Ears as trophies and names

[D4wN]

In the past heads were severed. Ability to identify them seemed logical and legit. Although it still seemed unrealistic especially when someone waves your own head in front of your face. Which was one of the many reasons it was switched to ears.

But now I have people showing me ears with names on them and I'm supposed to know an ear belongs to 'X' or 'Y'? In reality, you can't recognize who the ear belongs to and I find it frankly immersion breaking and a little dumb that people will use ears with OOC name tags as 'evidence' of killing a certain character.

I don't know how this should be RP'd? I personally RP it that my character might recognise the race it belongs to but not who nor whether they were male or female.

I'm keen to hear what others do and how you RP when someone shows you an ear as a trophy or brags about it belonging to a specific someone. I'm also keen to hear if I am the only one who would rather not have a name tagged to the ear if that is meant to be a trophy taken from an enemy but rather limit it to just the race?

I'm really quite confused about the purpose of these trophies now.

[dominantdrowess]

I kind of agree about this, honestly. How do you identify someone by an ear?

[The GrumpyCat]

Well let's look at some options here.

1) Use ears/fingers, but that does open a slight meta thing of 'how do you know?' - personally I'd not stress it too much. It'se a little wierd that you know yeah, but I don't find it as much of an immersion break as:

2) Using severed heads, wherein the people who's head has been cut off, can cheerfully say 'Why yes, yes that head /is/ mine.' I always felt that it really cheepened death, which is much worse (to me!) than the immersion break of how you can be sure that said ear belongs to such-and-such.

3) If we remove trophies entirely, then we have the issue of having no way to 'prove' someone has been killed, which can be a useful thing narritivly. Without the trophy it really has to be done entirely on trust. And IDK? Maybe we could do that. I prefer it to the 'Severed head' option personally.

All these options have their own issues and drawback. For me the ear option (though if I'm being picky I'd personally prefer fingers, but eh) is the least of all evils.

[Kythana]

I agree. Not only is it silly from an RP angle, but it's also just leads to a very toxic gamey kind of mindset.

I'd rather just have no trophies.

[Eyeliner]

Well let's look at some options here.
3) If we remove trophies entirely, then we have the issue of having no way to 'prove' someone has been killed, which can be a useful thing narritivly. Without the trophy it really has to be done entirely on trust. And IDK? Maybe we could do that. I prefer it to the 'Severed head' option personally.

I'd say go back to heads but they rot when the 48 hour timer after PVP is up. So you can show off your trophy for a while after a kill and when there shouldn't be any contact anyway. But trophies of any kind six months later and when that story is long over are too much.

[Security_Blanket]

Adventurers must have some sort of identification to do writs, maybe bloodied identification papers can be used as proof of the kill.

[silverpheonix]

In the past heads were severed. Ability to identify them seemed logical and legit. Although it still seemed unrealistic especially when someone waves your own head in front of your face. Which was one of the many reasons it was switched to ears.

But now I have people showing me ears with names on them and I'm supposed to know an ear belongs to 'X' or 'Y'? In reality, you can't recognize who the ear belongs to and I find it frankly immersion breaking and a little dumb that people will use ears with OOC name tags as 'evidence' of killing a certain character.

I don't know how this should be RP'd? I personally RP it that my character might recognise the race it belongs to but not who nor whether they were male or female.

I'm keen to hear what others do and how you RP when someone shows you an ear as a trophy or brags about it belonging to a specific someone. I'm also keen to hear if I am the only one who would rather not have a name tagged to the ear if that is meant to be a trophy taken from an enemy but rather limit it to just the race?

I'm really quite confused about the purpose of these trophies now.

Diviner: "Oh, yep, that body part belongs to so and so."

[The GrumpyCat]

Addendum.

I should really have added a:

4) Consider some other way to show identity of a character, that heavily insinuates their death, isn't immersion breaking, and would be identifiable as theirs.

