Arelith

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:05 am**

I don't think it's as simple a matter as "Team Good vs Evil". For example, we CURRENTLY have a notoriously evil faction allied with an obviously good one. I’ve personally seen Lawful Evil players fighting alongside Chaotic Good.

I agree with Twily when he posits that it's mainly “Cheesy PvP tactics, borderline-metagaming RP to 'out' people.”

I honestly think the server is more cliquey than what folks are willing to admit which results in a sort of Hive-mind. These groups are led by well established players with clout. When folks go against the grain, it often results in mass PKing which is basically exile when their reach extends across multiple settlements.

So, in my opinion, its more complicated than than just "Good vs. Evil". It's a systemic problem where players who have put in the time and effort to become faction leaders choose not to practice adult behavior. All they really want to do is "win" with no regard for other players.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:30 am**

One small point.

If you do see someone metagaming or abusing any alignment detecting mechanics (I'm thinking mostly the Myon mythal here, but other things too) then please do report it.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:16 am**

I would love an evil settlement on the surface... Maybe then half the humans in the game wouldn't be in the Underdark.

Now if only we started treating slaves as *slaves*, things would improve!

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:21 am**

Why not turn an existing settlement into "evil" (I Place evil in quotation marks, I think "evil settlement" is a mislabel, rather, evil led settlement would be the more accurate wording.)

It takes effort, but that's how it took for every settlement in the past. At one point years ago people were complaining in the inverse. It's just one of those phases where it will take work to shift the momentum again, IMO.

Personally, I strongly believe this needs to be a player led effort. There are settlements that exist where you can take over with the great evil group you form and the alliances you shake up. I've not seen very many attempts at it.

Also by its nature evil tends to be more reclusive, not every sort of evil person is meant to operate openly within civilized buildings.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:36 am**

-XXX- wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:57 pm I don't feel like all exposed villains should belong to Andunor. Characters living in the Underdark should be in the Underdark because they are Underdarkers and not because they ended up there when all other surface towns closed the gates for them virtually overnight as a result of IG events, and have nowhere else to go.

I think that the mechanical designation "outcast" is a little misleading here too. Unless failed villains are supposed to get shipped into Andunor by design, which I don't think was the DEV team's intention... unless I'm mistaken and one of them corrects me here ofc.

Not saying that /all/ exposed villains should move to Andunor, but it should be an option. It is just that currently moving there without being able to use the portal is rather painful.

Insisting that Andunor is only for underdark races is rather too late now. But there are other threads that have discuss that quite a lot.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:23 am**

DM Titania wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:21 am Why not turn an existing settlement into "evil" (I Place evil in quotation marks, I think "evil settlement" is a mislabel, rather, evil led settlement would be the more accurate wording.)

It takes effort, but that's how it took for every settlement in the past. At one point years ago people were complaining in the inverse. It's just one of those phases where it will take work to shift the momentum again, IMO.

Personally, I strongly believe this needs to be a player led effort. There are settlements that exist where you can take over with the great evil group you form and the alliances you shake up. I've not seen very many attempts at it.

Also by its nature evil tends to be more reclusive, not every sort of evil person is meant to operate openly within civilized buildings.

Unless you are actually advocating for people to roll a large faction of pre-designed characters, rolling into cordor or guldorand, and siezing power by violently ejecting the local government (and somehow not getting mobbed by a coalition of all the other settlements combined), this is not something that is feasible. There simply isn't enough surface evil left to mount this kind of power grab.

And if people generate characters to do exactly this, the DM reports from angry surface players would stack so high as to touch heaven.

Wharftown was able to be siezed by evil explicitely because it was out of the way, it was small, and it wasn't possible to get a small army of lowbies to vote and exile the powers that be because you needed to be level 12 or so to reliably reach it. It was zealously defended via PvP, and we all remember how that worked out.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:37 am**

Durvayas wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 11:23 am Wharftown was able to be siezed by evil explicitely because it was out of the way, it was small, and it wasn't possible to get a small army of lowbies to vote and exile the powers that be because you needed to be level 12 or so to reliably reach it. It was zealously defended via PvP, and we all remember how that worked out.

You are misremembering wharftown.

You could walk there from cordor at lvl 6, or spend a total of 100 gp on two ferry rides from cordor.

