Appraise skill changes

[iria_huntress]

On the flip side, travelling merchants (in this era) would often go from city to city buying and selling between merchants. Mass production isn't necessary for there to be "suppliers" and "merchants". There were still suppliers and merchants. This was true even for medicine. The apothecary grows the herbs, the (whatever you call your medicine men) then sell them at a slightly higher cost for treatment. Or the traveling merchant purchases it, goes on to the next city, and sells it. So on, so forth.

And if a merchant is skilled enough to get a decent deal (in an era where fencing is very much an every day part of life), and then turn around and sell it, who cares? The only issue I saw was people buying from one NPC to sell to another. That was game breaking. Reselling items purchased from another merchant? Perfectly lore friendly.

[Nitro]

There is a difference between selling from merchant to merchant in different cities, to buying hundreds or thousands of a merchants stock, walking 200ft to a secure stall and dumping it all in for a 20-40% higher price.

[iria_huntress]

SO! My question has yet to be answered. Nobody has even touched on the subject. How is this fun for everyone? How is this more than simply punishment for a few exploiters? I can tell you a LOT of things that EVERYONE does that makes no sense. Dying and not caring, for instance. Let's just make ALL death permanent (without a raise or resurrection), if you want to throw the nuclear option at things you perceive as lore breaking.

I promise you that will greatly reduce people solo grinding areas, if you want force people to RP in a manner you perceive as best, without any consideration for RL or fun.

While we're at it! Let's remove changing item names and descriptions. That meat can't possibly be roasted pork! You got the meat from a deer! And you cooked it in a KETTLE! With NUTS! And FRUIT!

And remove raise dead and resurrection scrolls from merchants. They aren't very common in any DnD setting. Let's go for accuracy here! Not creativity and fun!

[gilescorey]

SO! My question has yet to be answered. Nobody has even touched on the subject. How is this fun for everyone? How is this more than simply punishment for a few exploiters?

I'd argue people being able to print limitless amounts of coin just by spending a few hours walking back and forth was a lot less fun than how it is, currently. And I don't think the number of people that were doing it is just "a few", either.

Also, the amount of exclamation points and general tone you're using suggest some emotional investment, which isn't ever a good thing for anyone in things like this. If you're so incensed as I get the feeling you are (and if you aren't, forgive me, please), I'd advise taking a step back for a while and coming back to discussion with a cooler head.

[susitsu]

If there was a way to make it so appraise buying applied to only items you can sell to other NPCs, that would be great...

As it stands, with my job, the one person I share my shop with I can barely keep up with. And they just do like three wands at a time. Meanwhile, I sell essences non-stop at lower prices than literally every other shop in the Underdark. I make about 100-200 GP profit off of every essences, while other people always aim to make about 500 GP. I do my best, between real life and roleplay to provide to the players around me and this has severely gimped that effort.

It's entirely my intent to make sure that other PCs have access to more affordable goods so that they can actually manage a survivable income. While I'm too tired, or too busy with work, or too busy with the minimal hours of roleplay I get between it all, I try to bring in Raise Dead scrolls, lenses, and essences alike to make the Underdark experience less ridiculous on other PCs. Sometimes even medkits, (though those often sell out within a single hour and the profit is ridiculously minimal.)

Appraise runs? I'm glad they're dealt with. But on other points? ...Wow, damn, now to make a profit, I have to screw over other players. Okay, great.

[iria_huntress]

Yes, Giles. That was one of the few problem I saw with that mechanic. And, if you read the original post, there would have been (with a bit more work) other ways to approach it that didn't risk breaking more builds than the number of people it stopped. I agree, bottomless money pits were definitely game breaking. But saying "!@#$ you" to all the people who want to actually RP being merchants (and spend more time in RP and slightly less time gathering materials to craft simple things that disappeared quickly, such as kits) just doesn't seem like a very good answer.

But, if two wrongs make a right, then yeah. Go ahead and remove the respawn option. Having characters who literally don't care about the risk of dying (and are not intimidated no matter how many times you stomp them into the ground) is just as game and immersion breaking. And it is a problem that persists among a larger percentage of the player population.

