10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire »

Irongron wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 11:49 am

My current idea, which is no way guaranteed to happen as will require some scripting trickery, is to remove the 3 summoned blade spells from all spellbooks other than the above two.

These agro drawing wizard/sorc specific guarding summons will be locked in parry mode, sometimes true strike on a riposte and not function with associate tool. They would be very durable and suit casters who want to forego the regular summon spells and concentrate on offence casting. It would not leave them invulnerable, or offer any protection against archers or other casters but should mean when the mobs descend after casting that AoE the wizard gets some protection.

I like where you are going with this, but I also think you have to keep in mind who's likely going to use it. I suspect more often than not it's going to be Wizard specialists, namely evokers, abjurists and and transmuters, as they are the three schools that have conjuration as an enemy. With evoker, it works as intended. An Abjurist can easily use missles and the like to use it as intended, even if the flavor starts to fail, and with transmuter...Well, I don't know how good of ab they can get, but if these summons are high on defense and the ab a transmuter can get is decent enough it's going to be pretty broken for pve. Just something to keep in mind.

silverpheonix
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by silverpheonix »

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Tue May 28, 2024 9:11 am
Irongron wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 11:49 am

My current idea, which is no way guaranteed to happen as will require some scripting trickery, is to remove the 3 summoned blade spells from all spellbooks other than the above two.

These agro drawing wizard/sorc specific guarding summons will be locked in parry mode, sometimes true strike on a riposte and not function with associate tool. They would be very durable and suit casters who want to forego the regular summon spells and concentrate on offence casting. It would not leave them invulnerable, or offer any protection against archers or other casters but should mean when the mobs descend after casting that AoE the wizard gets some protection.

I like where you are going with this, but I also think you have to keep in mind who's likely going to use it. I suspect more often than not it's going to be Wizard specialists, namely evokers, abjurists and and transmuters, as they are the three schools that have conjuration as an enemy. With evoker, it works as intended. An Abjurist can easily use missles and the like to use it as intended, even if the flavor starts to fail, and with transmuter...Well, I don't know how good of ab they can get, but if these summons are high on defense and the ab a transmuter can get is decent enough it's going to be pretty broken for pve. Just something to keep in mind.

31/26.

Tenser's is mainly a niche spell to grind darts skill with.

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Naghast
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Naghast »

It's...
Not for training dart skills...

But i don't think that a tensers wiz would be op with a parry guard-summon.
Like.

As it currently stands i'm perfectly fine on defense front. What i need is more damage.

It's unironically better for me to guard my summon instead of the other way around bc blood homunculus kinda melts under pressure but i have concealment, solid ac, and renewable 160 temp hp.
And like i said, if you go str transmu specialist, you kinda may as well just go spellsword.

I guess 25/5 wizard/weaponmaster transmu spec would benefit from a parry-guard high ac summon.

Edit: i can't believe i actually wrote that.

Machado
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Machado »

I know this thing will take time, so no pressure here. Just want to ask if we have a ETA for the summoning adjustments.

Thanks.

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Naghast
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Naghast »

Just got a thought

What i'd honestly like to see is combat familiars being brought up a notch or two.

Like, pixie is cool, it has utility, but all other familiars are p much crap and that makes me sad.

And i do not subscribe to the notion of "nerf pixie and make all familiars equally crap". I think it's a horrible idea.

But, like

Maybe that high ac, caster-guarding, perma-parrymode summon could be a familiar instead?

How about some familiar with low defenses but good damage? Panther could be that. It just, to my knowledge, has really EHHHH stats, that could be bumped a bit.

Maybe pseudodragon could be some form of a damage / control split familiar? With accurate attacks, decent damage, and on-hit poison? Don't pseudodragons have a paralysing poison in tabletop?

Faerie dragon could be a more controller than damage, less damage than pseudo but more cc abilities on cooldown

Mephits and eye could be different forms of ranged blaster familiars

Hellhoud, was there a familiar like this? While panther would have good ab, and low upfront damage but good sneaks, hellhoud could have more upfront damage, less than panther with sneaks but unconditional

Just a thought.

silverpheonix
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by silverpheonix »

Naghast wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 7:27 am

And i do not subscribe to the notion of "nerf pixie and make all familiars equally crap". I think it's a horrible idea.

I agree with all your points, but this x1000 especially.

