Arelith

I've also become worried about increassed feelings of elitism and playing favorites OOC.

Like you're not "allowed" to act or question against certain characters/factions/settlements no matter what or else you're worse than baby eating drow.

Szaren wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:22 pm A polite snip

Thank you for a detailed reply. That's some really interesting stuff and I sent you a PM about perhaps continuing that conversation in another manner.

For the immediate purpose of this thread, however, I think there is a very slight underestimation of our collective ability to moderate our behaviour. On a very fundamental level, I sorta think you're making a sense of retributive justice somehow innate and absolute, when it is (arguably) conditioned and ideological - and thus something we can consciously, socially, change.

Szaren wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:12 pm

RandomhouseAudio wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:59 pm People need to remember IC does not mean OOC. Hate the character, sure. But remember that its an act (or it should be) and while part of me was happy I was hated ICly as it meant I did a good job? The amount of BS made it not worth the trouble any more.

I think if people remember its a game it would help.

I, personally, have seen many instances where players either cannot or actively choose not to differentiate between the two. And I think that this is in part due to the fact, that this RP-server encourages (as it should) deep personal and social RP - where the players pour a lot of time and emotions into their characters narratives. And when someone comes along and disrupts this (as they should be able to, as long as it is not detrimental behaviour), for example an angry drow man with a chip on his shoulder, this has a much greater impact on the person behind the character than say someone engaging in PVP in a game like world of warcraft or something similar. The problem is, that not everyone reacts the same way. Some players get really upset and sad that their character had to go through such an experience, where as someone else might shrug it off and continue on their way.

In the same set of ideas though, it isn't healthy to be so invested in a place of collective storytelling where if your narrative you have set out is disrupted it causes such an OOC hatred.

Again if somebody is just there to be disruptive by trying to cause greif that is different. But violent and disruptive characters are necessary. It forces people to respond. It drives change if its done well. Yes. It moves us in a direction we don't expect but that is the point of an interactive cooperative roleplaying experience.

If you are only here to tell your story as you want to tell it and any derivative of your plan isn't acceptable: You should be writing a book. Can it suck to lose? Yes. But can that also create narrative if done well? Absolutely.

Also a lot of the people who got very mad at my character were those that had their character pick a fight, be belittleing and disrespectful ICly, not respond to his ask they stop, and then get very very mad when the man who said "If you continue to be disrespectful I am going to kill you" followed up on his word.

If you don't give the angry man with a sword a reason to want to use it, they probably won't be going around smacking you with it unless they are just kinda toxic

RandomhouseAudio wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:28 pm

Szaren wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:12 pm

RandomhouseAudio wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 12:59 pm People need to remember IC does not mean OOC. Hate the character, sure. But remember that its an act (or it should be) and while part of me was happy I was hated ICly as it meant I did a good job? The amount of BS made it not worth the trouble any more.

I think if people remember its a game it would help.

I, personally, have seen many instances where players either cannot or actively choose not to differentiate between the two. And I think that this is in part due to the fact, that this RP-server encourages (as it should) deep personal and social RP - where the players pour a lot of time and emotions into their characters narratives. And when someone comes along and disrupts this (as they should be able to, as long as it is not detrimental behaviour), for example an angry drow man with a chip on his shoulder, this has a much greater impact on the person behind the character than say someone engaging in PVP in a game like world of warcraft or something similar. The problem is, that not everyone reacts the same way. Some players get really upset and sad that their character had to go through such an experience, where as someone else might shrug it off and continue on their way.

In the same set of ideas though, it isn't healthy to be so invested in a place of collective storytelling where if your narrative you have set out is disrupted it causes such an OOC hatred.

Again if somebody is just there to be disruptive by trying to cause greif that is different. But violent and disruptive characters are necessary. It forces people to respond. It drives change if its done well. Yes. It moves us in a direction we don't expect but that is the point of an interactive cooperative roleplaying experience.

If you are only here to tell your story as you want to tell it and any derivative of your plan isn't acceptable: You should be writing a book. Can it suck to lose? Yes. But can that also create narrative if done well? Absolutely.

Also a lot of the people who got very mad at my character were those that had their character pick a fight, be belittleing and disrespectful ICly, not respond to his ask they stop, and then get very very mad when the man who said "If you continue to be disrespectful I am going to kill you" followed up on his word.

If you don't give the angry man with a sword a reason to want to use it, they probably won't be going around smacking you with it unless they are just kinda toxic

This however can make some players feel like they're being pulled into some RP they aren't interested in - as you said it sucks to lose. If you have a character you vision as a top dog bad *ss motherfudger, and someone comes along to (knowingly or otherwise) "humiliate" them IC'ly, it's going to feel bad (see my previous post). And there is no solution to that, bar consent, and that would ruin the server.

