Arelith

gilescorey wrote:As for dropped schools, if you want the cool vamp-imbues, drop enchantment, if you want group buffing capability with mass haste and protection from spells drop necromancy.

Just a note that imbues still work with prohibited schools. Either that, or I'm bugged. My necromancy-barred spellsword has still been able to imbue weapons using negative energy ray.

Commissar wrote:

gilescorey wrote:As for dropped schools, if you want the cool vamp-imbues, drop enchantment, if you want group buffing capability with mass haste and protection from spells drop necromancy.

Just a note that imbues still work with prohibited schools. Either that, or I'm bugged. My necromancy-barred spellsword has still been able to imbue weapons using negative energy ray.

..............
Really? If I had know this, I'd have been doing since a long time ago...

Commissar wrote:

gilescorey wrote:As for dropped schools, if you want the cool vamp-imbues, drop enchantment, if you want group buffing capability with mass haste and protection from spells drop necromancy.

Just a note that imbues still work with prohibited schools. Either that, or I'm bugged. My necromancy-barred spellsword has still been able to imbue weapons using negative energy ray.

Are you able to use greater negative spells, like enervation? Because this seems like a bug.

Double posting. Sorry about that.

For this build: https://pastebin.com/fNE72423

Why not take epic weapon focus instead of epic weapon spec at 20, then go auto-still spell for lv. 20 and 23 instead of taking the Great INT? Is that progression possible, or have I made a mistake there? If not, that's an easy jump of +6 AC (+4 Addy Full Plate, +2 Addy Tower Shield). Epic weapon spec is negligible with the ability to cast GWM + 2 imbues + 1 perma essence + 1 temp essence.

Alrighty. Just checked.

Negative energy ray, negative energy burst, and enervation all work to imbue weapons, even on a spellsword that's chosen necromancy as one of their barred schools. Vampiric touch doesn't. I don't have the levels to check any higher circle spells, at present, but it looks like it works.

This may or may not be intended.

I've thrown up a bug report, on the chance it's not.

https://pastebin.com/JA43JHP8

For the above build I want a katana for it instead of a rapier.
What would be the best way to do so. RIght now I am playing this build and it's level 4 so I can still go every way.

That said would a katana be better or worse in the long run then a rapier?

Katana is worse than the rapier. You don't have a whole lot of general feats to spare as a spellsword; and you have to have a spare hand anyway to get your AC bonus (negating the only real versatility you get from katanas - their suitability for dual wielding as tiny weapons [even then, there are better alternatives]).

As it stands, you'll just be using a tiny weapon with a smaller crit range and a slightly higher base damage (which, by the time you get to double imbues isn't really going to count for much anyway - and will likely be eclipsed by those extra crits the rapier will be getting. Particularly since the rapier user will get improved critical, which you won't have space for if you're taking the exotic proficiency for katanas.). This'll make you very easy to disarm, if you run across someone who wants to try it. It's really not worth trading away a feat for, mechanically.

However.

None of those things make the build unplayable. You can do it. If I were to, I'd be inclined to take your exotic proficiency at level 6 and shuffle all your general feats up to the next available slot. You'll lose out on the choice of feats at level 18, but that's just the way it goes.

One more question.
At level 18 you get [Imp. Knockdown, Craft Wand, Toughness or Imp. Critical] to chose from.

What would be the better option, Craft wand I dont see much use for, toughness adds some HP so that is neat, Imp crit is always good for added dammage from the rapier. And Imp Knockdown, I dont see this build attempting to knowdown dragons.

My pick would be improved critical, for the damage. Health is wonderful, but we're dex based in this build. If life's going well; hopefully we won't be being hit frequently enough for it to be a dealbreaker.

That said, craft wand is a close second. It's always useful for mages; and it's handy for spellswords to have a few wands tucked away so you can change imbues on the fly (that, and knock wands. Those things are a godsend for opening chests). Improved knockdown, I'd leave alone. Our AB isn't high enough that it's likely to let us knock down anything we weren't going to get anyway.

liver and bones wrote:For this build: https://pastebin.com/fNE72423

Why not take epic weapon focus instead of epic weapon spec at 20, then go auto-still spell for lv. 20 and 23 instead of taking the Great INT? Is that progression possible, or have I made a mistake there? If not, that's an easy jump of +6 AC (+4 Addy Full Plate, +2 Addy Tower Shield). Epic weapon spec is negligible with the ability to cast GWM + 2 imbues + 1 perma essence + 1 temp essence.