It was not out of the way nor difficult to get an army of lowbies to vote. Wharftown was popular because it was easy to reach, not the opposite.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:39 pm**

Shoutout to all the old boys in the room who remember when there were Basilisks on the road to Wharftown. <3

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:58 pm**

Not to echo DM Titania, but I completely agree. Wharftown being destroyed due to pvp shenanigans sucked, but it is what it is. Irongron has no intention of bringing it back from what I understand, so there's only moving forward. I really think taking over a settlement is the best way to go about something like this. Nowhere is "safe" aside from probably Myon (and even then not really) and the Orc Camp. You could gather allies and take over, or take a page from the orc/horc handbook and make your own settlement in the middle of nowhere with tents and all that jazz. Build a settlement and maybe the devs will grace you with a building or two. That's how the orc camp got started and...I think it's Greyhawk? I think that's the name? The settlement with housing and stuff no one really visits anymore. Actually, that's a great place to set up evil camp since it's out of the way and there's something there worth hoarding (Legend of Zelda's 'You Found a Secret' chimes). I believe it's neutral land, but I'm not 100% sure so don't quote me on that.

tl;dr if you build it, they will come

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:01 pm**

Phaesporia wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:58 pm Nowhere is "safe" aside from probably Myon (and even then not really) and the Orc Camp. You could gather allies and take over, or take a page from the orc/horc handbook and make your own settlement in the middle of nowhere with tents and all that jazz. Build a settlement and maybe the devs will grace you with a building or two. That's how the orc camp got started and...

The Orc Camp happened because Irongron wanted it to--he wanted a half-orc "area" for a while, and Mudagog gave him the excuse he needed. DMs and devs alike will strongly discourage you from constructing your own settlement and giving them work.

Phaesporia wrote:I think it's Greyhawk?

"Greyhammer" is the four-building town between Bendir and Wharftown. "Greyhawk" was to Gygax what the Forgotten Realms is to Greenwood.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:02 pm**

Chair wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:39 pm Shoutout to all the old boys in the room who remember when there were Basilisks on the road to Wharftown. <3

*shudder*

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:14 pm**

MoreThanThree wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:01 pm
The Orc Camp happened because Irongron wanted it to--he wanted a half-orc "area" for a while, and Mudagog gave him the excuse he needed. DMs and devs alike will strongly discourage you from constructing your own settlement and giving them work.

Why would they do that? Wouldn't it be better to encourage new settlements considering it brings the server together, promotes roleplay, and changes the server to accommodate a growing population (hence the neutral settlements they've been adding recently anyways). Instead of just shoving new settlements in without warning, it'd be cooler to do it with a group that has brought change to the server with roleplay and interactions. Why would they discourage you from bringing change? Then the server would be stagnant with the same settlements and factions for years, never changing or taking players actions into account. Change is good and healthy, especially for a growing server and doubly for a server that seems to advertise that you, as a player, can make an impact.

MoreThanThree wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:01 pm "Greyhammer" is the four-building town between Bendir and Wharftown. "Greyhawk" was to Gygax what the Forgotten Realms is to Greenwood.

I knew it was grey something, thanks!

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:04 pm**

Phaesporia wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:14 pm Why would they do that?

They've always been resistant to people banding together and trying to create their own new settlement. This was actually experienced by the Orc Camp in their original iteration: they wanted to rebuild Wharftown, and the DMs sent event after event to discourage them. An enterprising libertarian once famously tried to turn a bridge between the Arcane Tower and Cordor into his own little micronation, which was met with DM resistance.

This all boils down to the developers having their own agenda and timetable for settlement creation. If PCs try to give devs work by creating their own settlements via tent cities, the DMs will corpsebash the tents and rush the PCs with monsters in such a frequency that the PCs won't be able to RP fullstop. You can see a DM admitting the validity of my point in this very thread:

DM Titania wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:21 am Why not turn an existing settlement into "evil"

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:06 pm**

Marsi wrote: Mon Feb 18, 2019 11:03 pm Not all factions find success, with thieves guilds being perhaps the most attempted and most given up on. An isle-wide syndicate is an enormous undertaking and I don't think it's fair to suggest Arelith is an action server or make generalizations about the player base because you were unable to accomplish that goal. In the free creative market of the server you have to compete for attention with other players, but if you, in your words, had trouble competing with the plain mechanics of the server, that says more to me about your ability in drumming up attention than the value system of the players.

You are assuming the points I raised in my first post are based entirely on the specific example given which they are not, rather they come from two years of playing evil or evil leaning neutral characters as I rather enjoy the antagonist role. From my experiences I have noticed that the server motto of "what you see is what you get" typically rings true which means its opposite "out of sight, out of mind" also occurs, that is to say you only notice evil when someone is doing it. The trouble is that evil characters, as stated in Budii's original observation, are effectively marked once they begin acting their alignment and their reputation is used to attack them regardless of their current doings.
Funnily enough a surprising similiar thing happened with the pirate tattoo not too long ago where a literal mark was placed upon every character who took up the pirate life. This lead to pirate characters being attacked purely because of this mark, a situation which the team altered from being a constant mark to one that had a higher chance of being spotted the greater the rank you obtained, so a precident has been set.