So you didn't answer my question, giles. You only pointed out something that the original author, myself, and everyone else has already said. So, how is this change going to add to the fun? I don't care what exploits it detracts from. There are alternative solutions that will harm a lot less, and still stop that particular issue. I want to know what it adds to the game that is so worth ruining a lot of concepts (and several epic characters who actually make a LOT of rp and plots).

Personally, I would rather deal with a few money pots, than see a lot of these actual merchant characters go.

[Durvayas]

I think the kneejerk reaction is unwarranted, given this update was stated up front to be one of a series intent on fixing the game economy. We may find this to be nescessary as an update to make the next updates work properly without a select few players churning out millions of gp and skewing the effects of the further changes by flooding a delicate market with gold.

I can only say wait and see. It can't possibly do more damage to the game economy than the imfamous 'gold-for-all-who-click-the-corpse' update from last year, which took many months to let bleed out and fix itself.

[Flameborn]

I'll answer how it makes things more fun.

Now as a merchant, you have to actually work to sell people things. And the things you sell them now have actual value.

Healing kit makers? Giant market

Ingot makers? Always gunna need that.

Atunement potions? Are back baby.

Skleens? Can't be bought en-mass now. Crafting them has meaning now...again.

Alchemists and Artists ALWAYS have an easy time making gold with essences and gems, this doesnt change their market much at all.

Hard to find a carpenter? Seems like a great time to learn carpentry.

Plus, theres a ton of new items coming into the matrix, and people are going to want new things. Get a rogue out there with you to pick some chests.


You're really blowing the RP portion away here, when I see this as a great opportunity to garner MORE rp then before. Now instead of just going to an NPC, buying 200 essences and filling a shop with them at double the price, you'll have to RP to get what you need as a merchant now, or at least it adds incentive.

Theres a ton of low levels around, pay them to gather resources for you to make stuff. BE A MERCHANT.

[gilescorey]

It adds to the game by removing appraise running - which is a big deal in and of itself, to me.

I also don't think that taking shops who only deal in reselling kits/essences/lenses out of the mix, or really just lowering their profit margin is exactly a bad thing, which is where I think you'll disagree.

To me, convenience does not equal fun, and for you it seems that it does, and I don't think it's possible to change anyone's idea of fun by using a late night not-at-all-proofread forum post.

[Iwanttobethegirlwiththemostcake]

I agree that the people doing appraise runs, buying NPC merchandise and selling to another NPC merchant was out of control. Personally, it always felt like cheating to me. I couldn't do it.

I have a shop in the Arcane Tower, high traffic spot. People requested I carry portal lenses in my shop. I hated every minute of making a run to Haulfest or Hinglo and buying lenses, clicking fifty times to get fifty lenses and running back to the shop, overloaded to restock.

I bought lenses for 1,750 and sold them for two thousand each. How many people can get lenses for two thousand each? Now do a little math. If you own a shop in a settlement with 10% tax, you make 50 gold per lense at that price. Not exactly getting rich. More like community service if you ask me. I can make wands, scrolls, and other goods with a better profit margin. And I don't have to run around collecting those lenses to resell.

The new prices are crazy. What is it, 32 gold each for a +1 healing kit? Raise scrolls are 1,113 gold? Lenses are now 3,500 gold. How is that going to play out for low level characters? Is hunting even going to be profitable anymore? As a mage and often times the group healer, I think not.

[Durvayas]

Is hunting even going to be profitable anymore? As a mage and often times the group healer, I think not.

I think its going to be more tactical now. People are going to need to slow down and think about the next encounter, and actively plan for how to take down the mobs in the most efficient manner possible.

Before now, for the most part it was melee charges, everyone else attacks from range; no real strategem involved. Click to kill.

Now I think -guard is going to become more important, things like called shot will be more useful, with more dedicated healers than just 'I'm a cleric who is a frontliner until someone needs a heal spell' Instead of charging, it may be more effective to use chokepoints now and let the enemy come to a defensively minded PC party over the classic barbarian horde style attacks of yesterday.

