Arelith

I agree the changes needed to happen (although I'm not really sure the default SR needed a nerf, as it's iconic of the class)- personally I would prefer a return to vanilla monks with certain epic level milestones in their progress switching their abilities from /day to a cooldown basis.

I also agree that a bunch of people rightfully feel like they got punched in the Pufferfish (even if I also agree everyone and their brother knew monks were broken AF), and that the extremely vitriolic response by other people who agree that the change needed to happen towards them voicing it is particularly juvenile and unnecessary.

One side is upset about something that should have been foreseeable , and the other side is pointing and laughing at their broken toy like a bully while insulting them.

This is a particularly discouraging thread for any prospective new players to read, all mechanical discussions aside. If this were ten years ago and I read this as a new player, I'd bounce.

I'm grateful for the work done- just not the ugly shadow this discussion is casting over it.

Edit: Punctuation

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:One side is upset about something that should have been foreseeable , and the other side is pointing and laughing at their broken toy like a bully while insulting them.

Worth noting is that a significant portion of those that pushed for the update internally play monks. There's nothing adversarial about it at all. It's simply something that had to happen.

My opinion is that all of the changes that went through needed to happen to some degree. Monk was OP as hell, and needed a fix....
But even as someone who doesn't play monks, the SR changes seem to be TOO much of a nerf.

Their SR should have been made either breachable, and kept high, or nonbreachable, and kept low.

Monks previously had the role of a mage-killer niche. They've never had good fort, and even fully geared for foritude, a monk reaches ~30 fort. How much HP is irrelevant. The SR inherent in the class was the one thing keeping vanilla monk from being trash.

Regardless of any other changes, the SR is what makes monk viable and now...

Currently, with the ill advised double whammy to SR, monk is a two-click kill.

Mords(which just about anyone is going to throw anyways)-->implosion/any fortitude based save or die.

I emphatically recommend returning an aspect of SR to the monk class. Either the high numbers, OR the unbreachability.
As is, you slapped drow SR on them and called it a day, and that isn't going to help them at all 75% of the time.

Irongron wrote:*picture of pretty asian themed weapons*
More monk weapon changes are coming though, and the latest nerfs clear the way for these to be wholly beneficial.

Thank you so much for this.
This is enough for me to have no complaints with the nerfs, as once these are added it will reopen avenues that were cut off in an even more accurate manner than was possible before.

I'm quite concerned with the katana update. There is no build for which those changes make katanas even remotely viable. While I understand the desire to appease a certain portion of the playerbase, this update falls squarely into the "trap" category. Why add an option that will simply lead to stress and frustration for new players? Did we learn nothing from kensai?

Moreover, the update is not even thematically fitting. The katana is a noble weapon. Barring the realm of bad anime, that's more befitting of samurai. Not monks.

Durvayas wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:47 pmI emphatically recommend returning an aspect of SR to the monk class. Either the high numbers, OR the unbreachability.
As is, you slapped drow SR on them and called it a day, and that isn't going to help them at all 75% of the time.

Any reversion of monk speed or monk SR are complete non-starters for discussion. They were the two most needed changes.

Katanas can actually fill much the same niches as a bastard sword. They're also small so they still work for the classic 20/7/3 Fighter/WM/Tumble dual wielder. It's not quite as strong as a scimitar for sword/shield but it does have lower dual wielding penalties.

An alternative is kukris, where the katanas have more base damage for the kukris expanded threat range.

Quarterstaves though? I'm pretty sure those need a nerf. They've got 2 AB over kamas.

Xerah wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:06 pm

Durvayas wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:47 pmI emphatically recommend returning an aspect of SR to the monk class. Either the high numbers, OR the unbreachability.
As is, you slapped drow SR on them and called it a day, and that isn't going to help them at all 75% of the time.

Any reversion of monk speed or monk SR are complete non-starters for discussion. They were the two most needed changes.

Then the conversation that should be started is "in what ways will monks be unique in the future?"

A corner cookie cutter rogue achieves the same SR with permanent blinding quickcast speed.

Everyone can slap on that sr head item and then just use a shield potion. Haste potions too

By making their defensive/offensive caps from saves to ac to ab essentially the same as others, its just another warrior class flavoured differently.

I am sorry for all the flak you may be getting. I understand none of us will all agree on the best thing at the end of the day. Thank you for your patience and work.

So it'll be a total bonus of +2AB?
That's cool, make sup for the only loss from taking the 21 in Wisdom really, ty

malcolm_mountainslayer wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:38 pm

Xerah wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:06 pm

Durvayas wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:47 pmI emphatically recommend returning an aspect of SR to the monk class. Either the high numbers, OR the unbreachability.
As is, you slapped drow SR on them and called it a day, and that isn't going to help them at all 75% of the time.