Oh for sure. If its only done as a means of constantly belittling people and what not it can feel kind of bad. So there always needs to be some kind of balance struck.

Petrifictus wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:20 pm I've also become worried about increassed feelings of elitism and playing favorites OOC.

Like you're not "allowed" to act or question against certain characters/factions/settlements no matter what or else you're worse than baby eating drow.

Please be careful about the use of the word "elitism". It's a word that has been tossed around the forums over the years, and nearly always has been unhelpful, because trying to defend yourself against the label of being an elitist is pretty much impossible. If somebody thinks you're a snob, then no matter how carefully you approach the situation or how sincerely you express yourself, you'll always be trying harder to be a snob. It's also been used to justify some awful OOC behaviour in the past. Also, by accusing people of having a superiority complex, you in turn make them question whether you have an inferiority complex. Not saying this is the case, but these are all good reasons to not put too much value in this word.

I think I know the character you're referring to, and I've seen some of his political messages in the past. My guess is that the characters who treat yours with disdain are doing it because they may see him as haphazardly interfering with something he has a limited understanding of. That's my immediate, first impression as a player and in something like improv, it's probably best not to attribute something like that to OOC malice. I may be wrong, and if there's evidence of OOC behaviour, then you may be right.

As RandomHouseAudio and Szaren mentioned before, this sensitivity towards OOC behaviour is something that people do without realising, but it must be carefully considered. It's easy to assume that when your character attempts to do x and it results in z instead of y, that somebody else is maliciously interfering with you. This may be a fantasy world, but you still need to be convincing in your methods, and accept that sometimes you won't get the expected result. As GrumpyCat has said in the past, that's probably why most of the successful players on the server tend to appreciate what happens in between victory or failure. It's about the journey, and how that influences your character.

I'm going to say something contentious here:
It seems that a lot of drama is caused by the players having the average maturity of a 12-year old nerd losing his first character to a mean DM.

People need to think less about their own character and more about the overall stories happening. In a persistent world where everyone wants to be the main character, nobody ends up being

Sartain wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:47 pm It seems that a lot of drama is caused by the players having the average maturity of a 12-year old nerd losing his first character to a mean DM.

People need to think less about their own character and more about the overall stories happening.

I think my entire point is how the environment is such that few people, are willing after all of this constant perceived or otherwise true abuse. Even those that are willing are shut down by means that lead to literally no further storytelling.

Also your point would be far stronger if you didn't feel the need to insult just about anyone with an opinion in this thread.

Kreydis wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:55 pm

Sartain wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:47 pm It seems that a lot of drama is caused by the players having the average maturity of a 12-year old nerd losing his first character to a mean DM.

People need to think less about their own character and more about the overall stories happening.

I think my entire point is how the environment is such that few people, are willing after all of this constant perceived or otherwise true abuse. Even those that are willing are shut down by means that lead to literally no further storytelling.

Also your point would be far stronger if you didn't feel the need to insult just about anyone with an opinion in this thread.

You can choose to see it as an insult if you want to, I can't really stop you from that. But you might want to consider that this eagerness to take everything as malicious intent is part of the problem.

Edit: You're not supposed to throw a hissy-fit when things go your way in-game just as you're not supposed to solve all of your in-game could conflicts through mechanical PvP (in fact since everyone respawns this is probably the least useful solution to anything).

You have to swallow some camels when you're playing on a persistent world, one of them being that your character is not the main character, the setting is.
When things don't go your way, deal with the curveballs, try to fit your losses into a narrative with your antagonists instead of assuming malicious intent.
Another is that in a setting with literally hundreds of players, somebody is bound to be a jerk and it's best to deal with that in a chill fashion because starting some kind of in-game vendetta is only going to make things worse

Sartain wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:58 pm

Kreydis wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:55 pm

Sartain wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:47 pm It seems that a lot of drama is caused by the players having the average maturity of a 12-year old nerd losing his first character to a mean DM.

People need to think less about their own character and more about the overall stories happening.

I think my entire point is how the environment is such that few people, are willing after all of this constant perceived or otherwise true abuse. Even those that are willing are shut down by means that lead to literally no further storytelling.

Also your point would be far stronger if you didn't feel the need to insult just about anyone with an opinion in this thread.

You can choose to see it as an insult if you want to, I can't really stop you from that. But you might want to consider that this eagerness to take everything as malicious intent is part of the problem

I won't disagree at the idea that an eagerness to take everything as malicious as a problem. But I want to understand how you think that calling people children isn't innately an insult.

