad Evil Guy: Good job my minion, as a reward I give you your very own black castle and six million gold coins!
Big Bad Evil Guy: proceeds to post on message boards about how Tommy got killed and how he can't even beat a minion
Everyone: Tommy is bad at fighting maybe he shouldn't be guard captain anymore.
Settlement Leader: Tommy, you're fired.
Tommy:
Timmy: dead noises

Do you see now why it's a bad idea to remove name tags?

[Naghast]

Couldn't Tommy just say that he wasn't even attacked though?

[Peacewhisper]

Couldn't Tommy just say that he wasn't even attacked though?

He could, but Big Bad Evil Guy is played by a long time veteran who is friends with everyone OOC and has played many legendary characters in the past who told great stories, he has a VERY good reputation and nobody would ever believe that he would lie about a PVP! Tommy just started playing a month ago.

Edit: And just to clarify, Big Bad Evil Guy is not even purposefully lying here, he was lied to by his Minion and had no mechanical way of knowing he was being lied to because we removed name tags from ears. So a player who would have normally been a good sport and scolded his minion for killing the wrong person has now falsely slandered his opponent by mistake and caused a whole bunch of drama and hurt feelings all around. All because we had to hide the truth of the matter to protect some people's feelings.

[D4wN]

I think my main concern isn't really whether there are trophies or that the trophies are ears but more having name tags associated to them. I think the diviner or someone with high spot being able to identify who they'd belong to (provided they know the person) is fine. In my opinion, ideally the ear would only show a race tag and not a name.

I did enjoy the diviner idea, so I might just go with that for the time being.

Big Bad Evil Guy: I command you, go to Cordor, and slay Tommy!
Minion: Sure thing boss!
Minion: goes to Cordor, slays Timmy
Minion: returns to evil lair I did it boss! See! shows ear
Big Bad Evil Guy: Good job my minion, as a reward I give you your very own black castle and six million gold coins!
Big Bad Evil Guy: proceeds to post on message boards about how Tommy got killed and how he can't even beat a minion
Everyone: Tommy is bad at fighting maybe he shouldn't be guard captain anymore.
Settlement Leader: Tommy, you're fired.
Tommy:
Timmy: dead noises

Do you see now why it's a bad idea to remove name tags?

I don't no. Because the name tag is an OOC thing. Just like name tags on fixtures are OOC as well. At least this is what I have been told by DMs in the past. Before you give away a castle and gold, you could find a diviner and have them validate the ear truly did belong to Tommy and not Timmy. It would generate even more RP and get others involved. They could identify the ear much like you could use Lore to identify items.

[Peacewhisper]

I don't no. Because the name tag is an OOC thing. Just like name tags on fixtures are OOC as well. At least this is what I have been told by DMs in the past. Before you give away a castle and gold, you could find a diviner and have them validate the ear truly did belong to Tommy and not Timmy. It would generate even more RP and get others involved. They could identify the ear much like you could use Lore to identify items.

How is the diviner supposed to know who it was if there isn't a name? Contact a DM and have them scour through the logs? Unless a whole new system is added so that diviners can actually identify ears without having to contact and wait on a DM I don't think removing name tags is a good idea. Sometimes we need to be informed OOC so that if someone does try something stupid like the minion in the hypothetical example I gave, they can be called out on it before it snowballs out of control and hurts a bunch of other innocent people. I would rather players have the tools and information to police each other's behavior than have to rely on DM's all the time. Name tags on ears are a way of keeping people honest. If name tags are taken away and this server's PVP meta becomes some OOC machiavellian contest to see who can tell the biggest lies I will straight up quit.

[D4wN]

I don't no. Because the name tag is an OOC thing. Just like name tags on fixtures are OOC as well. At least this is what I have been told by DMs in the past. Before you give away a castle and gold, you could find a diviner and have them validate the ear truly did belong to Tommy and not Timmy. It would generate even more RP and get others involved. They could identify the ear much like you could use Lore to identify items.

How is the diviner supposed to know who it was if there isn't a name? Contact a DM and have them scour through the logs? Unless a whole new system is added so that diviners can actually identify ears without having to contact and wait on a DM I don't think removing name tags is a good idea. Sometimes we need to be informed OOC so that if someone does try something stupid like the minion in the hypothetical example I gave, they can be called out on it before it snowballs out of control and hurts a bunch of other innocent people. I would rather players have the tools and information to police each other's behavior than have to rely on DM's all the time. Name tags on ears are a way of keeping people honest. If name tags are taken away and this server's PVP meta becomes some OOC machiavellian contest to see who can tell the biggest lies I will straight up quit.

