Outdated Spellcraft

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

What it absolutely -is- an argument for is taking a long hard look at save or suck and CC spells and having them affect players very differently to NPCs, quite similar to how certain class abilities affect those differently. Looking at you, Nightmare Tactics.

I suspect when they get around to looking at this this will be the direction they go, in some form or another. When you read the context of what the people who make these decisions are saying about it and cut through all the noise of the opinions of the people who don't have any control over it, it's easy to come to the conclusion that spell adjustments in conjunction with some changes to saves is what they are looking at.

It's just going to take a while to get there because it would be silly to do the work now before the players get their hands on and try to break the new basin stuff. In the meantime, breaches, dispels, corners, missiles...these are the friends of wizards in pvp, and in pve the rest still matters.

[AstralUniverse]

Killing time in a long train ride so it's gonna be a loooong wall of text.

It all comes back to loremaggedon, as almost everything mechanics related inevitably does.

You're not wrong, but then again, I think almost anything we like or dont like about this game (mecahnically speaking in terms of blanace between classes) at this point can be traced back in some manner, to the single most impactful global change we ever did here. And, since we should also not expect loremaggeddon ever to be reverted, this point is kind of not very constructive or helpful as far as I can see. Any problem that you'd register it's root cause to "too much multiclassing options, no umd tax" can be put on loremaggeddon, but I think we should progress forward, and continue fine tuning the game eternally without going back to 2 classes + umd tax for the sake of balance cause I dont know about you but I think the vast vaaaast majority of the players and devs prefer the diversity even if balancing it turns out to be an eternal endless endevour.

That would be a much better argument if the DCs for certain other -noncaster- builds/abilities wouldn't be absolutely through the roof. I believe it's also a recognized and balanced fact at this stage that balance affects PvP and PvE very differently.

I'm actually not against that though. I think it's great that some builds have a strong chance to land their stuff!

Yeah so it really depends on what the 'stuff' is. I think you'll notice that the more impactful the stuff is, the more the build has to sacrifice in order to get it, and sometimes the very usage of these buttons can be extremely punishing. Harbinger is very high risk high reward by design. That said, the effects themselves dont really involve any save/die or be CCed for literally minutes. If you're talking about things like harbinger atrocities and dirty fight DC then I dont necesarily disagree with you, and in those specific places I've been concerned (and vocal about it) that the dc potential is possibly a bit overtuned, but I'm still on the fence. I did play harb live twice and the very big ticket DC abilities are SO punishing to use that.. yeah.. idk what I think about that and I've already voiced my concerns about the dc potential in the harb feedback thread long time ago.

I do not believe though that it's a good argument to take some extremely crippling and unfun spells (save or sucks...certain CC) as the reason to keep saves on an inflated level - or DCs on the classes who have access to those spell comparatively low.

Is anyone doing that tho? I dont recall reading from anyone that "DC spells are crap cause the shitty ones are crap, and the good ones are good". I keep reading that the saves people reach are alegedly high enough for fish-1s territory (which is simply NOT. TRUE. PERIOD.) so all DC spells are crap, not just the worse ones.
Does it mean that some spells are far less effective than others? Sure does, but that's really a whole different discussion, because the good DC spells (even if there's a limited selection of them for each class) ARE good enough that we cannot just lower saves irresponsibly.

What it absolutely -is- an argument for is taking a long hard look at save or suck and CC spells and having them affect players very differently to NPCs, quite similar to how certain class abilities affect those differently. Looking at you, Nightmare Tactics.

Regarding PVE,
Yeah, I mean.. that would be one way to go at it, but I personally dont want to see a lot of inconsistency between pve and pvp in ways that are notable for the player if we can avoid it. I think, if anything, we should make summons more resistant to mob's wofs and turns and all that stuff, so casters have smoother time in pve (if that's not already smooth enough) via having more reliable summons in pve, without it effecting their own spells, just the mobs spells. That, I think, would be preferable to addressing the effects of the spells PCs cast and the inconsistency would feel greater on the player end if we do it via PC spells. Addressing mobs spell effects and the mobs saves are the best variables to tweak in regards to pve for casters.

It's not just me

Never said it's just you. It's basically all those instances someone shouts saves are too high. I perfectly understood you are not in favor of nerfing spellcraft globally.

