The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

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Babylon System is the Vampire
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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by Babylon System is the Vampire »

I honestly don't know what would happen if outcast was outright removed, since I haven't played a UD character to date. But I do know what keeps me from playing there, and what would change that. I said I would get into this the next time it was brought up, and because I'm dying to get it out, I'm counting your week later thread necromancy as the next time ;)

Imagine an Anundor that is built next to a resource that everyone (including surfacers) wants a piece of. Brogendenstein is all in on tapping the resource and have already begun to create a wealth boon as a result of said resource, forcing Cordor and Guldorand to back individual companies on their behalf to move down there and start tapping into it themselves. Only the elves remain dubious.

As a result, the city is broken into two parts, the ever-growing population of the outer ring that prospectors from all walks of life are allowed in, and a wealthy inner city who's access is limited to the more traditional races you would expect in Anundor, already amassing wealth from the forementioned resource. A drow city* deeper in the dark has the strongest claim, but several tribes among the other races as well as a clan of duergar have all struck riches, creating the dynamic of the inner city. You could even add a human group that is easily identified by face tattoos or something to said underdark clans in the inner city, which would replace what is known as an outcast now.

What this would do is create a frontier settlement with higher stakes that everyone who likes political intrigue fraught with danger can enjoy. Harpers and zhents for example would have a city that they both want to manipulate to their own ends, but neither has a clear advantage. And you could design all sorts of things like guarding a caravan from anudor to a surface city that would be designed to challenge level 30s to complete.

Now, I didn't go too deep into the specifics because as always, my idea is just an example of how I could see it working, not a fleshed-out concept. But this is the sort of thing that would draw me to play in the underdark, because it gives my character a baseline to work with when coming up with a motivation to be there. It also serves to connect the surface and the underdark in a way that doesn't currently exist, save maybe a little on sencliff. It would also be the only city on the server that doesn't have a clear advantage toward good or evil, despite leaning evil of course. The ultimate playground for the player vs player sort, with a way for stories to foster before it just comes down to boom bash you dead I dead.

*In regard to the drow city, it doesn't have to be a settlement as we know it. Truth be told you could make the barracks outside the only accessible area, with a city wall its only visual representation in game. The point of this wouldn't be to let drow be drow off on their own in their private city, but rather let drow be drow in anundor with it making sense since they already have support for their ethical code back home, they don't need to try to bend anundor to their will to be successful at it, their way is just a piece of the proverbial machine.

Anyways, like I said I was dying to get that out of my head and into a forum post, and since I now have, I suppose the only thing left to say is "I rule!". I know it's a lot of work, and even if you think this is a good idea it would take a good deal of time to implement (though I think there are a lot of the pieces already in place, like much of Surface), so I won't be holding my breath or anything. Just food for thought for the powers that be.

IAmSwampFoot
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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by IAmSwampFoot »

I don't feel any change is needed. Outcasts are built with the knowledge that they are 1) Outcasts and 2) bear a tag that marks them as such.

You built a character under these rules, you should learn to adapt to them and play that character accordingly. No one has to make an Outcast. It's a choice. And with that choice comes a mark.

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ReverentBlade
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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by ReverentBlade »

Seems like it should be common courtesy to note -why- one is an Outcast in their description...and to make it relevant to Arelith. Otherwise this little guard's just gonna make random things up and see how well you roll with it, if I'm not given anything to go by.

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Aellowyn
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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by Aellowyn »

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 3:58 am

As someone working in a position of settlement leadership, how should I roleplay the outcast tag? Do I say "Hey, you're the guy the blacksmith said killed six children!"?

For me, I've found roleplaying the Outcast tag as having seen their face on a wanted poster in the city, but not their name or what they did. It seems to be the easiest way to wrap my head around the concept and avoid accidental metagaming.

It also explains why you would recognize them at Mourn, because their faces are plastered on city wanted boards.

As an Outcast, this is also how I assume they know I'm someone of ill repute.

<redacted> Main
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ReverentBlade
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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by ReverentBlade »

Irongron wrote: Wed Feb 05, 2025 9:38 am

I'm afraid it's now time for one of my longer posts. I'm going to explain how outcast (and its tag) came to be, why I thought it necessary, and why I also found it a huge success. Why I wouldn't want to be without it, and what these tags - noble, outcast and pirate are intended to reflect.

The post is not intended to dismiss the concerns raised (I'm well aware of the RP awkwardness that can arise), but I hope it serves to show why I'm unconvinced by suggested alternatives, and why I don't feel this requires a 'solution'.

We will begin by going back in time a decade (a little over). Underdark was locked mostly in single digit numbers, and those then running Arelith were ready to pull plug on server. At that time it had about 7 racial settlements, all of them stagnant.. I had long pressed for an UD Cordor, and was finally given a free hand to make it. This, it was made clear to me, was a 'do or die' moment for Arelith's Underdark.