A perfect example of why Arelith has problems. Differences in personality, beliefs and temperament combined with perceived intentions in “lacking” communication. I’m no authority here, but I’ll suggest you take that discussion to a private place, to ensure this thread don’t derail into personal attacks and thus end up locked. Much appreciated!

Kreydis wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:12 pm

Sartain wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:58 pm

Kreydis wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 1:55 pm

I think my entire point is how the environment is such that few people, are willing after all of this constant perceived or otherwise true abuse. Even those that are willing are shut down by means that lead to literally no further storytelling.

Also your point would be far stronger if you didn't feel the need to insult just about anyone with an opinion in this thread.

You can choose to see it as an insult if you want to, I can't really stop you from that. But you might want to consider that this eagerness to take everything as malicious intent is part of the problem

I won't disagree at the idea that an eagerness to take everything as malicious as a problem. But I want to understand how you think that calling people children isn't innately an insult.

I'm not calling people children, I'm saying the server community will probably improve if adults stop acting like it.
I'm not much for sugar-coating things so I call it as I see it. You can choose to be offended or maybe you could consider why someone who has only been around for a month already has this impression.

Anyway, let's not derail the thread, this is about something bigger

I've recently run into issues with the must-win mentality of the surface side of the server whenever my PC is trying to ransom captured PCs. Namely... a lot of people on the surface would rather their PC's friends and acquaintences get their throats cut, rather than pay a ransom as low as 20-50k, because they can't stand the idea of a UD player 'winning' in any respect by getting paid for taking prisoners after a battle or raid.

This has been frustrating, for me, and for the people playing said prisoners, because its patently absurd. What kind of CG or LG PC says "We're not going to pay a dime, kill the boy, I don't care."
My character maims the PC, they go back topside, and 'team good', upon seeing them alive, spends ten minutes patting eachother on the back because "Good prevails again."

Its disheartening, and its been happening at an increasing frequency to the point where I 100% understand why the other people playing slavers offer the choice of a collar or killbash half the time.

Durvayas wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:35 pmPC's friends and acquaintences get their throats cut, rather than pay a ransom as low as 20-50k, because they can't stand the idea of a UD player 'winning' in any respect by getting paid for taking prisoners after a battle or raid.

This has been frustrating, for me, and for the people playing said prisoners, because its patently absurd. What kind of CG or LG PC says "We're not going to pay a dime, kill the boy, I don't care."

I think this is particular example is a bit of the realities of the server. It is far easier, and cost effective to let them die. Raise them later. Or get a mage to summon them out of said hostage situation. Death as a whole is a very bad. . . bargaining chip. Not to say that you're wrong or anything. Not to mention the whole it encourages more raiding and more hostage situation mentality. Which is another subset of IC debates onto the matter of "What even matters on this island."

This is a big part of why disarm builds are so popular. You don't really "win" a PvP situation by killing or capturing the other party, as they'll just come back in 24 hours, or just rez and tell their friends about the attack and they will be able to respond before the 24 hour lockout.

However, if you take a weapon and ruin someone's work on it, you technically are a "winner" as you can set someone's work back for IRL weeks.

Obviously, this isn't conducive to a friendly environment of good storytelling, but disarm or stealing stuff are really the only ways a PC can actually affect another PC. Perhaps part of promoting an environment of better storytelling would be forcing death to matter more. Many other servers mandate a "death amnesia" where characters are unaware of the minutes before they were killed in PvP. I'm still not sure why this isn't used on Arelith, as revenge posses are very prevalent here and in most cases don't serve an purpose other than OOC grief.

Another, more staff-intensive option, would be to have DMs actually RP out consequences of deaths in hostage/PvP situations so that just getting killed is not considered to be such an attractive option.

Kreydis wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:40 pm

Durvayas wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:35 pmPC's friends and acquaintences get their throats cut, rather than pay a ransom as low as 20-50k, because they can't stand the idea of a UD player 'winning' in any respect by getting paid for taking prisoners after a battle or raid.

This has been frustrating, for me, and for the people playing said prisoners, because its patently absurd. What kind of CG or LG PC says "We're not going to pay a dime, kill the boy, I don't care."

I think this is particular example is a bit of the realities of the server. It is far easier, and cost effective to let them die. Raise them later. Or get a mage to summon them out of said hostage situation. Death as a whole is a very bad. . . bargaining chip. Not to say that you're wrong or anything. Not to mention the whole it encourages more raiding and more hostage situation mentality. Which is another subset of IC debates onto the matter of "What even matters on this island."

Marks of Despair for everyone, go!