Next, "Lesser of two evils" implies that the current state is evil, which is a huge hyperbole you can extend to pretty much anything in life if you have some sort of a perfect utopia in your head. In reality, everything is lesser of two (or more) evils if you want to look at it that way.

unless you were a part of the original NWN design team, you won't fault anybody for questioning your "authority" on how things should look like - you can sure voice your preference, but at this point it's hardly necessary

Everything I say is "my opinion", but I dont speak from any authority, and even if I were the server owner or a base nwn dev I still believe authority doesnt make you right or wrong and is irrelevant. However, what I said is based on facts and 20 years of experience of mine and others I talk to, which is more than I can say about some of the posters in balance discussions. And yes, I feel it is necessary to voice my |preference| (lol) when there's so much misinformation and bs going on. However, no one is forcing you to read it or reply to it. I'm not here to change your mind. I'm here under the assumption that devs read these forums and can be influenced by player feedback which is generally not a bad thing, when the feedback is properly established and unbiased, but the dev doesnt always know when it's unestablished and a pile of bs so I present counter points and will continue to do so for as long as I play here. Also sometimes players are sad about X mechanic but they are only sad because they dont understand the full picture, so I present a full picture to make them less sad and feel less like their character falls between the chairs.

I was suggesting that players would be likely to reach for div dips to compensate for any potential tweaks to saves

Yeah so I did understand what you meant and addressed exactly that. IF~ spellcraft were nerfed people would not just pile div dips on every character because it costs them a lot, and they are more likely at that point to just go deep on the div class rather than dipping and at that point, we might see a big surgence in deep div classes in the play rates, but neither of us is in favor of seeing this happens (and for the record, we would need to nerf cha-saves at that point if we did go this route but still not because of dips).

To summerize over all to no one in particular,
I think the real core disagreement between caster players and those who rather not insta-lose to casters, is the answer to "What odds should the average lvl 30 geared character have to succeed vs hard cc or death?" and on that many of us disagree, because the casters think that 10-15% (which is what they realistically have if they build optimal for combat**!!!) to land cc on every spellcast, is not enough, and I say confidently that it's a freaking lot, and I've played casters plenty of times since the rune era (before hard5s were disabled) and DC spells are balanced (except the aoe stuff that didnt respect spellcraft at the time like storm of vengeance. Those spells were ridiculously overpowered).
* not the server's fault that most casters these days dont bother building optimally for combat because they are baited by too many flavor feats and skills. So if their DCs on lvl 9th spells are lower than 42, they are disqualified from balance discussion I'm afraid, in the same manner that a rogue that doesnt take any will save feats is disqualified from the same discussion

Player culture is also a big part of this - we have a lot more caster characters played by casual players who dont build optimally or care about pvp in their character concept design (And as a build advisor on discord that gets about 5-10 PMs per week (sometimes even much more than that when it's right after big updates) asking for build advice with their character concept, I see it all the time and I still attempt to have them get the most out of their sheet without compromising their concept), than we have mundane players going suboptimal in this fashion. It should be no surprised that mundane characters out-perform in pvp when they have less 'flavor' feats and skills, and just minmax their combat stats. Boosting DC spells effectiveness isnt going to change this culture in a healthy way - it will just result in casters having the cake while eating it, and mundanes being virtually not worth playing at all.

[Naghast]

• not the server's fault that most casters these days dont bother building optimally for combat because they are baited by too many flavor feats and skills. So if their DCs on lvl 9th spells are lower than 42, they are disqualified from balance discussion I'm afraid, in the same manner that a rogue that doesnt take any will save feats is disqualified from the same discussion

Just to clarify: This is achievable (As in DC 42 or above) by:
Wizard: 4 methods.
1: Shadowmage with 15 intelligence modifier (Either a +2 int race OR great int feats)
2: Palemaster dip (Specifically on energy drain spell)
3: Evocation specialist with 16 intelligence modifier (A race with +2 int AND great int feats)
4: Necromancy specialist OR Palemaster, with SPECIFICALLY curse storm, and 15 intelligence modifier. (I guess a shadowmage PM would hit DC of 44 on curse storm here, nice)

Cleric: 4 methods AFAIK.
1: Cloistered cleric with 15 wisdom modifier (Either a +2 wis race OR great wis) on their domain spells
2: Evangelist cleric with 15 wisdom modifier on enchantment spells
3: Seeker cleric with 15 wisdom modifier on divination or illusion spells
4: Death or undeath domain cleric with 15 wisdom modifier, on SPECIFICALLY curse storm spell

Sorcerer: 2* methods (Basically same as wizard, but without evo spec being an option)
1: Shadowmage with 15 Charisma modifier (Either a +2 cha race OR great cha feats)
2: Palemaster dip (Specifically on energy drain spell and curse storm, if the spell's description does not lie)
3*: Honorable mention that if you go with a +2 cha race, take great cha, AND take 10 RDD LEVELS, you will end up with DC 42 on your lvl 9 spells without shadowmage. But you give up on epic spells entirely. Also requires a major award to be spent. So not recommended.

