The Removal of (Slave)

[Second Breakfast]

Hey, folks.

So, somewhat contentious and controversial topic I am bringing up here... but then again, aren't most of them?

At present, slave characters present with the name "So and So (Slave)", and yea, I got to be real with you, it is NOT a good look. Consider someone who randomly decides to roll up a character in the Underdark, and this is the first thing they see is a character with (Slave) in their name. Frankly speaking, people might immediately get the wrong idea about the sort of roleplay server that we're playing on.

Beyond that, it is also internally inconsistent; we do not have characters with parentheses (Noble) in their name, or (Lord), or (Outcast). So why do we have it for (Slave)?

You still have what is in their description if you examine them; you can tell they're a slave if you do that. That, to me, seems like enough.

[Windows95 CD-ROM]

I'll also add that the current outcast system labels outcasts in their description, not in their name with a tag in parenthesis. I think keeping it to a description suits. I think parenthesis labels in names for temporary states like being imprisoned is a good use, but a label for a semi-permanent state, such as being enslaved, doesn't work so well.

[this is not for you]

Ideological issues with the mechanical implementation of chattel slavery in the year of our lord 2025 aside; imagine trying to advertise the server through clips, screenshots, or streams on social media, and there appears a brown skinned man with (Slave) appended to his name. Now, imagine trying to explain how this isn't what it looks like.

As Second Breakfast has noted, social caste is not put in the tags for any other status like (Lord), (Noble), (Outcast), and players have invented creative ways of signalling what social groups they are affiliated with using given tools such as font color and character descriptions. By moving the (Slave) tag out from the name plate and into the description, it allows the player to present their own narrative context for being enslaved alongside the mechanical tag, side by side.

[Richrd]

I think this is fine.

It tells you at a mere glance who is wearing a collar (which indeed should be very painfully obvious) and who isn't. It's a physical trait that needs to be made painfully apparent.

To go into what 'this is not for you' said...
The example of "brown skinned man with (Slave) appended to his name" is absurdly low fruit because it's just putting predominantly American modern day IRL-isms into this and dragging the whole conversation into the mud. If the hypothetical advertisement featuring this slave presented him as a man with blue skin instead of brown nobody would bat an eye?

Slavery is a predominantly evil concept for various reasons, no matter who it's being inflicted upon. Blue, white, brown or green should have nothing to do with how evil it is. Leave politics outside the door, please.

[this is not for you]

I think this is fine.

It tells you at a mere glance who is wearing a collar (which indeed should be very painfully obvious) and who isn't. It's a physical trait that needs to be made painfully apparent.

To go into what 'this is not for you' said...
The example of "brown skinned man with (Slave) appended to his name" is absurdly low fruit because it's just putting predominantly American modern day IRL-isms into this and dragging the whole conversation into the mud. If the hypothetical advertisement featuring this slave presented him as a man with blue skin instead of brown nobody would bat an eye?

Slavery is a predominantly evil concept for various reasons, no matter who it's being inflicted upon. Blue, white, brown or green should have nothing to do with how evil it is. Leave politics outside the door, please.

On persistent world roleplay servers focused on portraying "historically accurate" roleplay in historical "realistic" settings, slavery is allowed to be referenced and acknowledged (as should be) but never practiced in character between players, even if consenting. While these servers are not Arelith, I think it's quite telling that for the games industry, and even our hobby of online text-based RP, slavery in this fashion is consistently banned, avoided, or lightly glossed over.

From the most politically neutral standpoint, the slavery system, even without the anecdote I provided, is a PR nightmare. In a best case scenario, consenting adults roleplaying slavery and master roleplay in a gamified system is "weird sex stuff" adjacent, which is odd given Arelith's PG-13 branding. The anecdote I provided is not hyperbole. While showing the server off to colleagues in video game studies, a brown skinned man with (slave) appended to his name wandered on screen as I was explaining Arelith's legacy as the longest living and largest population of nwn roleplayers. I promise you it was not better when they learned this was not normal as enslaved characters are more often women of ambiguous ethnicity or fantasy race. It just looks bad.

Why is it so important for an enslaved person to be readily, painfully obvious? What is this physical trait that needs to be "painfully" apparent? What is so fundamental about the slavery system that the server cannot do without, and are there means of implementing it in ways that provide more open-ended narratives?

As the server grows to newer and wider audiences, it's a good idea to reflect on these questions.