You can drop epic weapon spec and go for Auto-Still that way. But you're overstating the AC gain. You do get +2 from using an Addy Tower shield, but using Full Plate only nets +3. Epic Mage Armor includes armor AC, and in this case an Adamantine Full Plate would net you no more AC than an unenchanted Full Plate. The difference would be breastplate versus full plate.

Note that default build would still get you GMW + 2 imbues + essences, and the +4 from EWS. You are indeed giving up a chunk of on-hit damage.

Also note that you wouldn't be able to cast level 9 spells without at least 1 Great INT on that build. You can use a level-up to bump your INT to 19, but that'll leave you with less AB/dmg from one less STR.

In short, going that road gets you a little more AC, but drops damage. You will also either lose 9th circle spellcasting or AB/dmg. And either way, you'll lose a spell slot or two. It's certainly an option, if you feel that's a good tradeoff.

yellowcateyes wrote:

liver and bones wrote:For this build: https://pastebin.com/fNE72423

Why not take epic weapon focus instead of epic weapon spec at 20, then go auto-still spell for lv. 20 and 23 instead of taking the Great INT? Is that progression possible, or have I made a mistake there? If not, that's an easy jump of +6 AC (+4 Addy Full Plate, +2 Addy Tower Shield). Epic weapon spec is negligible with the ability to cast GWM + 2 imbues + 1 perma essence + 1 temp essence.

You can drop epic weapon spec and go for Auto-Still that way. But you're overstating the AC gain. You do get +2 from using an Addy Tower shield, but using Full Plate only nets +3. Epic Mage Armor includes armor AC, and in this case an Adamantine Full Plate would net you no more AC than an unenchanted Full Plate. The difference would be breastplate versus full plate.

Note that default build would still get you GMW + 2 imbues + essences, and the +4 from EWS. You are indeed giving up a chunk of on-hit damage.

Also note that you wouldn't be able to cast level 9 spells without at least 1 Great INT on that build. You can use a level-up to bump your INT to 19, but that'll leave you with less AB/dmg from one less STR.

In short, going that road gets you a little more AC, but drops damage. You will also either lose 9th circle spellcasting or AB/dmg. And either way, you'll lose a spell slot or two. It's certainly an option, if you feel that's a good tradeoff.

What of taking EWS still, but cutting our armor skin for the last auto still spell? You're still getting an additional +3AC without sacrificing damage, aside from the +1 STR mod you'll give up by changing two STR additions to INT.

If you think it's worth trading 1 AB and 1 dmg on a Spellsword for +3 AC, go for it. The listed builds are only templates/suggestions, so do what you think is the best fit for your character.

I haven't seen monk being mentioned, for example as an alternative to rogue in a dex-based, spellsword 23 / fighter 4 / monk 3 build. By dropping UMD, 2d6 sneak attack and a few skill points, you would gain wisdom AC, deflect arrows for offhand (main hand using rapier), still mind and monk speed for use with expeditious retreat stacking and mass haste for super speedy hit and run tactics.

If you wanted to go even crazier MAD, you could take Harper Paragon as well instead of fighter (spellsword 22 / HP 5 / monk 3), substituting weapon specialization for divine grace, might and shield, which you don't even need 13+ strength to take as they come free, stats looking something like this: 8/16/14/16/14/14 (with gifts). As a minor benefit, monk with wisdom synergizes with paragon's detect evil.

Instead of having bonus damage all day long, you'd get bonus saves all day long along with burst damage, AC and overall 30 caster level against dispels (32 if combined with arcane defense). You'd be plenty feat starved though.

Or drop monk and take both paragon and fighter, and/or switch spellsword to bard, as that wouldn't be as MAD. Plenty of choices to be had.

Monk is good, I play a 23/4/3 spellsword/monk/fighter (don't ask about why not 23/3/4.
Good a.c. loses a point or two ab due to starting with WiS 14 and build but makes up for it in other ways.

This might be just me but reading over all the build I see a +2 only with GMW, but isn't it suppose to give +5?

Ozzy.nl wrote:This might be just me but reading over all the build I see a +2 only with GMW, but isn't it suppose to give +5?

The baseline stats are for a +3 weapon. So a GMW is a +2 improvement when it's being used.

Lurch wrote:I haven't seen monk being mentioned, for example as an alternative to rogue in a dex-based, spellsword 23 / fighter 4 / monk 3 build.

Feel free to post builds! The ones listed near the beginning of the thread were some samples/templates for people uncertain how to approach the class. They're not meant to be a comprehensive list.

Just a note: I'm fairly certain most of these builds can't get ESF Discipline at the point you have it listed. It requires 20 ranks, but you've got it listed several times before the final fighter level is taken. Maybe I missed something, but you'd need to somehow fit it in afterward if my figuring is correct.

