Dismissal trap & Role of Rogues with capital R

[Winter83]

Regarding the gear sets letting a character effectively pass all those checks, the best answer would be to calculate all of the checks in the same manner that lore checks to understand languages are rolled: exclude gear bonuses.

That'd solve a lot of things.

[DaTexican]

If you do this though, doesnt that make putting the lockpicking enchant on your equipment useless to the game then? If thats the case wouldnt it just be easier to remove the enchant from the game?

[Ecstatic]

Depends how far you want to take it.

You could deny gear bonuses just to the Arelith-specific checks, as is done for languages and appraise, and leave the lock picking gear in. You could potentially also deny bonuses on lock picking checks as well, in which case the relevant gear becomes useless, joining loads of other non functional enchantments. You cannot, to my knowlege, remove individual skills from the enchantment listings, though, just like you cannot remove non-casting classes from the "bonus spell slot" list in the basin menu.

[Artos13]

Why put a bonus treasure behind a lock if you can hide them or make the way to it open after some puzzle? =D
Would be nice to see Search, Lore and other skills having some more uses. And puzzles is aways nice. So are riddles! (maybe requesting a chat entry and such)

These are generally things that Mithreas or the more script-oriented minions might do. My depth of scripting is pretty limited to whatever Lilac Soul's script generator can come up with (I can hear Mithreas laughing from here). It's enough to do some things though, and I do what I can.

That being said, there's still a few puzzles/hidden things that I've put in the game that I've never seen anyone come even close to finding. That's the funny thing; it's hard to know how much mystery stuff is out there if you don't know it's out there

Got a Bejuril Gem?

[dragoneyeIIVX]

For what it's worth, I really like the theme that everyone can get to treasure, but rogues can get to treasure faster/safer. Locking up loot behind high DC locks seems like an arbitrary limitation - in the same way that many new games give you many avenues to the same goal (think Dishonored), having many routes to the same end (exp/gold/loot) is really nice from a player standard. On Arelith, things can be done aggressively, quietly, quickly, patiently... it's a nice mix. Characters simply have options to choose from, rather than "well I didn't dip rogue."

[Twily]

For what it's worth, I really like the theme that everyone can get to treasure, but rogues can get to treasure faster/safer. Locking up loot behind high DC locks seems like an arbitrary limitation - in the same way that many new games give you many avenues to the same goal (think Dishonored), having many routes to the same end (exp/gold/loot) is really nice from a player standard. On Arelith, things can be done aggressively, quietly, quickly, patiently... it's a nice mix. Characters simply have options to choose from, rather than "well I didn't dip rogue."

I would like this, if it was the case. Sadly, I don't think this is the case currently. Familiars are way too good at getting locks/traps. Some argue that a rogue can get slightly higher skill points than an equal level familiar, but they always leave out one factor. A rogue can beat a familiar that requires nothing to summon if they spend a fortune. Feats, max skill points, stats, full +2 gear, etc. I feel that's unbalanced. A familiar's skill I think should be the same as an average equal level rogue, not a skill focused one. Also, I think it's silly a level 8 familiar can open nearly every door and lock on the whole server as well as see and disarm nearly any trap.

Presently, a mage that chooses the lock/trap familiars basically are as good as some of the best rogues and they don't have to spend a thing to do it. Plus the familiar is a risk-free way to check for traps before opening it as well as containing other goodies(such as a golems spell breach, petrification, etc).

[yellowcateyes]

The reason this is often a prickly subject is because rogues who have invested in the skills and equipment to open locks are rarely the same builds that can solo the epic-level dungeon to get to those treasure chests. On the other hand, high level casters who can solo large swathes of content single-handedly can summon their free class perk to open the treasure chest a the end, without any kind of investment or sacrifice needed to field that familiar.

The pixie familiar is of such utility that there have been a number of evil-aligned mages summoning the good-aligned creature and roleplaying that it is their "slave" in order to justify having it around.

Regardless, I do support the multiple avenue approach to dungeon design as well as a diverse set of mobs so that Sneak Attacks are never a useless primary class feature in a given area. However, the solution involves quite a bit of builder work to alleviate a basic lack of parity between two career paths.

[Yellena]

These are generally things that Mithreas or the more script-oriented minions might do. My depth of scripting is pretty limited to whatever Lilac Soul's script generator can come up with (I can hear Mithreas laughing from here). It's enough to do some things though, and I do what I can.

That being said, there's still a few puzzles/hidden things that I've put in the game that I've never seen anyone come even close to finding. That's the funny thing; it's hard to know how much mystery stuff is out there if you don't know it's out there

Got a Bejuril Gem?

Nice!
Maybe with enough associated skill the character can use -investigate to get hints? I menaged to find few but interesting puzzles arround. However, somw some of them didn't make enough sense to me and I passed them by trial and error.
I could see some skills being used to aid this.

-Lore could aid in many cases, except when logic is involved (unless the result have something to do with history, culture and such). An example would be the XXX and XXX symbols in the second Puzzle of the Aisles of Insanity. Another exemple would be the "mystery of the desert". And the mistery of the Elks too.

-Appraise and search could be used to see that XXX symbol in more used than the other, suggesting it may be related to the answer. Search could also be used to find the answer (or part of it) hidden in another place (possible noted by one of the forgetful users of the puzzle in case he forgot it).

-Listen (maybe with a simultaneous concentration check) could be used to hear different sounds when pressing things. "Maybe a click" sound when the person press the right button.