[Halibutthead]

it is great to reflect on these questions.
however, since what we're doing boils down to pearl clutching and asking what a hypothetical someone might hypothetically think about a hypothetical scene, instead of what happens or how it really is; i think it's important to keep our wits about us. Frankly, if you manage to create a character, enter that timestop vfx door, get all the way to the hub and one glimpse of a "Firstname Lastname (Slave)" brings you to the conclusion that this is one of "those" servers, I don't think there's reasonably a way we could have prevented it. you were going to draw that conclusion somehow, and this is just what you've chosen to point at.
now, because discussing the morality of chattel slavery in an opt-in rp system with multiple warnings about pg-13 themed rules isn't particularly fruitful, i'm going to hop onto the server and then wantonly murder a few hundred people. just snuff their lives from existence without a thought. then, i'll dedicate their murder to the name of a dark deity and summon a few demons. gotta leave that evil slavery stuff where it belongs. it makes me sick, thinking someone could own someone else.

[Royal Blood]

I think this is maybe over thinking things. I am not overly fond of the slavery system myself I am more prone to use the prisoner system or something similar to that however, the slavery system does allow for the recall of said enslaved person

The setting is chalked full of Slavery. Thay is an entire nation of slavery. While the idea is uncomfortable to consider IRL I there is an abundance of narrative like groundwork that makes the system worth having. It is also a conflict resolved without death

Some of the most impactful characters to shake Arelith have begun as Slaves imo.

So

1: Maybe moving it to the description is fine

2: not being able to separate IC writing and OOC morals Is a mistake... I'm pretty sure most warlock players aren't summoning demons irl etc... slavery is no different. It is a narrative tool which any mature person should be able to navigate and role play in a way that is productive imo.

If you identify a character with a darker skin tone, then see a slave collar and immediately draw ooc conclusions about that idk. Maybe this server isn't the place for them. I want to be respectful but blunt. Anyone should be able to tell that's not the intention of the character nor the design of the server.

I think to even suggest that is an outlandish take.

[this is not for you]

Nobody in real life is going to wake up tomorrow and do an evil ritual to unleash a ghost army on the tri-state area. These acts of villainy are very obviously fantasy and seated in the tradition of fantasy story telling. However, not even Hearts of Iron IV, a game where players can play as the Nazi party, invokes the "holocaust" in any way other than implied.

Slavery is not fantasy. It is a real thing that happened and impacted real people. For the calls to "leave politics at the door," it is a bold choice to include something that wars have been fought over as a mainstay feature. In the source books, slavery is indeed used as a narrative tool to signal how evil a country is; it is a set piece, a prop -- players are not intended to play as slave and master. There are other TTRPGs for that, and they are largely sex oriented. The in-depth portrayal of enslaved and owning enslaved persons goes well beyond the scope the source books provide. Any normal person who sees this is well in their rights to be a little disturbed, and to say those people are not welcome here is to say the people who are enthusiastic about the system are.

I concede that the server culture has been married to the slavery system since it's inception. That is why I echo the proposal to compromise, and simply move the slave tag to the description. It is the least amount of effort to enact, and allows the system to remain as is without being a glaringly problematic issue.

There are many hills to die on. This one seems like one we could skip.

[Royal Blood]

As pointed out the system is entirely consensual. I'm not well versed in like slavery lore. Like I said, it's not a system I personally make use of or have thought much about, but I am aware of it in various DnD cultures and a primary cultural role it plays in some DnD cultures. (Thayans, Drow, Shadovar etc.)

My primary point is that a player on the server should be able to differentiate between In-character happenings and OOC ideals. Sure, maybe warlocks were a dramatic example, but ritual sacrifice, religions, race, all of these are often primary themes in DnD and are also things IRL Wars are fought over... I just find the idea that slavery specifically has to be the thing we need to axe just brings us the question: What else is uncomfortable that should be removed?

It's writing. Narrative. Fantasy. If a player cannot separate those things, then yeah, I think this server is not a good fit for them. Slavery is an uncomfortable topic, and I appreciate some are more sensitive to it than others. But we have to be emotionally like resilient and mature enough to acknowledge NWN has nothing to do with those IRL things and be able to acknowledge they are separate.

I just think the moment we start identifying every unsafe topic and just removing it we suddenly have a very sterile and boring environment. I'm not saying removing slavery or whatever is like going to bring us there I just think it's the first slip down a longer slope.