Favored soul: 3* methods (Not sure whether they actually work, so take it with a grain of salt. It SHOULD, but it may as well not.)
1, 2 and 3: Have 15 cha mod and dip cleric. And take either cloistered (Domains), evangelist (Ench) or seeker (Div/Illu) path. AFAIK favored soul levels stack with cleric levels for path progression, so it SHOULD work. Potentially. Not sure if clrc DC increases work on spells cast from FS spellbook.

Side note: I do NOT include Save debuffs into that; As that would easily make just any wizard/sorc qualify if they lead with mind fog.

Worth mentioning: Shamans, afaik, have no way to reach a DC of 42 on their lvl 9 spells. Period. UNLESS cleric dip works on their spells too, then, look back to cleric/fs.

If i missed any other method here then do let me know, and please do include what that method is.

[AstralUniverse]

Thank you, Naghast
(btw this guy is a fantastic mage player, if any of you folks were looking for one)

About cleric path's effects on other spellbooks, dont quote me but I do recall vaguely that I was getting the enchantment dc bonus from evangelist when casting warcry from bard spellbook, but I'm not 100% sure. It's been a while and it is not something I was actively testing deliberately at the time. I'm also under the impression that the bonus works (or should work) on all mind effecting spells, not just enchantment, because that's how it's advertised in the wiki. Still worth testing but either way in this discussion we should treat it as if it effects the spellschool regardless of which class spellbook is used.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

This is a ping more than a quote, since astral named you as a fantastic mage player.

When was the last time you beat a premium build using dc spells? Can you describe how it went down? Is it a common thing? If the answer is yes to "common", was it common before the 5% nerf and do you think it would be common after the basin updates?

These are the types of examples/answers that will change minds, if that is your goal. Because if you tell someone they have a 10 percent chance of beating a fort save with a death spell, they will probably think "but smart people always have deathward up first". And if you tell someone they have a 15% chance to get someone on a cc spell, they are going to think "you mean more like 2 percent, because I have to do it twice because of -pray".

[AstralUniverse]

oh crap I apologize sencerely.

[Naghast]

This is a ping more than a quote, since astral named you as a fantastic mage player.

When was the last time you beat a premium build using dc spells? Can you describe how it went down? Is it a common thing? If the answer is yes to "common", was it common before the 5% nerf and do you think it would be common after the basin updates?

These are the types of examples/answers that will change minds, if that is your goal. Because if you tell someone they have a 10 percent chance of beating a fort save with a death spell, they will probably think "but smart people always have deathward up first". And if you tell someone they have a 15% chance to get someone on a cc spell, they are going to think "you mean more like 2 percent, because I have to do it twice because of -pray".

Oookay. One by one.

1: "When was the last time you beat a premium build using dc spells?"
Like 3-4 months ago, i think?

2: "Can you describe how it went down?"
One was during a tournament in sharps. I faced off against a weaponmaster, and got him with a willsave. My spell's willsave DC was 38 (lvl 8 spell). The victim's will save bonus was, when i cast the spell, 23. The person was forced to burn their pray right there and then. I won the fight. (...Like, 70% success rate on that spell)

Other time, i dueled someone in a remote location. I will not disclose who it was (IC reasons), but if i remember correctly the build was something akin to shaman/loremaster/monk, or maybe some other dip there. I -FEEL- it was a loremaster shaman. Either way, their fortitude save, when they was hit by my spell, was 28. The person didn't get to react in time to even pray. I won the fight.
(On transmute breath that'd be 45% success rate.)

Both times i was informed that the individuals minmaxed their build for purposes of PVP.

Mind you, i used other things than just the DC spell. I used dispels. I used things like mind fog. I used -saveless- spells and tools to apply pressure. I kept the fact that i do have several high-DC spells as an ace up my sleeve (Well, one of many), so my opponents wouldn't anticipate it much and would not keep their immunity wards up.

I don't -RELY- on DC's much. I can very much fight, and win, without using a single DC spell, and have done so plenty of times. But when an opportunity is found, i keep that ace ready to use it. Because it's an option to have.