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Cagus
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Cagus »

Summons shall be supporting the gameplay, not BE the gameplay, imo.
On the other servers I played, they were always much weaker than the actual PC, and I think it is better that way. For it makes you want to group up with people. On arelith, I don't really see the reason why. If you summons are strong enough to do the end game grind dungeons and/or bosses, there is no invective to invite someone else, because you would just have to split the rewards.
Also I don't see reason, why should be some gamestyle (summoning) be more rewarding than other gamestyle (like sneak dps). One can do the end game boss, get the sweet reward from chest, the other will have problems to even get to the dungeon solo. One will never need to work with others, and still get the advantages of end game loot. I believe (but I don't have any data) that vast majority of solo dungeoneers (epic loot grinders) are some kind of summoners.
But even if you really want this to be the standardized gameplay, this is still not good solution.
I don't even know where you want to go. On one hand, you improve the spells for summon buffers (mass animal spells, stone bones made aoe - which also is bugged and buffs even enemies), on the other, you take it back. Pendulum without the vision.

Interludium: The sequencers are abomination.

I really don't get this solution. It is sloppy, not thought through, and goes against the setting logic. To be the best summoner, you don't have to be a good caster/buffer. You have to be a craftsman and spend time getting resources for crafting. This is boggling.
Why is the mundane character as good at buffing his summon (exampla gratia bg) as 30 levels of wizard, cleric, druid et sim. casters?
Why do I (as caster) need to bother with buying some **** from mundane characters?
My logic would go the other way. Make base numbers of summons lower and only when the caster buffs the summons, they go to usable level.
Why are there even these sequencers? To make the buffing faster? So just make sequencers like the sequencers should work. Item, on which I cast the spells, and when I use it (interruptible) out of fight, it will deplete casts from my spellbook and it is done.
To give casters feeling they are useless at buffing? Mission accomplished.

But back to the topic above. If you really want group of people, who play the style: log, go to the epic dungeon, click on summon spell, wait until summon gets to the end, loot, log off; there is still much better ways to do it. For sure, I would get rid of the sequencers and lowered the basic numbers. First that comes in mind is of course give summoning bonuses (like for the epic caster) for pure caster. Easiest, probably effortlessly applicable to the current state.
Lvl 21: +1
Lvl 23: +1
Lvl 25: +1
Lvl 27: +1
Lvl 28: +2
Lvl 29: +2
Lvl 30: +2
Then you will have PvE gods, who doesn't even need to be mentally present, but on the other hand, they will not be much threat in the part of the game, where it matters, which is PvP. And are generally limited.

Adding (or changing the generally useless) lower tier spells, so they contribute in summoning and give advantage to summons in some way. This will hurt spontaneous casters with limited spellbook without the option to swap. But again, you can be more creative here, like spells, which when damages enemies heals their summons, or on kill give short time (minute or so) buff to them. The gameplay doesn't have to be cast summon, use bought item from shop and spam cantrip.

Other way is to make make prestige class 5, 7, 10 lvls, which will focus on summoning, have bonus features from skill leadership for summons and many other things that people who are using summons can come up with. Not me. (Also, with the number of bugs and everything, I would say don't add new class for at least year, until all of the previous are repaired).

P.S.: Funny what half an hour of procrastination will do, I don't even have stakes in summoning, I am not currently using it, and I don't generally care about it as long as it does not effect PvP.

Naghast
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Naghast »

Cagus wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 10:30 am

Summons shall be supporting the gameplay, not BE the gameplay, imo.
On the other servers I played, they were always much weaker than the actual PC, and I think it is better that way. For it makes you want to group up with people. On arelith, I don't really see the reason why. If you summons are strong enough to do the end game grind dungeons and/or bosses, there is no invective to invite someone else, because you would just have to split the rewards.
Also I don't see reason, why should be some gamestyle (summoning) be more rewarding than other gamestyle (like sneak dps). One can do the end game boss, get the sweet reward from chest, the other will have problems to even get to the dungeon solo. One will never need to work with others, and still get the advantages of end game loot. I believe (but I don't have any data) that vast majority of solo dungeoneers (epic loot grinders) are some kind of summoners.
But even if you really want this to be the standardized gameplay, this is still not good solution.
I don't even know where you want to go. On one hand, you improve the spells for summon buffers (mass animal spells, stone bones made aoe - which also is bugged and buffs even enemies), on the other, you take it back. Pendulum without the vision.