Edit: Also just noticed that for the 23 SS/ 4 F/ 3 R Dex build you can actually start with slightly better stats with a small adjustment. Starting Dex at 16(+2) gives you three more points, two of which can bring Int to 16(+2) as well. Then just switch one of the int bumps to dex and keep the Great Int feat, and you end up with the same ending stats, but with 1 more point to toss into strength to even it to 12.

I'll doublecheck things in the morning. The builds have been rejiggered a few times to respond to class changes, so it's entirely possible that an ESF requirement was overlooked. If the stat change results in a better starting spread, I'll adjust it accordingly.

yellowcateyes wrote:

Ozzy.nl wrote:This might be just me but reading over all the build I see a +2 only with GMW, but isn't it suppose to give +5?

The baseline stats are for a +3 weapon. So a GMW is a +2 improvement when it's being used.

Lurch wrote:I haven't seen monk being mentioned, for example as an alternative to rogue in a dex-based, spellsword 23 / fighter 4 / monk 3 build.

Feel free to post builds! The ones listed near the beginning of the thread were some samples/templates for people uncertain how to approach the class. They're not meant to be a comprehensive list.

Feel free to post builds? Why not... I will post mine or what i have planned for my currently level 15 Beldin, any suggestions/comments appreciated.

DWARF - Why dwarf? Humans are boring. When I play a human and someone greets me i say "hi". When I play a dwarf and someone greets me i say "oi der"...much better... Screw your extra feat and skills!
(gift of +2 str, thats it. i didn't want more than +1 ECL)
Starting stats with 1 gift: Str 19, Con 16, Int 16, Dex 8, Cha 6, Wis 8
End base stats: Str 24, Int 20, Con 16, Dex 8, Cha 6, Wis 8

24 wiz / 3 ftr / 3 bard

1: W(1) – expertise
2: W(2)
3: W(3) – imp expertise
4: W(4) - { + STR }
5: W(5) – Bonus Wizard: extend spell
6: W(6) – blind fight
7: W(7)
8: W(8) - { + INT}
9: W(9) – knockdown
10: W(10) - Bonus Wizard: empower spell
11: W(11)
12: W(12) – spell focus abjuration { + INT }
13: W(13)
14: W(14)
15: W(15) – impknockdown, Bonus Wizard: arcane def abjuration
16: W(16) - { + INT }
17: W(17)
18: W(18) – (undecided feat could be: weapon focus, exotic wpn prof, spell penetration, spell focus...)
19: F(1) – weapon focus (or weapon specialization if i take wpn focus at lvl 18)
20: F(2) – improved critical, { + STR }
21: F(3) – great str
22: W(19)
23: W(20) - Bonus Wizard: great int
24: W(21) – epic skill focus disc, { + STR },
25: W(22)
26: W(23) - Bonus Wizard: epic mage armor
27: W(24) – armor skin
28: B or R(1) - { + STR }
29: B or R(2)
30: B or R(3) – epic weapon focus

19: F(1) – weapon focus (or weapon specialization if i take wpn focus at lvl 18)

You can't take WS until your fourth fighter level.

For the 23/4/3 build, I found myself incapable of taking improved crit on the level suggested (I think it's 9?), which seems normal bc 6 wizard + 3 fighter is only +6 BAB where you need +8 BAB for imp. crit.

My concern is maybe I'm looking at this wrong. Was this just a mistake, or is there something I'm missing?

liver and bones wrote:For the 23/4/3 build, I found myself incapable of taking improved crit on the level suggested (I think it's 9?), which seems normal bc 6 wizard + 3 fighter is only +6 BAB where you need +8 BAB for imp. crit.

My concern is maybe I'm looking at this wrong. Was this just a mistake, or is there something I'm missing?

Yep, it's not an option at that level. You can carry on with the build as planned by swapping it either with the level 15 or level 18 feats.

On a related note, I've gone back and edited the builds for recent corrections. In particular, the DEX builds had their starting attributes tweaked for a slightly better stat layout, as pointed out above.

*le sigh* i was following the old build stat layout now i am lost

Ozzy.nl wrote:*le sigh* i was following the old build stat layout now i am lost

Practically, nothing's changed except one of the early stat level-ups are in DEX instead of INT. If you're past the early levels, you won't notice a difference.

Anyone play 22 Spellsword, 5 PDK, 3 Paladin/Blackguard Build with maximized int and High Cha?

At first glance it looks like a fun wizard build that double the intelligence melee damage bonus and adds divine might damage/shield AC with High saves to boot.

Do memes kids. You know you want to.