Any reversion of monk speed or monk SR are complete non-starters for discussion. They were the two most needed changes.

Then the conversation that should be started is "in what ways will monks be unique in the future?"

A corner cookie cutter rogue achieves the same SR with permanent blinding quickcast speed.

Everyone can slap on that sr head item and then just use a shield potion. Haste potions too

By making their defensive/offensive caps from saves to ac to ab essentially the same as others, its just another warrior class flavoured differently.

I am sorry for all the flak you may be getting. I understand none of us will all agree on the best thing at the end of the day. Thank you for your patience and work.

That rogue only gets 26 SR. The monk has 32. If a monk wants to focus on something, they can grab 6 feats for it in epic and have 44.

Orian_666 wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:41 pm So it'll be a total bonus of +2AB?
That's cool, make sup for the only loss from taking the 21 in Wisdom really, ty

We had monks already with ki fist 5 for rp purposes long time ago. So its a free bonus for them too. The bonus speed loss AND SR breachable is a bummer. But oh well. Dont make 30 level monks i guess. Its like that with most classes.

Since Xerah took the lead and offered 2am apologies, it seems I need to follow and offer 4am apologies...particularly to Xerah. I was way too invested in this and, from the beginning on this thread, I have made certain statements which could be taken to impugn competence and motive. Apologies, It really was the process I should have focused on.

I do have a question about the current process, though. Since relevels are live now, but new monk weapons are not, can we safely sit on our untouched monks until all the changes are made? I fear some have already reveled theirs...and now we find out, one day later, there is more to come...

Also, for future class changes, it would be nice if we could have some sort of format to the update thread, somethings as simple as...added, removed, current state. [One of the big confusions to me on this last updated came from a form of version control, where we weren't sure what aspects from previous updates still remained.] Another avenue to accomplish this might be a concurrent wiki update, which gives the ground truth of how the class works from 1st to 30th in real time. Again, this would only be for class changes. We don't need concurrent wiki updates for Bendir's new hitching post and the staff's time would understandably better spent doing something else.

Thanks!

So feed back. 30 monk small stature.

The characters damage is no different than it was before this alteration around 38 average 7 attacks a round 8 with haste it's ab is 3 points higher it has Ki 5, it's AC is 1 point higher at 61 but that's my fault for messing up the rebuild with a wrong allocation of a stat point and feats loss due to it.( I would like another rebuild as I was ambushed by the last one and annoyed about getting the build wrong).
Added bonuses to damage and AB still vanish when switching from thrown weapons to fists.(most of the time).
Loss of epic dodge has hugely impacted combat of course dropping survivability and increasing expense.
Loss of SR by 10 points means casters must always be targeted first and the monk has no way of protecting itself from harmful magic except potions that are very limited.

IMO the class in order to by competitive with other classes must multi class or will have nothing going for it every level over 21 is now accepting you are taking a loss to the characters survivability and a net loss in risk vs reward.

To make it more viable I would suggest removing whirlwind attack and adding defensive roll allowing the selection of epic dodge as a feat choice in epic levels.
You could also remove the extra damage or halve it as it is mostly useless on epic content as everything has unbeatable DR so ki 5 does not bypass it anyway.
Katanna users get +6 weapons other monks get +3 with double feat investment unarmed monks get +5 meaning you need to use an extra epic feat to gain one less AB than someone with a single weapon type.

Little late to the party, but I'd like to offer my quick and dirty first impressions on the changes. Many of these impressions might have to do with the fact that I was able to rebuild my character with slightly more competency than before. I'm currently playing a pure level 30 unarmed WIS monk. These impressions come only after a few solo PvE runs, so they're bound to evolve and change as time goes on.

Overall damage output seems to have increased. The bonus weapon focus early on makes it easier to choose EFW at epic levels. This has increased my character's accuracy, but damage per hit has also appeared to go up. Encounters feel faster than they did before.

General defense has returned to its baseline. No Blinding Speed or E-Dodge bring my character's survivability back to what it was before the first monk update. With E-Dodge, I was able to run through a dungeon unbuffed while only healing once at the end. Without it, I find myself healing roughly every 4 or 5 encounters which is pretty fair. That's maybe once every 8 or so minutes which ties into...

