Player Count Conclusions

[Azensor]

And it seems a little strange to me to have caster players rattlingly mad that a swordsman can pick up scry or teleport ward on a 4-5 level dip, while standing on a 3 level dip that moves their discipline from 16 cross classed ranks plus str plus gear to 33 ranks plus epic skill focus plus strength plus gear.

Martials can also dip for tumble for an extra +3 AC, and/or dip for spellcraft to boost all their saves against spells. A better comparison would be letting casters get full AB and d10 hit dice on all their wizard levels, along with WM crits, for dipping 4 levels.

Didn't think anyone was saying it was to powerful when linked to WM or maybe they were honestly I skipped most of the thread it just went on and on.
More a case of a fighter/WM shouldn't be throwing out epic spell feats without the ability to cast spells due to a dip class.

Yeah it's mainly this. Not only is it imbalanced for PVP but it doesn't even make sense lore-wise, and you'd think people wanting to play LOREmasters would actually care about the LORE but they don't apparently. And I already gave you all the fix, just make lore master require spell focus: divination and 3 arcane spellcaster levels like it does in pen and paper. This would literally solve every problem and do away with any kind of double masters who aren't also bards.

wizard/wm stocks rising

[chris a gogo]

Funny you should say that, actually.

The 15d6 sneak attack bit is a strawman, because no wizard will ever care about it.

No it's a comparison because it's something you could only get with high class level investment.
Just like a wizard has to be able to cast level 9 magic and take three feats to gain what LM currently gives for next to no investment.

Im not saying wizards want sneak attacks im saying they couldn't get another class skill set without massive investment.
But anyone can get the mage perks for 5 levels of LM.
If 5 level of rogue/bard gave my wizards imp evasion, defensive roll and access to epic dodge etc. I'd take it.

[Eyeliner]

Just like a wizard has to be able to cast level 9 magic and take three feats to gain what LM currently gives for next to no investment.

Sure but what wizard isn't going to be able to cast level 9 magic? Or take those spell focuses for the many other practical uses? You can't make it sound like that's a sacrifice. Divination feats maybe, but wizards can spare them and even then they have more uses than scry itself.

[Scurvy Cur]

Just like a wizard has to be able to cast level 9 magic and take three feats to gain what LM currently gives for next to no investment.

Sure but what wizard isn't going to be able to cast level 9 magic? Or take those spell focuses for the many other practical uses? You can't make it sound like that's a sacrifice. Divination feats maybe, but wizards can spare them and even then they have more uses than scry itself.

Hey, just think of the stat investment. A wizard has to buy 19 whole int to cast level 9 spells. A LM only has to buy 16 cast epic spell effects. How is that even a little balanced???

[30 RANGER FROM THE MOON]

I think that's likely because, atm, there seems to be a confluence of public angst about:

1) Many players don't feel like their casters shine (personally, I think this is an entirely vibes-based opinion, and a lot of the "facts" I see advanced in support of the positions amount to "well, a friend of mine who's really good at the game promises me that every character has 40+ in all saves), so any class like LM that lets mundanes achieve a "caster feel" also feels like an unfair encroachment on what feels like a small niche that's left over for casters.

the rise of WM/LM is related in part to this overall vibe that "casters suck."

arcane casters currently, despite how important they are, are not super common. there's one prevalent scry-drow, and he's the only one who comes to my mind. otherwise, i know a fair few players who have dropped their sorcs/wizards because they find solo content unpalatable post summon nerf. to this day, i still struggle to find consistent potion/scroll shops. (maybe im garbage, seriously, if someone knows a good surface potion/scroll shop, i cant find it) sorc/ranger is dead in the water (cool spread, gone with no hard5s), etc.

everyone needs a mords/haste/concealment bot. nobody wants to play it.

source: all my friends who just recently tried leveling the arcane casters hated it, despite previously being long-term, skilled arcane players. (invokers need not apply. hemo is still awesome)

now you have all these mundane weaponmasters, barbarians, etc, who no longer get their caster support. they spend 5-10k every login just doing basic buffs. LM is the perfect bandaid to that. couple that with economy problems, PvP Fear, everyone wanting to be "ready," you get people playing the new-cookie cutter WM that breaks the bank slightly less than other WM variants.

meanwhile things in gish-land (and melee casters) are pretty sweet and continue to be sweet. spellsword is still cozy af, harbinger is good.

then you have stuff like melee FvS / cleric with your choice of dip. melee + summons while leveling, magic vestment, regen, heal, harm for phylactery nonsense. SoV for hordes. if you're feeling extra lazy, you can play a defiler.