...And to complete the other things:
3: "Is it a common thing?"
Currently, i'd say, more common than you think. Before 5% nerf it was less common, yes, but i still sometimes found people with low reflex or low will. Look above, i had to pick my targets. It was, however, oftentimes frustrating to find people that would just have all their saves high back-to-back, yes, and i did voiced my opinion on discord back then. As some of you probably remember.

4: "do you think it would be common after the basin updates?"
My gut feeling is to say "Yes*" whlist also pointing at circles vs. alignment getting their unconditional +4 unisave fixed. A.k.a, yes i do believe average saves will go up with the rework, but i also believe they will still be tad lower than before due to that circles fix.
I also believe it will still be very much possible to find someone who has a low save that you can exploit, or weaken their saves through other methods (Dispel), even among builds that did optimise for pvp.

You just shouldn't expect to end the fight in 3 seconds by opening with a deathspell. As it should be. Fights ending in split second are kinda underwhelming imo.

Edit:
Forgot to add one last thing, with my prior post i was just trying to provide numbers and knowledge. Methods of reaching the beforementioned DC 42.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

oh crap I apologize sencerely.

I don't know what you are apologizing for, I was giving your side of the argument its best chance at changing minds lol. Telling folks to spin the wheel and they might get lucky (which is basically what everything you have written in this thread amounts to) is not going to convince anyone that dc spells are in a good spot when compared to the downside of you not getting lucky.

Edit:
Forgot to add one last thing, with my prior post i was just trying to provide numbers and knowledge. Methods of reaching the beforementioned DC 42.

I get that, and I wasn't trying to put you on the spot even if that's what it felt like. I just saw an opportunity for someone to add something to the conversation that was new, and I thank you for taking the time to oblige. I'm not sure you are going to find a plethora of 24 will weaponsmasters these days as the flavor of the month is 16/17 levels of a divine for the might/shield synergies, and I'm not even sure what the shaman build you mentioned is trying to be lol, but I am sure there are pvp ready builds post 5% nerf that need the basin changes to get their saves back to a competitive level again. It's definitely a good time to be a cloistered cleric with destruction domain.

I'm not sure you are changing minds on whether or not dc vs saves are in a good place, since you yourself called it rare to use them in pvp, but I'm 100% with you that it shouldn't be save or die with the first action of the fight. This is why I think, and I believe the devs are in the same place, that the solution is going to take more nuance than just lowering saves or raising dcs. But without the basin changes, it's impossible to do right now, and as a result kinda pointless to debate.

[Naghast]

I am also kinda obliged to point out my own dc again: it was 38 on a lvl 8 spell.
I built for combat, but not for combat using exclusively dc's. Hence why i don't rely on them much beyond keeping it as one of my options.

[AstralUniverse]

I don't know what you are apologizing for

I was giving a shoutout without fully considering that the player in question might not feel like getting questioned because of it. Apparently it's all good tho, dont worry about it.

I will also add from my own experience playing a sorcerer,
(and for the record, it was long time ago, but I was not using any dc based spellcraft bypassing aoe spells, and runes did exist, and hard 5s did exist, and upon being KDed the kd immunity granted was 18 seconds rather than 12).
I was playing pure 30 sorc, with esf evocation, abjuration and necromancy, with 40 cha, hellball + gr, no shadoweave bonus, no ac, no discipline.

I was using cloudkill and incindiary cloud for their saveless effects and for kiting, I was using mords to shave off some of the opposition's save bonuses from spells and breachable immunities, I was staying away from melee range like my life depends on it, always prioritizing soft saveless cc slows, timestop, g.sanc and other defensive measures jsut to keep my distance away over actual damage dealing or DC based hard cc, and only when I have enough space I would cast more offensively. the saveless KD from hellball was a big deal too. But ultimately I would win the fights when I managed to land a DC spell or two eventually, not immediately as an opener. I would very often discover 2 minutes into the fight that my opponent has 20 will save and that I could just open with Fear and win in 3 seconds (but to be fair, maybe their saves were in fact higher before I threw epic abjuration mords at them).

[better than a fool]

Is 16 seconds really enough time at all to utilize that save reducer thing? Ive read a lot of posts in this thread, and it just seems like you would die if you believed you could rely upon that. It's like imagining a scenario where your enemy is a wooden dummy who stands there and waits for you to reduce their saves to having to roll below a 7 to fail. And then they still have to roll a 6 or lower to fail.