General utility is mixed, if only because I was a big fan of the monk's old movement speed. Empty Body has also lost some of its utility, despite now being on a cooldown. Stunning Fist was nerfed significantly with the move to EE, leaving a monk's main tool for lockdown less useful. I haven't noticed the change to SR yet, but I haven't tested running through dungeons with offensive casters yet. Wholeness of Body is great for healing between encounters, and as an emergency heal when things get tough. WoB is basically a pocket GResto, and the timer at 10 minutes is just slightly above the average time it takes to pause and heal. Tongue of the Sun and Moon might be overlooked in PvE, but it's incredibly, incredibly fun and useful in RP and PvP. Lastly, I wasn't expecting to have so much fun using improved whirlwind attack. The visual effect is perfect for channelling kung-fu action stars, but the AoE damage is nothing to scoff at either.

Overall, damage output is up and defense is down (back to normal). Utility is hard to measure, and has shifted considerably. I think if there's something to look at with monks, it's there.

While I don't have an informed opinion on the SR change, I'd offer a few ideas. I'd also appreciate the community's feedback on these:

Let level 28 monks add half of their base WIS modifier (before items) to their SR. This would give about 3-5 extra SR to monks that invest fully into their class with a focus on Wisdom, bringing their SR up to 35-37.

Another idea is to either add +1 or double the value gained from the Improved SR feats. I noticed my monk was pretty feat-starved at epic levels in order to make him relatively viable. At a 32 cap, a +2 difference in SR doesn't seem too big. At +4, taking two SR feats will bring the monk back up to their original baseline SR. +3 is also will achieve the same with 3 feats. Either of these seem like a fair trade: 2-3 epic feats in return for their original SR.

In any case, I'm still having fun playing the class. The changes haven't diminished the experience of punching people. It feels like a different experience from before the first sweep of updates, and I'm looking forward to whatever direction the class takes in the future.

So having lived with the changes for a few days I can say it's not that bad apart from the lack of magic defences.

I did the dwarven ruins dungeon today and was hit by every offensive spell that was cast that was with 34 SR.

This has had a negative impact on the class and my enjoyment of playing it a pure classed monk has no viable magic defence other than it's SR it is one of the defining abilities of the class that along with it's speed and unarmed fighting ability.

Monks have lost two of the class abilities so speed and magic resistance are now both effectively gone making it a subpar fighter with lower AB and HP than the other melee classes as in rangers with magic access,Hips,better hit die and attack bonus and paladins again with more of the same - hips.
If compared to the fighter class is has lower hp and ab and while gaining mind immunity at level 21 the class is still weaker as it gets less feats less feat choice and lower DR penetration due to the buffs given to the fighter class.
If compared to other 3/4 ab classes the bard is far stronger,clerics no need for listing there advantages.
And now also Rogues which get D8 hp 3/4 AB and perm haste,tons of skills, massive damage and lots of class items and bonuses and of course UMD.

The monk class now feels like the poor cousin to the other combat classes, can you play one? sure but why would you?

You would have a character that is subpar to every other class in the game with no defining features other than unarmed fighting bonuses and mind immune at level 21.

Final note the addition of improved whirlwind attack.
You sacrifice your 7-8 attacks per round for 1 attack that hits everything around you with your full AB.
That's okay but it has a 10 second cool down isn't removing the cool down may make it better.

Ironically, the two things that IMO need looked at are the two "non-starters" on the discussion list, if you actually want monk to feel like monk.

You could before, and can now, do horrid, horrid things with multi-class, which is one reason why the class is so hard to balance. Pure monks, even though they have some perks, particularly suffer in this update.

I do think the class is in a pretty good place, but I would like to see some minor tweaking.

Non-starter #1) SR. As before, I think lower could be okay, if it were unbreachable; but it should be higher, if it is breachable. Its too easy to peel off 10 or more SR.

Non-starter #2) Monk Speed. As before, I think the current speed is okay and a full return brings with it the predictable balance issues. BUT, what I would like to see is maybe leave current speed progression on monk as it is, but allow a higher total cap for monks only (achievable for limited durations from haste, expeditious retreat, and blinding speed).

It makes NO SENSE to me that my epic monk, in peak physical condition, is exactly the same speed when hasted as the 80 year old wizard I'm partying with who has 6 dex and 8 con. You would be surprised how many character have more or less permanent haste, from Rogues to Warlocks, from legacy Favored Souls and Weave Masters, to even any Wizard rich enough to stock up on wands. Monks are no faster than these characters under any condition, and I think this is wrong. The middle path here would allow them to retain their hallmark speed as a class, but to exceed others would require the appropriate tax. This would also make that extra speed temporary and, perhaps more importantly, dispellable.