Durvayas wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:35 pm I've recently run into issues with the must-win mentality of the surface side of the server whenever my PC is trying to ransom captured PCs. Namely... a lot of people on the surface would rather their PC's friends and acquaintences get their throats cut, rather than pay a ransom as low as 20-50k, because they can't stand the idea of a UD player 'winning' in any respect by getting paid for taking prisoners after a battle or raid.

This has been frustrating, for me, and for the people playing said prisoners, because its patently absurd. What kind of CG or LG PC says "We're not going to pay a dime, kill the boy, I don't care."
My character maims the PC, they go back topside, and 'team good', upon seeing them alive, spends ten minutes patting eachother on the back because "Good prevails again."

Its disheartening, and its been happening at an increasing frequency to the point where I 100% understand why the other people playing slavers offer the choice of a collar or killbash half the time.

Nobody has ever asked any of my characters to pay a ransom. Not really sure how i would respond.

That being said "We dont negotiate with terrorists/criminals" is a common IRL mentality held by organizations, and I dont see it as necessarily a Bad Thing for characters to take this tack IG.

Death should be more meaningful. Especially PvP death. I personally log off for the day when i get killed in PvP. I think something like this would be a good mechanical solution. 8 hours, 12, or even 24 hours unless you are raised.

I wouldn't mind if getting corpse bashed meant 24 RL hours in the fugue for that character. Would stop people from respawning 3 minutes later and sending all their friends out for revenge or posting on the boards about how they won when they clearly didn't. I know some other posters here have stated how they loathe corpse bashing and beheading other players, but when there's no real consequence to dying and people won't even role play death seriously, even lie about it, that player head is really all the PVPer gets out of it and the only proof of their victory. Unless the person they bashed just happened to be carrying a lot of gold, but rarely is that the case.

Durvayas wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:35 pm I've recently run into issues with the must-win mentality of the surface side of the server whenever my PC is trying to ransom captured PCs. Namely... a lot of people on the surface would rather their PC's friends and acquaintences get their throats cut, rather than pay a ransom as low as 20-50k, because they can't stand the idea of a UD player 'winning' in any respect by getting paid for taking prisoners after a battle or raid.

This has been frustrating, for me, and for the people playing said prisoners, because its patently absurd. What kind of CG or LG PC says "We're not going to pay a dime, kill the boy, I don't care."
My character maims the PC, they go back topside, and 'team good', upon seeing them alive, spends ten minutes patting eachother on the back because "Good prevails again."

Its disheartening, and its been happening at an increasing frequency to the point where I 100% understand why the other people playing slavers offer the choice of a collar or killbash half the time.

This!
Good someone brought this up as I had very same encounters and its also shocking to the one playing captive!
I've personally found UD community and RP feeling more friendly, open minded, willing to bend and mature OOC despite all of us being bad guys IC. Something the surface can have a look and take example.

TroubledWaters wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:51 pmMany other servers mandate a "death amnesia" where characters are unaware of the minutes before they were killed in PvP.

We literally had that. I don't know why or when it changed. But we had that. It wasn't much different from now to be perfectly honest.

Lady Astray wrote:I wouldn't mind if getting corpse bashed meant 24 RL hours in the fugue for that character. Would stop people from respawning 3 minutes later and sending all their friends out for revenge or posting on the boards about how they won when they clearly didn't. I know some other posters here have stated how they loathe corpse bashing and beheading other players, but when there's no real consequence to dying and people won't even role play death seriously, even lie about it, that player head is really all the PVPer gets out of it and the only proof of their victory. Unless the person they bashed just happened to be carrying a lot of gold, but rarely is that the case.

The victory should be the narrative, not punishing the losing player. Forcing people to have to stop playing is also something that's not really wanted here. Even if it's encouraged to take a tiny break after dying.

Petrifictus wrote:I've personally found UD community and RP feeling more friendly, open minded, willing to bend and mature OOC despite all of us being bad guys IC. Something the surface can have a look and take example.

I agree, but it wasn't always this way. There's plenty of 'bad times in the underdark' to go around as there is the surface.

It's in part due to the nature of playing evil races in a fun and constructive way for each other. Because if we all default to WE ARE GENERIC MONSTERS down there, you end up with endless PvP. So to say, people are more thoughtful down there? Also lesser population. You don't get to pick and choose as much with your selection of RP partners.

The narrative of them magically coming back to life 3 minutes later and sending their goons after you in retaliation is dumb imo. I'd also be for changing the 24 hour rule to include death amnesia or extend to having your character's friends act on their behalf against the one who bashed them. If you want to stop the never ending cycle of PVP and corpse bashing out of retaliation either the mechanics or players' behavior has to change. People really need to learn to just take an L for the sake of the narrative. If they can't do that I'm all for a much stricter death mechanic that will actually make players think twice about instigating or initiating PVP.