wizard aint got any of that. my friend leveled a wizard with mummy dust and for most of his writs he used the best spell in arelith, ESF: Summon Weaponmaster. i'd log in, he'd give me blades of fire and haste, otherwise he was slogging it with mindfog + cantrips. he was miserable anytime i wasnt around (and he is the far, far more experienced player between us.)

once he hit 30, all he existed to do was scribe me scrolls, give me good hope (specialist), haste us for portal runs, and maybe scrape in some RP if he was lucky. he tried stuff solo and, like all the other arcanes i know, found it to be awful. that character was promptly mulched for a 16 start.

this is more on my essay of why loremaster is not a problem and instead showcases issues with arelith itself because it's a really good ointment to the things people begrudgingly tolerate on the server. LM is not and has never been a replacement for casters. it just makes life without them easier.

refund on scrolls / wand charges eases the consumable grind considerably.
boosted CL means you can use zoo scrolls and get just a little more mileage.
spellcraft + appraise access is cozy af.
UMD needs no explanation.
language tokens mean less time spent grinding language lessons and more time saying "Die, Drow!" (Xanalress)
teleport ward means less portal lens cornersneak gameplay (fun, but not for the weaponmaster) - it also means scry-warding. (see bottom para)
teleporting means less cash spent on portal lenses (see point one)
mining secret means less time grinding (see point one)

none of these things are oppressive. it just makes arelith beat down on you less, which, in the age of having no caster best-friend-forever, it's very easy to see why it's so popular. (it makes arelith more fun)

scry is the exception, in theory. in practice, it's a clunky unfun mechanic that sucks on both ends. it isn't built well enough to be conducive to good RP without major work on the scrier's part. (watching other people RP, then opening your NWN logs and copy-pasting everyone's dialogue in a "scry report" is not good RP.) it ought to get the dweomercraft treatment.

the way scry goes is the following:
can you scry? no? forget about it.
are you at risk of scrying?
yes. --> scry ward.
cant scry ward? conceal yourself and hope it isnt a diviner.

i hope i do not need to explain why this (simplified) flowchart of scrying showcases just how boring of a mechanic it is.

[Kythana]

i know a fair few players who have dropped their sorcs/wizards because they find solo content unpalatable post summon nerf

Remember when the overwhelming dislike surrounding the summon nerf was responded with, "just wait 10 weeks", and then there was never any follow-up?

You love to see it.

[-XXX-]

Hey, just think of the stat investment. A wizard has to buy 19 whole int to cast level 9 spells. A LM only has to buy 16 cast epic spell effects. How is that even a little balanced???

IMO this is a bad argument (unless sarcasm)
The actual comparison here should probably be 4 Loremaster dip vs. 27 Wizard.

[refund on scrolls / wand charges eases the consumable grind considerably.
boosted CL means you can use zoo scrolls and get just a little more mileage.
spellcraft + appraise access is cozy af.
UMD needs no explanation.
language tokens mean less time spent grinding language lessons and more time saying "Die, Drow!" (Xanalress)
teleport ward means less portal lens cornersneak gameplay (fun, but not for the weaponmaster) - it also means scry-warding. (see bottom para)
teleporting means less cash spent on portal lenses (see point one)
mining secret means less time grinding (see point one)

none of these things are oppressive. it just makes arelith beat down on you less, which, in the age of having no caster best-friend-forever, it's very easy to see why it's so popular. (it makes arelith more fun)

This is super spot on.
LM is good because a 4 level dip deletes most downsides of playing a mundane character, not because it'd make melee builds melee harder.

[Subtext]

The boosted CL is imho the only egregious thing.
It means 5 AC from Barkskin wands vs. 4, 3 AB/dmg from Divine Favor vs. 1, +4 from Bless Weapon instead of +3, +3 AC from Magic Vestment instead of +1...and so on.

Especially the +4 Bless Weapon is going to become problematic once the new dweomer system is in because any LM/WM can have a +4 weapon with 3x 1d4 damage + Keen + perm essence of their choice. That's not possible under the current system.

If LM is to be nerfed, that's really the only thing I'd change. Tie Scroll/Wand Mastery to caster/rogue/bard levels.