Like I suggested, have them be able to identify it like Lore can be used to identify items. You examine it and it shows you the name. This wouldn't at all rely on DMs, nor was that a suggestion

[Peacewhisper]

Like I suggested, have them be able to identify it like Lore can be used to identify items. You examine it and it shows you the name. This wouldn't at all rely on DMs, nor was that a suggestion

If the devs want to code some system like that, I'd be fine with it, long as ears could be identified indefinitely. What I'm against is removing the name tag entirely or having it go away after a certain period of time as others suggested. That to me just reeks of people trying to escape consequences of dying in PVP and would result in more OOC drama than I'm willing to deal with.

[D4wN]

I mean.. The consequences of dying is that you're dead, that you can't remember anything that happened and that you should be RPing the effects of said death. That should be enough of a consequence. Death should be taken seriously, that's a server rule. If people are not, then you need to report them. Flaunting 'ears' at people to 'prove' you killed them, is the kind of must-win behaviour I don't think is entirely healthy personally and sort of goes against the spirit of the server.

Again, I'll say I am absolutely not against trophies/evidence of a kill. I just think a name tag on an ear is a little silly to be able to identify someone by that. That was more the point of this thread and I was interested to hear how people RP this now and what ideas they might have.

[Peacewhisper]

I mean.. The consequences of dying is that you're dead, that you can't remember anything that happened and that you should be RPing the effects of said death. That should be enough of a consequence. Death should be taken seriously, that's a server rule. If people are not, then you need to report them. Flaunting 'ears' at people to 'prove' you killed them, is the kind of must-win behaviour I don't think is entirely healthy personally and sort of goes against the spirit of the server.

Again, I'll say I am absolutely not against trophies/evidence of a kill. I just think a name tag on an ear is a little silly to be able to identify someone by that. That was more the point of this thread and I was interested to hear how people RP this now and what ideas they might have.

I don't think I have seen a single case of someone showing someone else their own ear to gloat about killing them, it is usually used to verify kills among peers and to superiors in order for a character to gain clout in a faction or settlement. I've had encounters with characters whom mine already collected an ear from, instead of showing it to them to gloat or killing them again I gave them an out and sent them on their way because I thought it would be silly to collect two ears from the same character. Most PVPers tend to be good sports on both sides, and those that aren't, don't tend to last too long.

As someone mentioned, it used to be heads instead of ears, that made a lot more sense to identify someone, but it was changed because a few bad actors had to abuse it and break people's immersion. People immediately recognizing ears now is probably just a leftover habit from back when it was heads. I think ears as trophy is fine, it harkens back to the old days of Diablo 2 and serves its purpose. If devs want to expand on it and lock identifying who they belong to behind divination for RP purposes I'm fine with that. I'm also fine if they want to make it display how many ears our characters carry when examined. Actually I wish they would do that so we could see who the real badasses are.

[Kythana]

I don't think I have seen a single case of someone showing someone else their own ear to gloat about killing them, it is usually used to verify kills among peers and to superiors in order for a character to gain clout in a faction or settlement.

Funny. I've never seen a single case of someone showing an ear to verify kills. It's almost entirely to gloat about how much of a great pvper they think they are, by having numerous ears of level 10s, or the occasional level 30.

Almost anyone worth killing that people care about is quickly discovered through word of mouth, and the equally as annoying mass boardposting.

Maybe this is an Andunor problem(And given the reputation that the Underdark has for toxic pvp, it wouldn't surprise me) but I've never encountered a singular situation in which an ear was shown to a superior that was met with praise.

In fact, I've witnessed the opposite, where the ear collecting trophy hoarder is treated as the in character psychopath they are, and told to dispose of the rotting flesh they're hauling around.

And those characters tend to stay at pretty low ranks, with minimal clout.

[D4wN]

I'm also fine if they want to make it display how many ears our characters carry when examined. Actually I wish they would do that so we could see who the real badasses are.

The fact you think carrying an array of ears/trophies on you for having killed a large amount of other players makes you a badass, I think says a lot on why we disagree on this topic.