Remember when dying in pvp had an accumulated consiquence system related to pvp deaths? They probably removed it after some poor guy got pked every day for no reason.

Lady Astray wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:16 pm I wouldn't mind if getting corpse bashed meant 24 RL hours in the fugue for that character. Would stop people from respawning 3 minutes later and sending all their friends out for revenge or posting on the boards about how they won when they clearly didn't. I know some other posters here have stated how they loathe corpse bashing and beheading other players, but when there's no real consequence to dying and people won't even role play death seriously, even lie about it, that player head is really all the PVPer gets out of it and the only proof of their victory. Unless the person they bashed just happened to be carrying a lot of gold, but rarely is that the case.

No. The worse you make the death penalties in an OOC sense, the more toxic PvP becomes because people WILL engage in PvP expressly to punish other players. It used to happen ALLLLLLL the time before the PvP penalties got a hard nerf. Bringing them back in another form will only return us to those days.

But currently there are close to no repercussions for dying both in PvP or PvE, except you cannot interact with the other involved party until 24 hours have passed and some temporary stat-loss. Death on Arelith is meaningless, especially deaths due to PvP. You bring up a fair point Durveyas, but all systems that can, will be abused (by some). Even the current system.

I think player mentality towards PvP needs to change, but not in the way people think. More than one person here has lamented the fact that they can't make "weak" builds due to the fact that power builders control the story and if you can't survive in PvP then your story can't survive either. This sounds a lot like the same "must win" mentality you're all admonishing - but since you can't reliably win in PvP, you delegitimize it and portray it as being unhealthy for the server. But more concerning than that is the fact that when PvP is divorced from roleplay and made so personal, other aspects of the game are made overly-personal not long after.

I'm about to ruin my reputation here. I'm awful at PvP. I certainly understand all the tactics, all the counters, all the tools at peoples' disposal, but I've only ever made, like, one character that was specifically intended to perform well in PvP, and I got bored with them after level 6. I have lost almost every fight I've been part of due to running gimmicky DC-based casters or DEX-based monk/rogues. The best advice I can give people who don't have the best builds or experience with PvP is to reflect that fact in the way you play your character. Own your shortcomings and maintain self-awareness of the fact that this isn't something you will do very well. Because a lot of the hurt feelings that emerge from PvP is born from the sense of failed expectations: You want to win really badly, but you lose instead, so you feel discouraged; You don't even want PvP to break out, but it does, so it's "ruined the RP moment" and you feel frustrated; Losing had tangible RP consequences, so you feel cheated... Delegitimizing or stigmatizing PvP as a narrative tool is born from a kneejerk reaction to defend someone's pride and perception of themselves, but it's a reaction that only goes to show that they are too attached to their character - because it's not defending "themself," but the character they play. The character's pride, and the perception the player has of the character, which they have attached to their own identity. It's a habit that has damaging consequences in any conflict that will arise surrounding that character they play, commonly leading to empathetic distress and anger alongside the character's experiences, excessive stress in moments of tension in the character's narrative, and I genuinely worry that the way we treat PvP on an OOC level serves only to encourage that habit. Treating a character's successes or failures in PvP as your own is the gateway drug to over-identifying with roleplay.

Maybe that's a dire assessment, so take all this with a grain of salt! I'm not a trained psychologist, obviously. All of this comes from personal experience and observation.

I'm a pretty self-aware person, but even I catch myself falling prey to the overly-empathetic mindset. With everything that's been going on in Andunor lately, things got really tense, and I realized I wasn't separating myself from my character very well and it was leading me towards some mild depression I was experiencing at the time, and for a (thankfully brief) time, even unwarranted anger towards the OOC personalities behind the characters. Typically this is where I'd roll the character - when you realize you're getting too attached, too empathetic, I personally encourage anyone to consider finding a point to roll the character they're identifying too strongly with - but I knew it'd be real inconvenient to all the people I was mid-plot with, and I was confident I caught it early and just needed some time on an alt to detach myself again. Ultimately, I believe the best thing someone can do to improve the community, is to take some time to reflect on their own unhealthy attitudes - not necessarily what may be unhealthy for the server, but unhealthy for themselves - and work towards some effective coping mechanisms to help detach them from the personas they play. Sometimes that means deleting a character, sometimes it means leaving some discord groups, sometimes it means going on hiatus... But in all cases, it requires maturity and self-awareness to be able to identify the best course of action.