The rest? I love LM for the potential to give your char some "unusual" extras. Let them put wards, send illusions, whatever. This stuff isn't exactly balance breaking.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I think that's likely because, atm, there seems to be a confluence of public angst about:

1) Many players don't feel like their casters shine (personally, I think this is an entirely vibes-based opinion, and a lot of the "facts" I see advanced in support of the positions amount to "well, a friend of mine who's really good at the game promises me that every character has 40+ in all saves), so any class like LM that lets mundanes achieve a "caster feel" also feels like an unfair encroachment on what feels like a small niche that's left over for casters.

the rise of WM/LM is related in part to this overall vibe that "casters suck."

arcane casters currently, despite how important they are, are not super common. there's one prevalent scry-drow, and he's the only one who comes to my mind. otherwise, i know a fair few players who have dropped their sorcs/wizards because they find solo content unpalatable post summon nerf. to this day, i still struggle to find consistent potion/scroll shops. (maybe im garbage, seriously, if someone knows a good surface potion/scroll shop, i cant find it) sorc/ranger is dead in the water (cool spread, gone with no hard5s), etc.

everyone needs a mords/haste/concealment bot. nobody wants to play it.

source: all my friends who just recently tried leveling the arcane casters hated it, despite previously being long-term, skilled arcane players. (invokers need not apply. hemo is still awesome)

now you have all these mundane weaponmasters, barbarians, etc, who no longer get their caster support. they spend 5-10k every login just doing basic buffs. LM is the perfect bandaid to that. couple that with economy problems, PvP Fear, everyone wanting to be "ready," you get people playing the new-cookie cutter WM that breaks the bank slightly less than other WM variants.

meanwhile things in gish-land (and melee casters) are pretty sweet and continue to be sweet. spellsword is still cozy af, harbinger is good.

then you have stuff like melee FvS / cleric with your choice of dip. melee + summons while leveling, magic vestment, regen, heal, harm for phylactery nonsense. SoV for hordes. if you're feeling extra lazy, you can play a defiler.

wizard aint got any of that. my friend leveled a wizard with mummy dust and for most of his writs he used the best spell in arelith, ESF: Summon Weaponmaster. i'd log in, he'd give me blades of fire and haste, otherwise he was slogging it with mindfog + cantrips. he was miserable anytime i wasnt around (and he is the far, far more experienced player between us.)

once he hit 30, all he existed to do was scribe me scrolls, give me good hope (specialist), haste us for portal runs, and maybe scrape in some RP if he was lucky. he tried stuff solo and, like all the other arcanes i know, found it to be awful. that character was promptly mulched for a 16 start.

this is more on my essay of why loremaster is not a problem and instead showcases issues with arelith itself because it's a really good ointment to the things people begrudgingly tolerate on the server. LM is not and has never been a replacement for casters. it just makes life without them easier.

refund on scrolls / wand charges eases the consumable grind considerably.
boosted CL means you can use zoo scrolls and get just a little more mileage.
spellcraft + appraise access is cozy af.
UMD needs no explanation.
language tokens mean less time spent grinding language lessons and more time saying "Die, Drow!" (Xanalress)
teleport ward means less portal lens cornersneak gameplay (fun, but not for the weaponmaster) - it also means scry-warding. (see bottom para)
teleporting means less cash spent on portal lenses (see point one)
mining secret means less time grinding (see point one)

none of these things are oppressive. it just makes arelith beat down on you less, which, in the age of having no caster best-friend-forever, it's very easy to see why it's so popular. (it makes arelith more fun)

scry is the exception, in theory. in practice, it's a clunky unfun mechanic that sucks on both ends. it isn't built well enough to be conducive to good RP without major work on the scrier's part. (watching other people RP, then opening your NWN logs and copy-pasting everyone's dialogue in a "scry report" is not good RP.) it ought to get the dweomercraft treatment.

the way scry goes is the following:
can you scry? no? forget about it.
are you at risk of scrying?
yes. --> scry ward.
cant scry ward? conceal yourself and hope it isnt a diviner.

i hope i do not need to explain why this (simplified) flowchart of scrying showcases just how boring of a mechanic it is.

This is a damn good post.

[Morto]

Just commenting, there is a lot of focus on the 20% lore master population.

There shouldn't be an outrage on this, because Loremaster is a class which is by design very beneficial for a large variety of builds.

Considering the 3 key archetypes, warrior, rogue and Wizard, the Loremaster provides most of its benefits to each of those archetypes.

Comparing that transition of benefit to an alternative prestige class, like assassin... The assassin skills are much harder to translate to a kit which is based on direct combat such as the warrior, or more magic such as the wizard. It provides benefit mostly to a play style which is exercised almost exclusively by the rogue.

This versatility of the class I think explains much of the versatility of why Loremaster is so popular, it appeals to everyone.