Such a thing may exist, and I hope we can come up with something! I do think Dawn's post is absolutly valid, it /is/ wierd how we're supposed to rp identifying someone by an ear. I just find it a little less wierd than the alternative, personally.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I always thought the head thing was weird, and luckily, I haven't seen one in so long that I didn't even know it was ears now. I suppose I understand the proof of death aspect, but where I get stuck is the desire to prove you killed the person that I was just talking to across town. I always thought a better approach was to count it as a victory over person x y or z, rather than brag about killing someone on a server that allows players to respawn from pvp deaths.

Edit : Oops, proof of death in regard to hired assassins. Misread the context.

[Kalthariam]

Honestly the removal of trophies might push towards a lessening of Gank Squads, and lead to capture and executions being more common, meaning longer term conflict RP, and the possibilities of rescues.

If instead of just having an trophy drop from bashing a corpse (Which has a mechanical benefit the trophy isn't required) you'd have to find your target and subdue or Capture them and drag them back to whereever, which means you could be intercepted, you could be stopped, and it disincentivises murder squads just ganking people for "Proof" they killed X, Y, or Z, or A, B, C faction.

[Anomandaris]

Trophies are fine and do play their part. And being able to identify someone from their ear is no more unbelievable than many other things we accept for one reason or another.

[D4wN]

I don't mind trophies at all. I just think maybe there can be a better alternative to ears with name tags on them. Which.. Many times DMs state such tags are OOC for other things.

I do like the idea of using a diviner. Dream code might be that the name is not visible unless you are a diviner or maybe have high spot or lore or something.

Would you consider high spot or lore a viable reason to be able to identify someone by ear? Or could we maybe instead have like a citizen token that could be taken from a body? I.e. anyone who signs up somewhere as a citizen could carry a "token" on them with their ID? I realise that leaves people who aren't a citizen somewhere. Or maybe some other token of ID like a pin or brooch or maybe immigration papers to Arelith. I don't know, just brain dumping I guess.

I'm absolutely for being able to take something for proof of death even if I rarely do it myself, there have been occasions I have for RP purposes. So I get the sentiment behind it.

[The GrumpyCat]

Here's one idea: Remove all trophies.
But - all successful Assassination attempts from the guild are made public.
This means that your 'trophy' because the notification from the guild saying 'Successful Assassination attempt carried out on Bob Clembrook' or whatever.

This does have the nifty benefit of giving people a good reason to use the assassins guild for something other than settlment leaders.

The main downside though is it's... not terribly available to those who are more keen to rp upholding an upstanding and Good alignment.

Still - there's one small idea anyway.

[perseid]

Here's one idea: Remove all trophies.
But - all successful Assassination attempts from the guild are made public.
This means that your 'trophy' because the notification from the guild saying 'Successful Assassination attempt carried out on Bob Clembrook' or whatever.

This does have the nifty benefit of giving people a good reason to use the assassins guild for something other than settlment leaders.

The main downside though is it's... not terribly available to those who are more keen to rp upholding an upstanding and Good alignment.

Still - there's one small idea anyway.

Just tossing out some ideas but why not some kind of legal document (but smaller than the item I'd the same name) or race specific trophy? Examples of racial trophies being elf ears, halfling toes, dwarven beards, diminutive orc teeth (half orcs), bloodied feathers (Kenku/Avariel), and some generic options to serve as catch-alls for niche races. Alternatively, some examples of pcs dropping a settlement appropriate document on death could be adventurer company papers (if carrying writ docs), citizenship papers (if not carrying a writ doc), waterlogged share receipt (pirate), bloody collar (slave, though awkward cause if collars only show master names), etc.

[Shadowy Reality]

Here's one idea: Remove all trophies.
But - all successful Assassination attempts from the guild are made public.
This means that your 'trophy' because the notification from the guild saying 'Successful Assassination attempt carried out on Bob Clembrook' or whatever.