This effectively makes everyone act either neutral or good until most of the conveniences of the surface have either been used up or replaced, typically until level 20 because doing it any other way is just shooting yourself in the foot for no reason. Other characters don't know what level you're at when they see you perform an evil deed so why not wait until it is optimal? An ironic theme, no?
However due to this most evil characters set up on either Sibiyad, Sencliff, Bane's Hold or Andunor and typically only come to the other settlements in the form of raids, there are those who remain within the settlements but do so by only being evil when no one can see them and thus do not contribute to the "what you see is what you get" ethos making the surface appear neutral to good.

So it all boils down to a question, do you prefer the current system where evil is only seen when its doing something or a more constant, noticeable though low-lying evil?

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:57 pm**

MoreThanThree wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:04 pm
Phaesporia wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:14 pm Why would they do that?
They've always been resistant to people banding together and trying to create their own new settlement. This was actually experienced by the Orc Camp in their original iteration: they wanted to rebuild Wharftown, and the DMs sent event after event to discourage them. An enterprising libertarian once famously tried to turn a bridge between the Arcane Tower and Cordor into his own little micronation, which was met with DM resistance.

This all boils down to the developers having their own agenda and timetable for settlement creation. If PCs try to give devs work by creating their own settlements via tent cities, the DMs will corpsebash the tents and rush the PCs with monsters in such a frequency that the PCs won't be able to RP fullstop. You can see a DM admitting the validity of my point in this very thread:
DM Titania wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:21 am Why not turn an existing settlement into "evil"

Wow. That's a harsh way of putting it... but in essence it has truth.

As Dms we have absolutly no control over perminent changes (like new settlments) to the server. The question of whether new settlments exist is down to the Devs and area Creators. They have a few things to balence up in the grand scheme such as:

1) What does the settlment bring to the server? Does it make sense from a design perspective? Does it bring in services that the Players/Characters need right now? Will it add more Story to the server? Ect. They look at the 'Bigger Picture' than we might, and often from a different angle too.
I personally agree that a new settlment might be nice, but on the other hand there is an argument that it's good to keep players conglomerated into thee or four areas, rather than five or six, and to keep an amount of competition for resources, which in turn creates conflict rp.

2) Do the Devs have time on their hands to make said settlment? Devs don't really work to a solid time table. Let's say you guys work on making a settlment, with the full expectation of getting said settlment. But then something like the Lag Crisis hits. All your efforts to make said settlment end up being put on hold for a long time whilst the Devs try and fix that. And then maybe the head Dev gets sick with the flue, or a family member of theirs dies, or they go on holiday. Or they just loose interest! And mean time the people working on your expected 'settlment' loose interest too. They come up with new concepts, new ideas, they don't want to make Grimsville any more. Devs, and players, are all volunteers. Putting on expectations that they'll make massive (and making a settlment is as huge as you can get) projects every few months is a big Ask when there's lots of other things they can, and might rather, be working on.

3) To an extent there'll always be accusations of Bias, but when doing some sort of mega project like this, I think people have to be even more careful. To turn up to a faction and go 'Wow, you're awsome, we're giving you your own SETTLMENT is a massive, huge, awe inspiring offer. And it would encourage others to do the same, which would in turn mean others will be dissapointed. Now this isn't a reason for it never to happen - hells it has happened in a way! But it's definatly something to keep in mind - that these sort of things are, and perhaps should be, very rare and expectations for it should be kept super low. I mean, if you want to try making a 'faction hub' out in the wilderness, then that's fine. But I'd definatly do it for the rp that comes out of the player side of making that hub, rather than the expectation that you'll get a grand settlement out of it later.

Also, lots of random 'construction' fixtures just dropped in the middle of nowhere without rhyme or reason tends to look really, really, really ugly. Less is more folks.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:58 pm**

As someone who has played a Paladin on the Surface that even went into Cordorian Politics; I can verify that the surface has reached a narrative dead-end. However, evil is very much alive. It is just simply being perpetuated by the people who argue they are fighting evil. I will use a simple, recent example to demonstrate this point.