[Coolguy McMagic]

It's 18 seconds, but no, I do not think it's something you will usually get to utilize a lot. Casters are not helpless outside DC spells - far from it, in fact - but as Naghast described, you don't beat someone by spamming save-or-suck spells of the same descriptor until they fail. You can cast only so many spells against a semi-competent player that have no impact other than lowering saves. Your opponent will use this chance either to pressure you with damage, interrupt your spell casts, attempt crowd control of their own or apply the appropriate immunity effects to themselves. I posit that softening someone up with repeated dispels will be far more effective in getting them to actually fail a roll instead of lowering their saving throws via that mechanic.

[Kalthariam]

Remember, Clerics having Wisdom to AC from Monk Dips, is BAD. How dare you want to to have AC as a Cleric.

But everyone getting full Charisma to Saves from a Blackguard Dip is perfectly fine and healthy for the game.

[Kythana]

Monk AC isn't subjected to flat footed, is passive, and only requires a class dip.

Divine shield AC is subjected to being flat footed, requires an active use with limited duration, 13 str, 2 feats, and a class dip.

Moreover, just about every CHA caster has had its synergies with div dips gutted, with the exception of sorc. FVS and Invoker cannot benefit. Warlock tier 3 pacts disables it, and generally wants to go pure anyways.

Div dips are not a problem at all, and I don't know why they're even brought up.

Many commenters in this thread are stuck back in 2018.

[Kalthariam]

I said literally nothing about Divine Shield.

I said Charisma to Saves, which is what this entire threads about, saving throws being too high.

If you're going to try to criticize me at least criticize what I said, not some random point. I never once brought up Divine shield.

Apparently dipping monk or Vig for AC is something that needs to be hard limited mechanically, but charisma to saves is perfectly fine, and one of the biggest sources of Saving throws.

But here we are, Casters being significantly diminished in their power and Martials running over everything as usual.

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact getting Saving Throw Bonuses is remarkably easy, but for some reason getting AC bonuses is hard limited.

LIke limiting AC from Monk dips
Like saying there's absolutely no benefits to adding new shields to the game and nerfing the best shield available.

But sure, latch onto the Charisma to AC thing that I didn't even mention.

Yeah sure, getting save or sucked spelled sucks.

Know what else sucks?

Getting a martial run up on you and double crit flurrying you from 100% to zero.

One you can death ward yourself against or any number of spells.

The other you just better pray they don't roll well and your class isn't gutted by having no AC options.

Amazing that it's usually the casters that it's not okay to effortlessly steamroll through stuff on, and problematic if they can, but if a martial character can do it, no one gives a damn.

This server has been heavily in the favor of Martials for years, especially martials that get access to tons of magical options.

But no one cares, no one gives a damn because they like their martials beating people up, how dare a spellcaster have a conjured creature that have potentially cause a martial issues, better nerf the crap out of that, even though there are literally effortless ways to completely remove them!

No one's allowed to challenge martial characters, and until that's changed spellcasters will always be poor on Arelith.

[Kythana]

lol

that's not my experience playing a caster for the past 6 months.

[Sincra]

Given it's been brought up here, and there's another thread going on about runics, I'm going to divulge what's going on and where the project is at.

Firstly, an apology, I know many people were and are eager to see the update to basins/dweomercraft/enchanting out but my IRL health has been in flux for about 8ish months now with gradual decline.
The pause in all updates and notices by myself was due to a steeper decline that left me unable to be at my computer.
Not asking for sympathies here, just an understanding that it's not for a lack of want! I'd intended to have it out a couple months back now.

On saves, I asked various building individuals of the community and those on the team for any outliers they forsee with the new system.
It turns out that the outliers in that are the outliers as now, with what I'd estimate to be a 2-3 increase in saves purely due to being able to more cost effectively fit varying things onto items.
Generally this takes the form of covering your two weakest saves via vs fort/will/ref at 4 instead of 6 cost.
The builds that were presented that stood out however had some common elements, it's not really worth listing the builds as it's a rule that holds true across any who can do these:

• Able to take Pre epic and epic will feats
• Can gear their weakest or two weakest saves as stats in addition to saves (if a ref class, gearing con and wis for example)
• Div builds that can shuffle some things around thanks to the costs, actually doesn't change a great deal due to already being strong in 2 usually, it does however give them more gear dynamism that will likely allow lore to be easier for example.