This does have the nifty benefit of giving people a good reason to use the assassins guild for something other than settlment leaders.

The main downside though is it's... not terribly available to those who are more keen to rp upholding an upstanding and Good alignment.

Still - there's one small idea anyway.

On this note, the Assassin's Guild has a book in the public area that upon examination says it holds the names of those who have been killed. This would be the way to implement that. When a contract is successfully carried out, the name of the victim and a date is added to the book.

But there seem to be two different discussions here. I don't think ears are supposed to be used as identification, only as a trophy and I think this is fine. You hire an out-of-guild 'assassin'/bounty hunter to do the job? You have to take his word for it. The Guild offers you no proof because you believe their word, through their reputation too. Let out-of-guild 'assassins' or bounty hunters have to build their reputation as well.

[AstralUniverse]

I'mma go ahead and yell that the ears are more problematic than heads.

The issue in first place is actually that players go around showing trophies in the presence of the (now alive again) victim, and thus pushing the scene into a paradoxial situation there's no right way to respond to.

If we'd stop doing that, suddenly we can use heads again and be done with the named ears.

[Rei_Jin]

Here's one idea: Remove all trophies.
But - all successful Assassination attempts from the guild are made public.
This means that your 'trophy' because the notification from the guild saying 'Successful Assassination attempt carried out on Bob Clembrook' or whatever.

This does have the nifty benefit of giving people a good reason to use the assassins guild for something other than settlement leaders.

The main downside though is it's... not terribly available to those who are more keen to rp upholding an upstanding and Good alignment.

Still - there's one small idea anyway.

This is a solid concept.

Another to add to it, would be to have trophies, but they decay after 24 RL hours... but you can take them to the Shadovar Tradepost, and talk to a Priest of Kelemvor, who holds a copy of the "Book of the Dead". Giving him the trophy puts it in the book, which is never deleted, and anyone can search the book for a name. When that name is found in the book, it lists whoever handed in a trophy from that name's corpse, and whoever's trophies that name has handed in.

Example: Bob the Murderer kills John the Innocent, and takes an ear, going to the Priest of Kelemvor in the Shadovar Tradepost to hand it over and ensure that the record of his act of murder is recorded for all time. Now, if anyone goes to the Priest of Kelemvor, and gives them the name "Bob the Murderer", it will come up with "Not killed by anyone, killer of John the Innocent."

The reason to put this in the Shadovar Tradepost is that this is a neutral ground accessible by anyone.

The reason to make it a Priest of Kelemvor, is that their job is to handle the passage of souls from this world to whatever comes next, and as such they stay out of most mortal affairs.

The reason to make the trophies decay after 24 RL hours, is that this gives an incentive for those who want others to know what they have done, to go and hand the trophy in.

The reason for it to be based on whoever hands in the trophy, not on who may have actually done the killing blow, is that it allows for subterfuge and reputation building or concealing... it would show TRUE names, not disguise names, so some folk would not want others to know they had made a kill, for example, but it could also allow for someone who is disguised to be outed, just as a speak with dead would allow you to find out the name of someone you killed if you used it on their corpse.

[D4wN]

Another to add to it, would be to have trophies, but they decay after 24 RL hours... but you can take them to the Shadovar Tradepost, and talk to a Priest of Kelemvor, who holds a copy of the "Book of the Dead". Giving him the trophy puts it in the book, which is never deleted, and anyone can search the book for a name. When that name is found in the book, it lists whoever handed in a trophy from their corpse, and whoever's trophies they have handed in.

Example: Bob the Murderer kills John the Innocent, and takes an ear, going to the Priest of Kelemvor in the Shadovar Tradepost to hand it over and ensure that the record of his act of murder is recorded for all time. Now, if anyone goes to the Priest of Kelemvor, and gives them the name "Bob the Murderer", it will come up with "Not killed by anyone, killer of John the Innocent."

The reason to put this in the Shadovar Tradepost is that this is a neutral ground accessible by anyone.