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The most jarring example in recent memory was a case of meta-gaming. A Shadow Mage can Hide in Plain Sight. Right? So this person, who clearly demonstrates to be some kind of mage, shows off this hide in plain sight trick. Then this other person, quite suddenly, expertly deduced that the character was a Worshiper of Shar.

Think about that for a moment. The entire argument was 'This Wizard's Vanishing Act is undoubtedly the work of evil.' And the only reasoning behind it boiled down to what they knew about the in-game mechanics.

The mage goes so far as to pretend to cast an evocation, using the shadow-conjuration line of spells. Simply to try and convince them otherwise. However apparently the zealot would have none of it. Sporting scholastic amounts of knowledge about both the Arcane and associated Theology to point out that they were using a 9th level illusion spell 'and' that their magic is undoubtedly from the Shadow Weave. And that the only way to access this weave is through active occult activities performed for Shar.
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So. Besides the flagrant meta-gaming. . .The above example shows us how a Good Aligned 'hero' calling for an imprisonment or murder. Based on a dubious magic trick, rather than any actual actions one may deem as evil. Leading to my point:

Too many people don't actually know how to RP a Good Alignment. While trying to play the hero.

The road to hell is paved in good intentions. It seems many people in this day an age have become so inept with basic ethics that they do not see that an overzealous Tyr is essentially the same as Bane. This same attitude is what separates the Celestial from the Baatezu perspective on the Blood War. What this person in the example was actually playing is Lawful Evil, by any observable metric. But did they even realize this? No. And that's what drains the fun out of it. They are not making a story 'with' you, they are playing a game 'against' you, on an OOC level. It just degenerates the RP.

You are not going to get compelling rivalries with antagonists, if you're not actually being protagonists.

Years upon years, and we reach a point where surface politics has become a Cold War between grudging settlements incapable of any tangible diplomacy. Simply opening dialogue with your enemies is regarded as treasonous. Goodly characters are slandering other Goodly characters for not being Goodly enough. The surface constantly sends spies down to Andunor hoping to find some kind of juicy evil plot against the surface, but at this point the majority of people down there even want to, so you're not finding anything besides dead spies. It reaches a point where Andunor is looking more understanding, reasonable, ambiguous, tolerant, neighborly and safe for the average individual, than the surface does.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:53 pm**

Huelander wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:58 pm
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The most jarring example in recent memory was a case of meta-gaming. A Shadow Mage can Hide in Plain Sight. Right? So this person, who clearly demonstrates to be some kind of mage, shows off this hide in plain sight trick. Then this other person, quite suddenly, expertly deduced that the character was a Worshiper of Shar.

Think about that for a moment. The entire argument was 'This Wizard's Vanishing Act is undoubtedly the work of evil.' And the only reasoning behind it boiled down to what they knew about the in-game mechanics.

The mage goes so far as to pretend to cast an evocation, using the shadow-conjuration line of spells. Simply to try and convince them otherwise. However apparently the zealot would have none of it. Sporting scholastic amounts of knowledge about both the Arcane and associated Theology to point out that they were using a 9th level illusion spell 'and' that their magic is undoubtedly from the Shadow Weave. And that the only way to access this weave is through active occult activities performed for Shar.
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Another example of these in-game mechanics would be people speaking celestial to every cleric they meet in an attempt to discern if they are good. It was an incredibly awkward moment for my character who had convinced many of his good intentions and forever changed how others perceived him.

As an aside, I've always found the idea of the free languages based on alignment a bit odd. Surely it should be based on diety or intelligence score? Surely a LG and LN cleric of the same god shouldn't have had such a vastly different education?

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:01 pm**

micspam wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:53 pm As an aside, I've always found the idea of the free languages based on alignment a bit odd. Surely it should be based on diety or intelligence score? Surely a LG and LN cleric of the same god shouldn't have had such a vastly different education?

Give me free draconic for following Tiamat and Bahamut please.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:04 pm**

I wouldn't say that there's a need for more settlements, though I'd suggest that the Surface would only benefit from an Underdark style facelift.

If a questionable use of a mechanical aspect of the game (Read: poor PvP) is being presented as the main reason for the removal of Wharftown, why is it OK to keep towns where another mechanic is being used to similar effct?

If stale and repetitive RP is being presented as the main reason for the removal of Light Keep, why is it no longer such a major concern with regards to other settlements?

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:22 pm**

There is a clear need for a surface settlement that caters to Neutral/Evil in the way that Wharftown once did.

I know half a dozen warlocks who have been exiled for reasons as stupid as "having glowing eyes and then failing a will save" down to my own characters banishment for killing her husband at their wedding altar.