[Peppermint]

Sounds a lot like the UD economy since, well, forever. Don't get me wrong. That seems a bit high. But it's nothing new to half of the playerbase.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Mild problem with this is that I tend to rely on the appraise bought lenses/healing kits/temp essences being in player shops, when running a lower level character.

This change just made lowbie life a lot less affordable.

Seems like the incorrect method of fixing the npc vendor appraise running problem.

[Flameborn]

The new prices are crazy. What is it, 32 gold each for a +1 healing kit? Raise scrolls are 1,113 gold? Lenses are now 3,500 gold. How is that going to play out for low level characters? Is hunting even going to be profitable anymore? As a mage and often times the group healer, I think not.

Those are CHEAP compared to the UD prices.

435 gold for 10 +1 kits

lenses for 4,500.

Raise scrolls for 1,780.

Those are NORMAL UD prices for those items for people without appraise...which is most classes.

[susitsu]

I have a shop in the Arcane Tower, high traffic spot. People requested I carry portal lenses in my shop. I hated every minute of making a run to Haulfest or Hinglo and buying lenses, clicking fifty times to get fifty lenses and running back to the shop, overloaded to restock.

I bought lenses for 1,750 and sold them for two thousand each. How many people can get lenses for two thousand each? Now do a little math. If you own a shop in a settlement with 10% tax, you make 50 gold per lense at that price. Not exactly getting rich. More like community service if you ask me. I can make wands, scrolls, and other goods with a better profit margin. And I don't have to run around collecting those lenses to resell.

This, thank you. And I'll point out that this player is on the surface side, and struggles to make anything of a profit whilst providing for the playerbase and making their life less hell.

Appraise is a skill investment that is used by a large chunk of the community to act in service to it. That genuinely, it's kind of painful just to give people cheaper goods so that the leveling process doesn't make them want to kill them self. The Arelith leveling process is already ridiculous enough compared to any other server.

As suggested by Viper, if this is possible to code, it should just be made so that items bought from one NPC can't be sold to another. If this can be done, that would be wonderful. It still leaves quite a bit of effort in appraise shopping, patience, a greatly minimal profit on many points just so we can provide to the playerbase...and player interaction a chunk of the time. Ive had the stock of my shop brought up a million and one times to me in roleplay, and it caused me to 1. add negative essences at the same price as acid (at a LESSER PROFIT,) and 2. reach out for a business partner I felt I could dependably trust OOCly and ICly.

And let me point out, to get the essences the majority of the playerbase desires, you need to seek out a certain NPC with a certain amount of levels in certain classes. And for many UD players, doing so is like walking into a mine field and just waiting to get jumped by five elves.

Whereas at least an Outcast can talk their way through an unexpected encounter, and bring essences to the playerbase below and ensure they aren't just suffering through their levels.

[Peppermint]

There's an NPC in Andunor that sells +1d4 damage essences rather cheaply. This is only one damage less, on average, than those acquired from a certain "unexpected encounter". I feel it's a bit of an exaggeration to call this suffering.

[iria_huntress]

Yes. Let's invest 8 levels of skill points into a craft that only benefits my class with a SINGLE item. Great use of time! IF you don't have an RL job that is already just as tedious that you want to escape when you get home.

Have you tried keeping up with a healing kit demand? How many hundreds/thousands have you crafted and put into a shop in a week? Because the number is right up there. And gathering that many nuts, berries, fruit, meat, and salt is tedious. It is only fun to the grind oriented players (not RPers).

Attunement potions are back? Because a new NPC shop in Andunor sells them for less than 2k (when that merchant is present). Even I bought a crapload. If they remove the merchant, I'm selling them for a 300% profit, because all of you grinders seem quite pleased with the new ridiculous prices and greatly reduced spawn loot.

The ONLY people this seems to benefit are people with a LOT of time on their hands, as you have pointed out, Flameborn. Because every thing you listed takes a LOT more time than doing it yourself. Hire someone else? Takes for ever, and very unreliable. Doing it yourself? takes slightly less time, and more tedious.