The reason to make it a Priest of Kelemvor, is that their job is to handle the passage of souls from this world to whatever comes next, and as such they stay out of most mortal affairs.

The reason to make the trophies decay after 24 RL hours, is that this gives an incentive for those who want others to know what they have done, to go and hand the trophy in.

The reason for it to be based on whoever hands in the trophy, not on who may have actually done the killing blow, is that it allows for subterfuge and reputation building or concealing... it would show TRUE names, not disguise names, so some folk would not want others to know they had made a kill, for example, but it could also allow for someone who is disguised to be outed, just as a speak with dead would allow you to find out the name of someone you killed if you used it on their corpse.

I actually really like this concept. Either Jergalite or Kelemvorite and a book.

My only fear is that this could encourage people going on a killing spree to add their name to the book as a pat on the back or some sort of Arcade competition High Score board. Taking a trophy should have RP purposes. Good ones, and not because you want to show everyone how amazing you are. Perhaps there should be some restrictions placed on it to prevent something like that happening (for example, you can only hand in 1 bounty a month or something. Just thinking out loud.) Also the ability to hand in a trophy anonymously could be an option if you don't want to expose yourself as the killer to the whole server.

I don't think it should be limited to the assassin's guild, although if that happens it may also encourage more use of it. Maybe a bounty hunter's guild or something that anyone can join could be an option as well.

[Rei_Jin]

I actually really like this concept. Either Jergalite or Kelemvorite and a book.

My only fear is that this could encourage people going on a killing spree to add their name to the book as a pat on the back or some sort of Arcade competition High Score board. Taking a trophy should have RP purposes. Good ones, and not because you want to show everyone how amazing you are. Perhaps there should be some restrictions placed on it to prevent something like that happening (for example, you can only hand in 1 bounty a month or something. Just thinking out loud.) Also the ability to hand in a trophy anonymously could be an option if you don't want to expose yourself as the killer to the whole server.

I don't think it should be limited to the assassin's guild, although if that happens it may also encourage more use of it. Maybe a bounty hunter's guild or something that anyone can join could be an option as well.

Sure, some might use it to go on a killing spree, but that also makes it really easy for folks to track them down, to have them exiled from cities, to scry them, etc. You want to be a murder-hobo? Expect that the opposition WILL hunt you down.

It also means that the "death memory loss" has a work-around, so that if someone is killed and returns from the dead, and wants to go check if their killer put their name down, they can. This adds an option for detective RP, and for follow through.

Some folk will want to remain anonymous, of course... but they won't have a trophy to show in future if they do.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The issue in first place is actually that players go around showing trophies in the presence of the (now alive again) victim, and thus pushing the scene into a paradoxial situation there's no right way to respond to.

If we'd stop doing that, suddenly we can use heads again and be done with the named ears.

This is why I initially misunderstood the context of the thread; I immediately had a flashback to five years ago or so when someone who had six heads of another still very alive character, none of which they actually took themselves, would waive them around to anyone who would look. In fact, the head carrier had been killed by the head owner a few times, the only pvp they were involved in with each other. How they got those heads, I don't know, but they did. It was all so ridiculous my character ended up coining the phrase "sea brain" to explain it away with a laugh and move on.

And while just saying "let's not do that" sounds reasonable, it requires people that can see reason for it work. And in the example above, both sides of the story had reached the point where they saw the other side as their ooc enemy rather than their ic one, making reason a lost cause.

And while it's true that I haven't seen a player's head, or ear now, in a few years...the real issue is not gone. Just recently I had someone tell me that a group of players were the type to hold grudges, because the accuser couldn't see that that made them exactly what they were accusing others of. Mind you, I never heard the people in question say anything bad about the accuser, but even if they did it doesn't change the fact that the accuser was actively trying to convince me that group x are bad people ooc, thus making themselves 100% the type to hold a "metagrudge".