Now, the only place I can even walk around without the threat of constant PvP is Andunor. Not any of the surface settlements (Sencliff isn't a settlement, and I'm not into pirate rp), not Sibayad, not the Arcane Tower.

In fact, on the rare occasion that I try and go do literally anything on the surface, I'm swarmed by half a dozen level 30s who corpsebash me.

A place like Wharftown where Team Good doesnt have carte blanche to oneline corpsebash everyone in their Big Book of Evil would be swell.

On an OOC level I feel the number of outcasts crowds the monster races in the UD, and if there was more than 1/8 places where scummy PCs could exist without the constant threat of PvP and Death debuffs I'm sure it would make the UD feel more like it used to instead of a weird mix of Humans and Monsters fighting for space to not get murdered 24/7 while trying to just level.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:05 pm**

Alyxnia wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:22 pm
Now, the only place I can even walk around without the threat of constant PvP is Andunor. Not any of the surface settlements (Sencliff isn't a settlement, and I'm not into pirate rp), not Sibayad, not the Arcane Tower.

I hate to be the butt, but the Arcane Tower is not a settlement... Believe me we've had that discussion time and time again...

I guess to really add something to this thread? I'm more with Huelander, people are just.. waay to overzealous to the point it becomes predictable, and really hard to really /do/ anything, and it's just exhausting... And This is someone that plays a very clear Chaotic Good character.

I cannot tell you the number of times we've had people bust into the tower and go "Omg you allow the teaching of the necromancy school!? YOU ARE EVIL AN THUS SHALL DIE!" or "Your not doing the things MY way thus your evil!!" It.. it gets old... (and keep in mind these kinda comedic dramatizations of these situations to avoid outing anyone, and for my own sanity)

I unfortunately don't really know how to remedy it, since it's clearly the "I need to win" / "I'm always right." / "Them not wanting to write with others, but themselves" attitudes, which is not something easily changed.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:14 pm**

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mintarn

The island of Mintarn lay 400 miles (640km) southwest of Waterdeep, in the Sea of Swords.

Mintarn was a popular safe haven for those fleeing the authorities as well as neutral ground for conflicting parties to come to accord. This beautiful island asked no questions and turned no one away.

I know the devs are busy with their big Guldorand/Myon overhaul, but I really think the server could benefit from a place that serves a similar function. For whatever reasons, Wharftown will never be rebuilt, but the need for a place for people who aren't on good terms with the roving bands of level 30 paladins still remains.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:06 pm**

Alyxnia wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:14 pm https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mintarn

The island of Mintarn lay 400 miles (640km) southwest of Waterdeep, in the Sea of Swords.

Mintarn was a popular safe haven for those fleeing the authorities as well as neutral ground for conflicting parties to come to accord. This beautiful island asked no questions and turned no one away.
I know the devs are busy with their big Guldorand/Myon overhaul, but I really think the server could benefit from a place that serves a similar function. For whatever reasons, Wharftown will never be rebuilt, but the need for a place for people who aren't on good terms with the roving bands of level 30 paladins still remains.

its called sencliff

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:07 pm**

Ebonstar wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:06 pm
Alyxnia wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:14 pm https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mintarn

neutral ground for conflicting parties to come to accord
its called sencliff
Mmm, no. I'm also specifically talking about a settlement.

Posted: **Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:10 pm**

Alyxnia wrote: Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:22 pm There is a clear need for a surface settlement that caters to Neutral/Evil in the way that Wharftown once did.

I know half a dozen warlocks who have been exiled for reasons as stupid as "having glowing eyes and then failing a will save" down to my own characters banishment for killing her husband at their wedding altar.

Now, the only place I can even walk around without the threat of constant PvP is Andunor. Not any of the surface settlements (Sencliff isn't a settlement, and I'm not into pirate rp), not Sibayad, not the Arcane Tower.

In fact, on the rare occasion that I try and go do literally anything on the surface, I'm swarmed by half a dozen level 30s who corpsebash me.

A place like Wharftown where Team Good doesnt have carte blanche to oneline corpsebash everyone in their Big Book of Evil would be swell.

On an OOC level I feel the number of outcasts crowds the monster races in the UD, and if there was more than 1/8 places where scummy PCs could exist without the constant threat of PvP and Death debuffs I'm sure it would make the UD feel more like it used to instead of a weird mix of Humans and Monsters fighting for space to not get murdered 24/7 while trying to just level.

not for nothing, you did kill your groom at the altar, in front of so many witnesses it was nuts. To think you wouldnt be kill on sight after such is laughable. Actions have consequence, especially ones done in plain view

Arelith

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