Idc if the tag is on the name or in the description. I just feel strongly about the suggestion that Arelith somehow has parallels to IRL slavery. It doesn't, and I'm bothered by the suggestion that it might because I think it is so boldly unfair take that like it is worth a rebuttal.

[this is not for you]

I am not arguing "every topic" of sensitive issue be put up for debate and scrutiny. I am arguing for one specific topic that presents the vibe of, people who are uncommonly enthusiastic about providing mechanical implementation of slavery and slave play in a PG-13 server. This need not become a witch hunt of, "well what else can't we allow if we don't let this?" That is not helpful. I'm quite confident in arguing that any of the characters who found compelling narratives exploring enslavement, likely could have had the same, if not better, results without (Slave) pinned to their name plate.

This is, again, not a matter of saying we can't do any edgy topic. As someone who has played edgy evil complex bad guys to goofy bad guys to hyper aggressive militant paladins, these things are often in my wheel house. I am saying, maybe, just maybe, we should consider removing the emphasis on proudly presenting slaves as a feature. It's just weird.

I should add that recent studies in game studies on players, characters, and roleplay suggest that IC/OOC separation is not innate, nor particularly easy to maintain without consistent encouragement and enforcement by the surrounding roleplay culture. And let's be real here, we must also acknowledge that the language of players today IC is more modern and casual than ever before. How often are players invoking IRL memes, making playful references to IRL topics or media, making funny meta-jokes, using game-terms like buffs or veiled terms for being "online" (on the ley, on-line), or using modern, familiar language in their every day In Character interactions?

We need to draw a line. To me, there is only one line to draw at discussion, with a very simple, very easy compromise: put the slavery tag in the description.

[Sincra]

I'd rather the whole system be yote.

Use prisoner status instead.

"But that's easy to escape"
Exactly.
It avoids the E-RP tie in, it avoids the ramifications in mechanical elements and cultural, even if I think the cultural side is often overstated given this is a fantasy game rife with slavery and other complexity.
Importantly, it makes it voluntary.
It's not voluntary to do a FOIG questline or pay 2 million to free a character.
That's quite the opposite. That's mandatory with effort to escape.

It's a half baked idea that's never been expanded on in a meaningful way.
Trying to give it meaning via mechanical negatives is denied while it simultaneously allows you to get portals, even if your collar originates from a surface location, something we can infact tell.
I already had to downgrade the buffs it got given to a large extent as there were cases of individuals using the escaped slave item to become a slave, get the ac or ab buff, then free themself instantly.
It's either used to leverage a gain or ends up weird vibes.

[Vargrand]

I would feel extremely uncomfortable roleplaying with someone without the slave tag, and then it comes out as "Ah by the way I am a slave".

It MUST be pointed out at the very first glance, 100%.

I don't see the E-rp issue. As pointed out by the zero tolerance post, it's ban.

[BlinkDelight]

In the source books, slavery is indeed used as a narrative tool to signal how evil a country is; it is a set piece, a prop -- players are not intended to play as slave and master. There are other TTRPGs for that, and they are largely sex oriented. The in-depth portrayal of enslaved and owning enslaved persons goes well beyond the scope the source books provide.

I will say that D&D has plenty of official and published sourcebooks that talk about and include running slavery. Not to mention torture, ritual sacrifice, and all other sorts of evil things that players can do. Keep in mind that Wizards of the Coast published and even made a movie on The Book of Vile Darkness.

[Dr Mantis Toboggan MD]

We need to draw a line. To me, there is only one line to draw at discussion, with a very simple, very easy compromise: put the slavery tag in the description.

So hide the fact slavery goes on behind one additional button click? If seeing [Slave] is enough to send a potential new player into uproar then maybe they aren't emotionally equipped enough to be here anyway? Chaotic evil characters exist, Demon worshippers, the sacrifice of sentient life, murder - it's all happening and very clearly written out in the lore.

[Second Breakfast]

I would feel extremely uncomfortable roleplaying with someone without the slave tag, and then it comes out as "Ah by the way I am a slave".

It MUST be pointed out at the very first glance, 100%.

I don't see the E-rp issue. As pointed out by the zero tolerance post, it's ban.

It would be in the description; you just examine them and the text that would identify them as a slave would still be there, just like it is now. As an aside, this is a very mechanics-brained take here; like, do we need the slavery system to feature it in character’s backstories or speak of its greater presence in the world?