1d6 Temporary essences? They are still only available to certain players. Their cost in shops is simply going to go up, because it can't be crafted. When it can be crafted (like all things alchemy) it will take more effort than it is worth.

I am not blowing the RP portion away. I'm being realistic, and trying to understand how this impacts the community.

NONE of that seems like a balanced trade off for breaking an entire mechanic, so far.

Personally, I don't care about the change in terms of how it affects me. I do care about how it affects the characters I RP with. Those merchants are the ones I bought from. Now they will never have enough inventory at a decent price.

Why would I get a rogue? With the return of old familiars, I'd MUCH rather have another mage with a pixie along (save for a few certain DC 60-80 locks), or just take a pixie on my next level. They add a lot more to a party than a rogue, and cost less to maintain because they don't require the use of expensive items (more expensive now) to be useful.

So most of this leaves things business as usual. This change didn't ADD any of that, Flameborn. That stuff was ALWAYS an option. If it was really THAT fun, wouldn't people already be doing it more regularly? Or maybe if they had so much time they could actually afford to do it, they would. So, once again. What does this "add" to rp? I'm not asking what it is forcing people to do that was already available. I'm asking what it adds that is fun for the majority of people it affects.

[Cortex]

Pay other people to bring you materials.

The attunement potion was increased to 10k ish.

There are 1d4 essences. Weaker? Yes, but they're accessible.

Also: More changes coming.

[Peppermint]

I don't think this is a casual vs. hardcore problem.

Like most players, I am employed. Additionally, I spend a lot of my free time doing dev work for Arelith. As a consequence, I don't actually play as much as many people here do. Those who know me can confirm that I play only some handful of hours every week.

My last couple of characters have been underdarkers, where the prices have historically been higher than they are now. This change was a net detriment to the surface, but actually a net boon to the other half of the playerbase. I could see an argument for it being toned down a little, sure, but arguing that it's "too high" to be playable is simply, provably wrong.

I've adventured, socialized, managed shops, and all of that on limited playtime in the most economically-starved portion of the server. Having fewer hours to spend doesn't preclude you from doing all those things other do. Frankly, it only necessitates spending your time more efficiently. If you don't have to time to do it all by yourself, then network. Get others involved. You don't even have to lead this yourself. Just find at least one other player that's willing to pick up the slack and coordinate people with you.

Ultimately, though, I don't think it was never purely about the roleplay. It's impossible to have a meaningful game where resources are virtually free.

Also, a funny bit of trivia: appraise routes have never been a thing at all in the underdark. That was a surface-only feature.

[IIllII]

I love this update. Maybe tweak the price of +1 healing kits just a little bit and it'll be perfect.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I don't know how to justify 10% of the playerbase owning a printing press and printing out money non-stop while the other 90% of the player base either didn't participate or didn't know.

I also don't know why people think the ability to magically conjour gold and put it into the player economy is a good idea that needs to be continued.

[Mr_Rieper]

I like it. Large strides towards a more balanced and interesting economy.

It may have been more convenient before, but new things will develop.

It's important to remember that even in a recession, somebody is making money.

[Rwby]

As a casual player, this makes me very excited.

It also makes me finally understand how all those shops kept stocking so many portal lenses. I wondered how anyone could possibly craft that many...

[Mr_Rieper]

I love this update. Maybe tweak the price of +1 healing kits just a little bit and it'll be perfect.

Potions are still cheap. It's one of the best ways to survive in the Underdark. Cure Moderate Wounds potions are cost effective, and MASSIVELY more so when made into bandages.

[miesny_jez]

I am looking forward to the effect of this change - really like it and I think its well deserved, looking at the amount of NPC-sold items all around the island shops was really disheartening, we may actually get back back to crafted items back in the shops.

Curious about this statement:

sale both of crafted and looted items from chests, weapon ranks, and lockers.

Does it mean that one of the plans is that we will now be able to sell crafted items to NPCs ? Well now... suddenly that Crafting Gift sounds more appealing then ever.

Just if this is in planning... please touch on the subject of crafting recipies and revamp of the crafting system.