This is why I think the heads are more headaches than they are worth, and perhaps something more in line with what grumpy suggested in their second post is what's called for. While I definitely can see how it could be a benefit under the right circumstances, more often than not it's a tool that makes ooc grudges an ic thing.

[D4wN]

I actually really like this concept. Either Jergalite or Kelemvorite and a book.

My only fear is that this could encourage people going on a killing spree to add their name to the book as a pat on the back or some sort of Arcade competition High Score board. Taking a trophy should have RP purposes. Good ones, and not because you want to show everyone how amazing you are. Perhaps there should be some restrictions placed on it to prevent something like that happening (for example, you can only hand in 1 bounty a month or something. Just thinking out loud.) Also the ability to hand in a trophy anonymously could be an option if you don't want to expose yourself as the killer to the whole server.

I don't think it should be limited to the assassin's guild, although if that happens it may also encourage more use of it. Maybe a bounty hunter's guild or something that anyone can join could be an option as well.

Sure, some might use it to go on a killing spree, but that also makes it really easy for folks to track them down, to have them exiled from cities, to scry them, etc. You want to be a murder-hobo? Expect that the opposition WILL hunt you down.

It also means that the "death memory loss" has a work-around, so that if someone is killed and returns from the dead, and wants to go check if their killer put their name down, they can. This adds an option for detective RP, and for follow through.

Some folk will want to remain anonymous, of course... but they won't have a trophy to show in future if they do.

You make some excellent points actually. This is by far my favourite suggestion yet and could really create a lot of RP!

[Shadowy Reality]

I think opening this path again would be a mistake, why would this NPC even record who the killer was. Kelemvor/Jergal only care about who has died, and maybe how, but they don't need to know who the killer is.

Why are we trying to add scripted, mechanical ways for this when it can be roleplayed out. If you killed someone you don't need a mechanical item to prove unequivocally you killed your target, people will have to take your word for it.

Trophies were always a terrible way for all the reasons mentioned here, if we are going in any direction it should be in removing them entirely. Roleplay it out. You want people to believe you, build a reputation.

Mechanical systems like these will be abused and the death amnesia will be all but ignored since there would be an IC way to check if you had been killed or not.

The only exception to this should be The Guild. Their book should tell who they have assassinated, simply a name and date, nothing else. Letting employers know their contract has been completed, as currently there is no way to tell.

[AstralUniverse]

The issue in first place is actually that players go around showing trophies in the presence of the (now alive again) victim, and thus pushing the scene into a paradoxial situation there's no right way to respond to.

If we'd stop doing that, suddenly we can use heads again and be done with the named ears.

This is why I initially misunderstood the context of the thread; I immediately had a flashback to five years ago or so when someone who had six heads of another still very alive character, none of which they actually took themselves, would waive them around to anyone who would look.....

... And while just saying "let's not do that" sounds reasonable, it requires people that can see reason for it work. ...

I know who you're talking about. lmao.
Also, me saying "lets not do that", I mean.. we can also put a rule that prevents people from doing that. It's not even that far off the 24h (now 48h) rule of not going to same place as the folks you fought, to avoid paradoxes. There should simply be a rule that prevents players from flashing someone's head in their presence, not for 24 or 48 hours but indefinitely. I dont even think it would be a huge hassle to enforce, compared to other more complex things we're already enforcing.

[Darkstorn42]

I have not read through all of the comments, so perhaps I am saying something that has already been said, but what about putting the identification of the individual behind a skill/feat check? Like race is medicine/lore, divination foci is aura/name, etc... similar to the tracks system, but for the trophies?

(I love all the comments about how the trophies should rot after some IRL time, and 48hrs seems perfect to let you know your timer is up)

[D4wN]

Yes, I'm also entirely for them decaying. And while I love the idea of the book, I'm also entirely happy if there are no trophies or if there are trophies that only show race and for anything more you need to be good at certain skills or have certain feats to be able to identify who it belonged to.