I do not believe we do; but this is not a proposal to see the slavery system removed, but rather the tag from the floaty name removed and the blurb in the description expounded upon. Because regardless of whether those posting here think it’s fine, it seriously hampers Arelith’s marketability as a server when that is shoved right in your face the second you enter the Underdark as a new player. You immediately have to explain away that “no, it isn’t a sex thing, or a race thing. It’s a part of the setting, you see,” and hope that is enough and they don’t think you a weirdo.

As for sexy elven fun times or relationships with power dynamics developing with slaves, if you don’t think players like to toe the line and see how close they can get with that, you haven’t been paying close attention.

[Richrd]

I would feel extremely uncomfortable roleplaying with someone without the slave tag, and then it comes out as "Ah by the way I am a slave".

It MUST be pointed out at the very first glance, 100%.

I don't see the E-rp issue. As pointed out by the zero tolerance post, it's ban.

It would be in the description; you just examine them and the text that would identify them as a slave would still be there, just like it is now. As an aside, this is a very mechanics-brained take here; like, do we need the slavery system to feature it in character’s backstories or speak of its greater presence in the world?

I do not believe we do; but this is not a proposal to see the slavery system removed, but rather the tag from the floaty name removed and the blurb in the description expounded upon. Because regardless of whether those posting here think it’s fine, it seriously hampers Arelith’s marketability as a server when that is shoved right in your face the second you enter the Underdark as a new player. You immediately have to explain away that “no, it isn’t a sex thing, or a race thing. It’s a part of the setting, you see,” and hope that is enough and they don’t think you a weirdo.

As for sexy elven fun times or relationships with power dynamics developing with slaves, if you don’t think players like to toe the line and see how close they can get with that, you haven’t been paying close attention.

sexy elven fun times is against the rules.

If somebody is being a degenerate and fails to find an outlet for their weird stuff other than a PG13 NWN server then these people just need to be gone. Banned, simple.
Somebody is clearly toeing the line and keeps getting into situations that really shouldn't be happening? Report them, get them banned.

Why are people bringing up rulebreaks as an argument? It's like me saying "yeah, please remove the ability to hostile people because some people break the rules of PvP engagement".

[Windows95 CD-ROM]

Following the idea of the slave tag in comparison to the outcast tag, I genuinely have been hostiled and nearly pvped on the surface a number of times for having my outcast tag be displayed in my description, which should tell you how often people are examining them.

This has also happened to me outside the city of Sibayad, in the desert areas. This similarly has also likely happened to anyone who has played a dread pirate outside of Guldorand or Sencliff.

The slave notification would still be visible at a glance if you examined someone, even if we removed the name tag and kept it delegated to a description.

As for the concerns about misuse of the slave system, I myself have unfortunately witnessed behaviour that I found toed the pg13 line between a slave and their owner at least once on this server. There is a reason why the rule about romantic interaction between slaves and their masters exist; clearly this was enough of an issue before to warrant such a ruling to be made. We need to be more diligent about upholding a standard of roleplay and report bad behaviour like this we see.

[Sincra]

Why are people bringing up rulebreaks as an argument? It's like me saying "yeah, please remove the ability to hostile people because some people break the rules of PvP engagement".

When a system is visibly used to either bypass a restriction or play to a fetish, and then has complicated issues in modern media, this is why.

The DM's are not omniscient and having to report every infraction creates an environment of report burnout. It is a fair statement to say that addressing the issue as it is, a non-crucial server system, and attempting to fix the perceived problems is not that strange!

[Cnaym]

Needs to be clearly visible so others don't break rules with or around the entire thing as it has some extra rules involved.

I agree that the 2m coins are a bit much to escape, but I also see how lowering it would reduce the slave time of some people even further.
It's 100% optional not only to become a slave, but also to engage with slaves, seeing how you can just tell them to leave you alone.

Report Burnout is funny to me. Slaves in my experience tend to be careful because of the extra rules, while the orgy stuff was often talked about in certain town squares.

I get burnout reporting stuff if I don't get a reply, follow up question or any visible results. None of these require a slave tag to be involved.

If the system is visibly abused to either bypass restrictions or play to fetishes, maybe handling the people doing that would be more useful than hiding the slave title behind a right click or calling them long-term-prisoners.

I'm not even against a removal of the system, I just find the arguments here really wild. Maybe a poll would be more useful.