-Set/Disarm Traps could aid with something similarly to engineering (working devices).

-Lore, Spellcraft and UMD could give hints about magical puzzles.

...out of ideas.


I think it would be super fun to find hints in game about things. Even if they are in other places, like a ruined book found in the Wharftown Buy's Hideout thay aids with the mistery of the black flower or the aisles. This could motivate people to explore and creates a lot of IC reasons to do so.
"Wow, look at this guys: ...the ...oor... to ... treas... vault lies... the wall... ... with th... one eyed... skeleton... the cave... mont... ...almtree." I think there is a treasure vault inside a cave whose entrance is near a palmtree!


Possible a bit offtopic, but something that could be super fun also would be a system to treasure hunt! You can find maps in chests, leaders (by killing or PPing him) and hidden places (search near bookshelves, desks and other furnitures.
Once a map is "translated", it generates a specific map and a random treasure chest that can be found if a shovel or mining pick is used in the right place (Area XXX, walkable coordinates YYY). The specific map will give hints of the location based on the translation potential.

[DaTexican]

So I don't know about the Pixie, but I did try out the badger for druids for the lockpick/'disable trap. Won't lie, it was nice being able to open the chest myself, but I also was in areas that were 1-3 lv's below me because I was soloing during the test (don't wana die now ). Yes he could succeed at all the things, but the animal companion was getting a bonus that was 4 less than my strait rogue gets at the same lv. The animal companion gets NOTHING compared to the bonus from attributes that others do because they cannot have it boosted. As noted above, they also cannot have gear made to put on them. Note, you can only summon them ONCE. If they die in combat for some reason, you lose your lockpicker. As for the whole "trap dummy" argument, I cant speak for the pixie as you can literally control them, but the badger's AI is STUPID! You ever tried to move him around anything carefully, like a trap? Near impossible. You cant use them as a trap dummy really. Plus, I understand the argument for the pixie as I don't understand the pixie, but the badger at least has rogue lv's. It at least makes some sense

From what I have seen the average party is 3-4 people. Personally I think its nice to not NEED to have a rogue no matter what to get into things. It allows a few other classes to fill that role if they are running the right companion. IDK about wizards and their whole solo everything comment, but I tried the badger and it deals (on a crit) a max of 5 dmg at my current lv. Everthing at my lv has some sort of DR at this point. AKA your forfeiting your animal companion for combat in place for utility... whats the problem. I could be running the boar/roth and be doing 20-30 dmg a hit with 2-3 attacks a round? I think thats pretty balanced. Again for wizards though, you'll have to ask one of em arcaney people with their strange ways XD

Personally I do really like the Idea of having HIGH DC locks, but only for shortcuts and the like. Thats cool! Also like the idea of more puzzles! Plz and thank you puzzles!

[Winter83]

I find it amusing, how "Rogue-requirement" is disliked.

Considering we already have high-end dungeons which require certain classes to be doable. (referring to the dragon bosses, which require stupidly high AB classes and insanely good tanks, or magical nukes. Only a few classes/ I daresay builds, can fulfill these roles.)

I heard it many times in game, that :
"-Oh lets find an arcane archer or a wizard to beat this or that dragon".

But never once
"-Without a rogue we wont succeed."

[Twily]

I heard it many times in game, that :
"-Oh lets find an arcane archer or a wizard to beat this or that dragon".

But never once
"-Without a rogue we wont succeed."

Gotta admit, I agree with this entirely.

Even if every dungeon doesn't require them, it'd be nice to see one or two where a rogue is required(and by that, I mean animal companions/familiars not cutting it), simply for the sake of diversity.

One possible solution to the familiar/animal companion lock thing: Could it be made so they can't open locked doors? There's shortcuts here and there as well as some nice chests behind locked doors, but there's still a lot of chests out in the open as well. It could be a decent middle ground. Knock for example, doesn't open locked doors.

I'm not sure if this was a side affect of making it so quarter doors can't be opened, but if Knock can't open a door, why should a familiar be able to? The spell knock requires more investment than a familiar, so if mages are going to have a way to open doors, wouldn't the spell Knock be better?

[The Rambling Midget]

But never once
"-Without a rogue we wont succeed."

Recent module changes have encouraged treasure hunters to start hiring rogues to open the best chests in the toughest areas. I've actually seen more than a few adventures halted in their infancy for lack of a Rogue.

[Ecstatic]

Actually, I can think of two or three of my all time favorite dungeons which stop (or at least used to stop) you dead in your tracks with no rogue 20-40% of the way in. No alternate path, do not pass go, do not collect $200. So yeah, that's pretty "Rogue or GTFO", so far as it goes.

By contrast, I have never seen another class be mandatory. A role? Sure. But never a class.

In the dragon example, and the same goes for all epic bosses, I will always ask for three things: someone capable of damaging it, someone capable of tanking the agro, and one source of support, usually either healing or dispelling, depending on the boss. The short list of base classes that can fill one of those roles and thus be integral to the party are:

Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorc, and Wizard.

A good combo of a bard, fighter, monk, and Druid can beat Abazuur just as well as an AA, Mage, Cleric, and Paladin party.

Those aforementioned locked doors are responsible for the vast majority of the times I've packed up an adventure early and gone home. I can't think of a single time I've ever turned back because of lack of cleric or wizard.

On top of that "we can't go further because we'll die if we do" is a Much more organic and enjoyable reason than "because we didn't bring an arbitrarily mandatory class".

[Dr_Hazard89]

Add more difficult bonus content.