Interludium: The sequencers are abomination.

I really don't get this solution. It is sloppy, not thought through, and goes against the setting logic. To be the best summoner, you don't have to be a good caster/buffer. You have to be a craftsman and spend time getting resources for crafting. This is boggling.
Why is the mundane character as good at buffing his summon (exampla gratia bg) as 30 levels of wizard, cleric, druid et sim. casters?
Why do I (as caster) need to bother with buying some **** from mundane characters?
My logic would go the other way. Make base numbers of summons lower and only when the caster buffs the summons, they go to usable level.
Why are there even these sequencers? To make the buffing faster? So just make sequencers like the sequencers should work. Item, on which I cast the spells, and when I use it (interruptible) out of fight, it will deplete casts from my spellbook and it is done.
To give casters feeling they are useless at buffing? Mission accomplished.

But back to the topic above. If you really want group of people, who play the style: log, go to the epic dungeon, click on summon spell, wait until summon gets to the end, loot, log off; there is still much better ways to do it. For sure, I would get rid of the sequencers and lowered the basic numbers. First that comes in mind is of course give summoning bonuses (like for the epic caster) for pure caster. Easiest, probably effortlessly applicable to the current state.
Lvl 21: +1
Lvl 23: +1
Lvl 25: +1
Lvl 27: +1
Lvl 28: +2
Lvl 29: +2
Lvl 30: +2
Then you will have PvE gods, who doesn't even need to be mentally present, but on the other hand, they will not be much threat in the part of the game, where it matters, which is PvP. And are generally limited.

Adding (or changing the generally useless) lower tier spells, so they contribute in summoning and give advantage to summons in some way. This will hurt spontaneous casters with limited spellbook without the option to swap. But again, you can be more creative here, like spells, which when damages enemies heals their summons, or on kill give short time (minute or so) buff to them. The gameplay doesn't have to be cast summon, use bought item from shop and spam cantrip.

Other way is to make make prestige class 5, 7, 10 lvls, which will focus on summoning, have bonus features from skill leadership for summons and many other things that people who are using summons can come up with. Not me. (Also, with the number of bugs and everything, I would say don't add new class for at least year, until all of the previous are repaired).

P.S.: Funny what half an hour of procrastination will do, I don't even have stakes in summoning, I am not currently using it, and I don't generally care about it as long as it does not effect PvP.

Any specific examples on what you believe would be a fair combination of stats for a summon?
Epic and lvl 9 slot, varying feat investments, etc.

Perhaps several possible combinations, focusing on different aspects?

Cagus
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Cagus »

Naghast wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 10:43 am

Any specific examples on what you believe would be a fair combination of stats for a summon?
Epic and lvl 9 slot, varying feat investments, etc.

Perhaps several possible combinations, focusing on different aspects?

Sorry no, will not waste time on details, when I know this will be ignored and never implemented anyway.

Point is not in numbers, but in contradicting changes and confusion about the direction. And in the end picking the solution which I believe makes noone happy about it.

-XXX-
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by -XXX- »

It's all super class dependant anyway.
In their current iteration clerics, druids and wizards have no business drawing from the same summon pool.
Most cleric and druid builds can function in PvE even without any summons whatsoever, so summons being complementary makes more sense there.
Take away wizard's summons and they'll end up with an empty spellbook two encounters into the dungeon.

Making mages more durable doesn't address this - depending on implementation it might even cause issues in PvP and/or introduce a playpattern of players ignoring spawns altogether in PvE.

AstralUniverse
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by AstralUniverse »

-XXX- wrote: Mon Jun 03, 2024 1:06 pm

Making mages more durable doesn't address this - depending on implementation it might even cause issues in PvP and/or introduce a playpattern of players ignoring spawns altogether in PvE.

Making mages more durable via something that pretty much functions similarly to a SD summon (but also uses parry mode) and relays on the guard function, isnt going to make a mage more durable in pvp where Guard doesnt do anything. Seems pretty safe in that regard, but yeah a lot of things depend on the implementation. I'm actually curious about that angle.

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Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

Anomandaris
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Anomandaris »

There's a few discussions happening here.

1) What should the state of summons be?

2) How does changing the state of summons affect the balance of a range of builds/classes (in PvE and PvP)?

3) How do we fix #2 by pulling on different levers, some of which may have nothing to do with summons?