[Sincra]

Report Burnout is funny to me. Slaves in my experience tend to be careful because of the extra rules, while the orgy stuff was often talked about in certain town squares.

I get burnout reporting stuff if I don't get a reply, follow up question or any visible results. None of these require a slave tag to be involved.

Burnout is not just an isolated event, it's the cumulative effect of having to report many things.
Adding to the pile of "just report it" doesn't help as eventually people give up if they're told to report every little thing that's needing enforced.
In these cases a system adjustment is more proportional as it instead reduces the additional load on players and DM's, DM's that are always espousing how busy they are mind you.

If the system is visibly abused to either bypass restrictions or play to fetishes, maybe handling the people doing that would be more useful than hiding the slave title behind a right click or calling them long-term-prisoners.

I'm not even against a removal of the system, I just find the arguments here really wild. Maybe a poll would be more useful.

I'd love for it to be a one and done but as is demonstrated by the occasional reminders on this, it is not.
DM's are reporting being constantly busy and due to the opaque nature of punishments doled out it's not going to stop the next offenders.

I'd say yes to a poll but it's quite clear there's a narrative of wanting mechanical support for systems like this for one reason or another, and this absolutely would marr it.

[Cnaym]

It'd help a lot if ban appeals and staff decision complaints would be handled more visible. As for the constant busy topic, that's either gonna require less players or more DMs.

A funny way some other games handle this is sending a "this months ban stats" newsletter.
Don't need names, but if you got a number of "Banned for Slave romance RP" "Banned for no rp pvp" every month people might pay more attention to not doing it / actually reporting it.

Offering something for the Burnout on both sides. Been on both sides of the issue myself.

[Subtext]

This is such a difficult topic.

I absolutely get being very wary about the topic of slavery especially since there -are- people happily taking their smut to a different communication platform and I am old enough to know that non-consent fantasies are a thing for disturbingly many people.
On the other hand, the slavery system as it exists can be a great narrative tool and I am not sure the removal of it would change the problem of people having and playing out such fantasies.
While it's not necessarily problematic if two consenting adults keep such fantasies private, you don't know who you interact with and what people might have experienced IRL...or if that person is a minor.

As for the perception aspect - Slavery is very much an issue in the real world, surely. As are murder, theft, robbery or burglarly and I would bet that especially the latter three affect more people playing this game and have much more potential to have traumatized someone in this community to some degree. Not to dismiss that argument entirely of course - but I do think there are plenty of evil things happening in game that are still relevant today and it's definitely something to discuss where to draw the line.

Aside from that, I like the idea of naming and shaming to some degree. I do think some transparency about how many people got banned and what for might go a long way to deter other troublemakers...and it might also cut down on the discord rumour mill about who got banned and why. I've seen pretty vile rumours going round via private message and there's definitely a "not cool" territory.

[Rei_Jin]

IMO, Slavery as a system may have its place for roleplay in a general sense, but just as we do not allow for on-screen pregnancy in Arelith due to the harms that have been done, and could be done, we need to remove the slavery system altogether for PCs.

Yes, NPC slavery can continue, but PCs should never be slaves.

Arelith has been around so long that any slavemaster with half a brain would not allow the enslavement of an adventurer, they'd stick to commoners... and not elite commoners like our PCs can be.

To be blunt, we should treat it like the Traveller roleplaying system does, in that sure, your background allows for some messed up stuff, but if that messed up stuff happens your character dies or cannot be an adventurer, start again.

(For those who don't know the Traveller system, you roll dice to determine some background stuff, and you can die in character creation.)

[Kushion]

remove it

[Xarge VI]

I don’t really agree that slavery narrative should be banned. It can be a wonderful narrative tool- which yes, some have used for weird and creepy stuff. But it can be a potent tool to tell stories about oppression, adversity, insurmountable odds, freedom fighting, etc.

Essentially oppression is necessary to provide the stage for emancipation.

However I agree that the (slave) tag is unnecessary, since everything else are description tags now I think the slave tag should also be in the description. Truth be told, I think all the description tags could be removed as they seem to largely serve a WoW-esque binary pvp culture.

For example, I find the Dread Pirate tattoos weird- If you want to be known as a Pirate you should do pirate things with and at other player characters to get the renown.

I feel that the tags remove an important step in roleplay, which is the work to recognise who is a friend and who is a foe.