Two things, I was determined, had to happen, both of which I stand by to this day. First there could be NO exclusively drow settlement in the UD. It had proven to be a catalyst for toxic PvP, elitism, and generally served to make playing in the UD an unenjoyable prospect for the overwhelming majority of our players. For drow to remain a playable race they had to (and still have to) share a space with others.

The second, absolute must, was adding humans to the Underdark, as a start option (and not just as slaves). The player count list makes clear why - they are BY FAR the most popular race to play, and a thriving city would be impossible without them.

But how to do that? Sure there are some niche UD "human' subtypes, but they are so lore heavy, and one of the great things about the race is the flexibility of concept they afford.

Then what? If I allowed humans full access to UD then the balance of server, and the 'dangerous mystery' of the Underdark would be terminally diminished. These humans, it was clear, would need to share at least some of the surface disadvantages of UD native creatures.

They needed to be recognisable, and discriminated against, on sight. I could (and can) see no other reasonable option.

The idea of outcasts was born. Native Arelithians, who for any host of reasons, to be decided on by the player themselves, were no longer accepted in their home community. The Outcast tag was added to reflect their commonly recognised position in the Arelith surface community.

I cannot script every NPC to mutter under their breath, shake their head or pull their children away as an outcast walks past. For windows to close, for pedestrians to cross the road. Just as with nobles I cannot script shows of deference from every NPC. These tags, as with the Pirate tag for Senciffians, serve as an easy way by which to see social strata in one's native (or at least familiar) community. To those outside of it? They are meaningless.

The alternative of just allowing outcasts to hang out anywhere, only to be recognised as one if one happens to see them trying and failing to access a local merchant or registry agent would be highly artificial, and be a source of frustration. It also, as stated above, just results in an especially unfair environment for UD monsters, who would quicky become even less of a popular choice.

The addition of outcasts proved hugely successful, long before the release of NwN EE the UD became incredibly active, sometimes in triple digits. Without outcasts? This would never have happened.

It is also not lost on me that this topic has come up again so soon after I allowed some flexibility in allowing outcasts to settle on surface for first time, but the fact remains - this choice comes with one major disadvantage - an outcast PC will be shunned by NPCs on the Isle of Arelith.

As for this persistent question of whether one knows the identity of an outcast - no. Just as with nobles - their position within society is plainly visible without knowing exactly who they are. Deciding, and RPing the reason for one being shunned is a challenge to the player, and one where I do not want to railroad. Be creative.

As I said in the introduction I'm not closed to hearing alternatives, but as of right now - I still much prefer the current system.

For the settlement guards expected to maintain this vision, it seems odd that we are supposed to pretend this is happening in the background, remove the outcast, but never be able to ask the NPCs "Hey, why you freaking out? Who is that guy?"

Seems like it would only take two minutes to add "Please describe why you are an outcast in your description when you take this starting option." in the new character dialogue. It would solve a lot of awkwardness.

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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by Darkstorn42 »

So I've worked pretty hard to create a 'hero's fall' story. There are literal IC books written about it. I feel like I don't want to write a description in my examine because if you know, you know. I will admit, this took years of effort, but has been a blast. I get that it's not for everyone, but there is no 'one size fits all' solution to this. I like the wanted poster idea, but you are also free to not even react to the outcast tag. Literally no idea who someone is and why they aren't welcome. I've had the full gambit, and I encourage everyone to remember to let your characters not use all the information they have presented to them.

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ReverentBlade
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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by ReverentBlade »

It usually goes something like this:

Civilian: "Guard, there's someone over there that shouldn't be here!"

Guard: "An exile? Did you witness a crime?"

Civilian: "No, they have the...Thing. You know. The mark."

Guard: "Okay. I guess...we'll go look at the man with the Thing."

Two Minutes Later

Guard: "You there. Man with the Thing. You can't be here."

Outcast: "Why? What laws have a broken? What have I done?"

Guard: "Don't know, don't care. You have to leave."

Outcast either leaves or is PvPed and dumped outside of Cordor

Needless to say, its really lame, artificial, and unsatisfying for everyone. Surely we can find a better way to facilitate this dynamic.

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Marsi
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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by Marsi »

Arelith was very different when Andunor was introduced. The reigning mood was apathy. Unless you were a warlock there wasn't much in the way of socially enforced consequences. I don't think the outcast tag was a good solution, but I get why it was introduced.

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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by Darkstorn42 »

Marsi wrote: Fri Apr 04, 2025 2:05 am

Arelith was very different when Andunor was introduced. The reigning mood was apathy. Unless you were a warlock there wasn't much in the way of socially enforced consequences. I don't think the outcast tag was a good solution, but I get why it was introduced.

Oh, you mean like the apathy around hemomancy, blood arcana, and evil spells? (I specifically mean spells with the 'evil' descriptor.)

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Re: The outcast tag is a license to metagame.

Post by But Will It Blend »

It's only evil if it's not my OOC friend doing it.

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