And that's all I've seen when demanding to see gear, feats, stats and the calculations.
Notably, you can combine the first and second one on some builds which elevates them to "safe vs all magic bar 5%, on paper" territory.

As for runes, I'll link this post over in that and explain a bit there.

[In Sorrow We Trust]

birb

hey Sincra, I know you didn't ask for this but I hope you're starting to feel better again. All your work is appreciated but your health comes first

on topic: i think the thread here corroborates your findings pretty well. i say keep to the path and if there's any issues in the future it can probably be resolved with adjustments to div to saves or spellcraft itself

edit: or class save tables maybe

[AstralUniverse]

There's a common trend among mechanically uninformed players in which they yell that XYZ is broken and that no one cares(!!!) but in reality, XYZ isnt broken and those uninformed players just continue their blabery with no intention to have a good faith discussion, having their opinions challenged, or having their misinformation corrected. They are essentially flat-earthers - the arelith version. There's really no point arguing with such posts.

[Xerah]

Unfortunately it doesn’t break any rules (though the passive aggressiveness about them being right might be) so I have to leave it up.

[PowerWord Rage]

They are essentially flat-earthers - the arelith version. There's really no point arguing with such posts.

All of what you wrote are reasonable except this.
There can be disagreement on polar opposites but this sentence shouldn't appear in the game. Just walk away from the discussion if it's uncomfortable, there's no win or lose.

[Edens_Fall]

Post

I hope you feel better and are able to recover in time! We all your contributions to the server. Know you are both appreciated and missed, but always make sure to care for yourself first kay!

[better than a fool]

It's 18 seconds, but no, I do not think it's something you will usually get to utilize a lot. Casters are not helpless outside DC spells - far from it, in fact - but as Naghast described, you don't beat someone by spamming save-or-suck spells of the same descriptor until they fail. You can cast only so many spells against a semi-competent player that have no impact other than lowering saves. Your opponent will use this chance either to pressure you with damage, interrupt your spell casts, attempt crowd control of their own or apply the appropriate immunity effects to themselves. I posit that softening someone up with repeated dispels will be far more effective in getting them to actually fail a roll instead of lowering their saving throws via that mechanic.

Late response because I kinda lost internet for a significant time right after posting this.

I see, that makes sense. Thank you for the suggestions too. And my bad about the math. I am glad I had the right idea, though.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

There's a common trend among mechanically uninformed players in which they yell that XYZ is broken and that no one cares(!!!) but in reality, XYZ isnt broken and those uninformed players just continue their blabery with no intention to have a good faith discussion, having their opinions challenged, or having their misinformation corrected. They are essentially flat-earthers - the arelith version. There's really no point arguing with such posts.

I mean, let's put aside the flat earther comment for a second since that's something that should have never been said, and actually break down your point.

You are saying these folks are misinformed and yelling that xyz is broken, but if they are wrong who cares? Do you have 0 faith in the devs capacity to weed out the nonsense feedback from the good feedback? Because the only other logical explanation for arguing as hard as you do against these threads is that they may be on to something, and you don't want it exposed. And if it's not one of those two things driving you, I am actually pretty curious as to what is, because I can't for the life of me figure it out lol.

[AstralUniverse]

My comparison to flat-earther is valid. I dont know what's so offensive or whatever. If a person refuses to acknowledge logic and responses with innter-conflicted, paradoxial or detached from reality opinions, then the analogy to a flat-earther is valid, even if the arelith player isnt actually a flat-earther. It was a metaphore.

As for my trust of the devs.
I do trust the devs, but people are people, and it's a very complex game with many classes and interactions that no one should be expected to get it all correct without community feedback, and if the forums are filled with bad feedback (not saying this is always the case) without good feedback offered as a counter - you can bet that the devs will make more incorrect decisions than they otherwise would have. It's our responsibility as informed players (when we are in fact informed in the subject at hand) to offer pushback on the nonesense. Or that's how I view it anyway. I dont need to make an effort to keep my 'secret tech' secret because it is never brought up on the forums, hence 'secret tech'. Maybe, and yes I know it might be a shocker, but maybe I'm simply concerned with the health of the server. I dont need powerful builds to stomp casual low pvp exerperience arelithians, I just want the game to be a fair game.

The lack of vocal and thorough enough feedback from the community has led us to things like Monk Summer, the TimeStop nerf, the WM buff, all of which were later reverted after few months, leaving players salty that their character got ruined and this whole cycle could have been avoided by good feedback.