#1 Seems to be a unilateral design decision that our feedback won't ever really impact.

#2 Is pretty simple. It makes a range of builds/classes weaker, some of which were already struggling relative to other builds/classes.

#3 Is complicated. You could remove summons entirely from the game and still solve this balance problem another way; it's just a give and take. The problem is too much has been given to martials over time. This isn't to say that martials shouldn't have cookies like scry and ward, and we need to nerf their access to things like Loremaster. It's to say that these builds AB, AC, survivability, and utility are in aggregate, too high comparatively. We also shouldn't implement changes that completely disrupt a large number of character concepts without a VERY good reason. The least important aspect of this IMO is utility, assuming we divorce access to Mords, timestop etc. via UMD/Lore from the "utility" bucket.

The fact that WMs can scry is not the problem, nor is it that a wizard cannot solo a dungeon as easily with summons. Who cares if one build has better PvE utility or QoL and another is non-stop suffering, as long as there's a tradeoff somewhere people can choose for themselves. It's the fact that WMs (and others e.g. certain div builds) can one-tap almost anything, and are grossly over-tuned, without actually sacrificing anything in the form of a real tradeoff.

Adding a durable summon to enhance PvE for casters will barely even begin to solve this issue. Nerfing LM won't solve the issue and will likely just create other problems for builds already suffering. Fix the actual source of the problem by doing one or a combination of several things:

1) Give caster PCs more durability by virtue of some form of improved concentration, AC, damage resistance, HP (hit die change) to not get completely run over by martials in PvP and certain PvE content (without very strong summons to back them up).

2) Give the caster PCs more reliable, consistent damage ouput to match martials in PvP engagements and clearing PvE.

3) Dial back the durability, damage and access to certain MECHANICALLY SIGNIFICANT magical tools to certain martials to bring them in line with other things on the server. Again this is does NOT mean things like scry and ward, this means things like Mords, Timestop, Antimagic etc. There's no reason a martial should have significantly more burst and ongoing damage output, unbeatable saves, access to all the same cookies an epic arcanist/divine caster would, high AC, full damage pen from +5 items by default etc etc etc. To assert there is anything close to balance here would be hard to buy from anyone mechanically savvy.

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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Security_Blanket »

Lower spellcraft requirement for Epic Warding. :twisted:

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Kohuda
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Kohuda »

All that's really happened is that leveling has gone from being a "trivial chore" to an agonizing one.

21 weeks later, the changes are still terrible. Please revert.

Gerhazo
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Gerhazo »

It does feel somewhat disheartening that all the optimized PVP builds that already ignored summons continue to dominate both PVP and PVE, unaffected by the nerfs, while many others that could handle the latter now suffer being subpar at both.

It would be reassuring to know if there's still upcoming changes and whether there's tangible progress on those, or if the team is satisfied with the result of the changes and this is the intended status quo for the moment.
(if this comes off as passive-aggressive, it's not intended to, thought to include this disclaimer because proofreading it I had a concern it might)

perseid
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by perseid »

silverpheonix wrote: Fri May 24, 2024 12:12 pm

Summoned blade reworks? Oooh. Those spells have been terrible for so long that I've lately been thinking about doing R&D RP on a clockwork homunculus spell that would let transmuters have decent construct summons.

No longer being able to mass zoo my summons hurt, not going to lie. I still have them in my Transmuter's spellbook, but I haven't really used them since the change. I suppose I should replace them, just don't know with what.

I'm ages late to replying to this but I only just started reading much through this thread. BBoD is actually incredible for pve scenarios where you're overwhelmed. It doesn't draw aggro (I assume because it can't be killed) and so from a distance it can be used to slowly wittle down enemies who might overwhelm the caster as a pack. No other summon has this property and so it's a unique role that only BBoD fills.

Coolguy McMagic
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Coolguy McMagic »

I have refrained from posting on this topic before due to the "no feedback will be considered for 10 weeks" request that was stated.
Given that there hasn't been any substantial signs of a rework or any kind of actual update yet (apart from a nerf to Undead summoning), I will add my voice to the pile of people saying that this has been a bad change.

Summon III was arguably overpowered for how early you could get it, but that's about the only thing that actually had to be reigned in. This just further narrowed down the builds that are PVE-viable. And most of these builds are bad in PVP too. Meanwhile, the actually strong summons haven't even be changed.

Elemental Meteor is by far the most egregious example: it was worse than Planar Conduit before the nerf, has a higher Spellcraft requirement and then was further nerfed to be made even worse.

As far as I can tell, there seems to be a clear lack of any direction with these changes.

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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by good man of god »

Summons nerfing hurts, removing the ability to ward a summon hurts, having to use sequencers to ward summons hurts.

It seems it has been all take, take, take from casters, with no balance.

I have shelved, deleted, or dropped entire characters because of these changes and lost a lot of time/fun/enthusiasm.

Terribly disappointed.

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perseid
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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by perseid »

good man of god wrote: Sat Aug 10, 2024 1:46 pm

Summons nerfing hurts, removing the ability to ward a summon hurts, having to use sequencers to ward summons hurts.

It seems it has been all take, take, take from casters, with no balance.

I have shelved, deleted, or dropped entire characters because of these changes and lost a lot of time/fun/enthusiasm.

Terribly disappointed.

This echoes a lot of my feelings but I /will/ say that I don't feel like the core concept of sequencers was bad. The pace of the changes is bad. It's awful. And I know this is a volunteer project so we get what we get but considering the current state of minions... That doesn't change that they feel awful and hopelessly doomed to stay in this state for a long time.

That said, buffing minions was a hassle. It was immersive but it was still a hassle. The value proposition of "What if there was an item that gave all the buffs you cared about?" is reasonable. And if the balance was better I'd argue that it SHOULD allow for stronger minions, with unsequenced minions being able to have pvp stats out the gate and the sequencers then layering on added buffs for pve while having the added boost balanced out by the lost action economy that doesn't matter in pve.

But good concepts don't change that we have to ride out the current changes in whatever inbetween state they're in and that sucks prettty hard.

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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Subtext »

Seeing as how the current summon changes seem to be where it's supposed to be - Planar Conduit has still not been touched and remains a must-take feat.
Will we see it taken down a substantial notch soon?

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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by AddledPunster »

At this point, I have to echo the growing sentiment. I have seen far fewer casters being made since the change, which is a shame.

I don’t hate the idea of the Sequencers; I, for one, LOVED not having to spend so much time winding up my summon with buffs. Doubly so since I had been playing a Druid at the time, but I also feel like casters could have been given a spell of some sort that has a similar effect. Call it Empower Summon. Maybe have a lesser or greater version. Give it an Arelith Wizard NPC’s name, like that one standing outside his tower in the Gap of Aeons.

I cannot remember his name right now, but he seems the type to develop a spell.

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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by Coolguy McMagic »

I do like sequencers! They speed up the already obnoxiously long buffing process and save spell slots. I just don't see the point in this last set of summon nerfs.

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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by TheDoctor »

Worst change in a long time.

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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by AstralUniverse »

AddledPunster wrote: Sat Aug 10, 2024 5:46 pm

At this point, I have to echo the growing sentiment. I have seen far fewer casters being made since the change, which is a shame.

Is it true tho?
How do you explain the growing % of wizards and clerics in the playercounts then? We have more deep clerics than deep anything-else, with wizard being second place. Only to be passed by deep + middling fighter and rogue (not going to speak about loremaster since those 20% loremaster could be casters or mundanes so it doesnt matter unless there was more context). Over all, it doesnt look like we have fewer casters being made.

I should probably also add that I havent played a summoner since the changes personally, I dont have a horse here. Just curious how you've reached this conclusion.

KriegEternal wrote:

Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

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Re: 10 weeks have passed,thoughts?

Post by perseid »

AstralUniverse wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2024 6:05 am
AddledPunster wrote: Sat Aug 10, 2024 5:46 pm

At this point, I have to echo the growing sentiment. I have seen far fewer casters being made since the change, which is a shame.

Is it true tho?
How do you explain the growing % of wizards and clerics in the playercounts then? We have more deep clerics than deep anything-else, with wizard being second place. Only to be passed by deep + middling fighter and rogue (not going to speak about loremaster since those 20% loremaster could be casters or mundanes so it doesnt matter unless there was more context). Over all, it doesnt look like we have fewer casters being made.

I should probably also add that I havent played a summoner since the changes personally, I dont have a horse here. Just curious how you've reached this conclusion.

I'd probably explain the growing numbers as diviner wizards being politically meta and enchantment wizards having the best good hope for pvp.

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