Other changes #3) I think the easiest change to enhance pure monk, which has been mentioned before, would be to add defensive roll somewhere into their progression. This would allow them access to Epic Dodge again, without the stupid Shadow Dancer levels. I think this move predictably reduced build diversity and forced us back into some of the same old uber monk models (20/10, 20/5/5, 25/5). I would love to see this added into their progression somewhere in the teens, or, at the very least, as a new 28th lvl perk. This alone would make up for some of the lack luster aspects of the class, especially on pure.

Cheers!

Durvayas wrote: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:47 pm My opinion is that all of the changes that went through needed to happen to some degree. Monk was OP as hell, and needed a fix....
But even as someone who doesn't play monks, the SR changes seem to be TOO much of a nerf.

Their SR should have been made either breachable, and kept high, or nonbreachable, and kept low.

Monks previously had the role of a mage-killer niche. They've never had good fort, and even fully geared for foritude, a monk reaches ~30 fort. How much HP is irrelevant. The SR inherent in the class was the one thing keeping vanilla monk from being trash.

Regardless of any other changes, the SR is what makes monk viable and now...

Currently, with the ill advised double whammy to SR, monk is a two-click kill.

Mords(which just about anyone is going to throw anyways)-->implosion/any fortitude based save or die.

I emphatically recommend returning an aspect of SR to the monk class. Either the high numbers, OR the unbreachability.
As is, you slapped drow SR on them and called it a day, and that isn't going to help them at all 75% of the time.

Almost all of the character's I've put any time into (read- enough to take past level 10) have been casters, and despite that, I emphatically agree with this assessment. Playing two casters intended for CL 30 if I ever go out and kill enough extra things to make that happen <they always managed to get tangled up in something before they can>, the idea of a monk with 42 SR is a little daunting- but it's not impenetrable.

People are always quick to point out that role-playing and power-gaming aren't mutually exclusive, and I agree- and in this case, optimizing your 27/3, 26/4, or 23/4/3 casters for skill and feat dips should come with the drawback that you might actually have to worry about that monk who has 42 SR (without spending 5 feats for it, which is a ridiculous requirement to make for a functional version of anything that's meant to be iconic of a class, IMO).

Instead, it seems because the majority choose to multiclass and have less than a 40% chance, that they were given a free cookie and monk was given a kick in the one place it didn't need it.

I'm fine with it being breachable- why wouldn't I be? I play casters, after all. But if it's breachable the original numbers should go back into play. Anyone who takes feats on monk for SR (under the current iteration) definitely shouldn't be getting them breached by an itemizable spell, IMO.

Not to divert the current conversation, but is the wiki not updated yet?

Weapon Disciplines: Monks are adept with an assortment of weaponry. As a character progresses in monk levels, they unlock additional weapons that they can wield ably.

• At level 4, the Monk gains Weapon Focus in Club.
• At level 8, the Monk gains Weapon Focus in Kama.
• At level 12, the Monk gains Weapon Focus in Quarterstaff.

On my level 8 monk I only have the unarmed Weapon Focus.

MissEvelyn wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:26 am Not to divert the current conversation, but is the wiki not updated yet?

Weapon Disciplines: Monks are adept with an assortment of weaponry. As a character progresses in monk levels, they unlock additional weapons that they can wield ably.

• At level 4, the Monk gains Weapon Focus in Club.
• At level 8, the Monk gains Weapon Focus in Kama.
• At level 12, the Monk gains Weapon Focus in Quarterstaff.

On my level 8 monk I only have the unarmed Weapon Focus.

Wiki ain't updated at the moment with monk. Here is the update for you:
viewtopic.php?f=23&p=202615#p201751

Double edit, for TL;DR. Accurate depiction of how I think a monk SR vs spellcaster fight should go:




Two cents:

Monk, as it stands, is almost always multiclassed into 20/10 or 20/5/5 for one and only one reason. Epic dodge. Without epic dodge, even having insane AC is going to be a problem if people just fish for 20s. In order to balance monks without making them outrageous, it'd be possible to tinker with a few things...

I think that the point here is that monks had some overwhelmingly good goodies that made them overpowered. I'd suggest bringing back the same goodies in the form of a slightly superior edge in their chosen field.

Examples:

- give level 25 monks defensive roll, the only thing they lack to unlock epic dodge.

- boost their AC bonus by a tiny bit (1-2 points?)

- boost their SR for very high levels to the point that, even breached, against a wizard of the same level, they have a 30 to 50% chance to nope out of spells. Not 100%.

- allow high level monks to breach the speed cap by a very small margin. For instance, make them 5-7% faster than a hasted PC at level 28 or 30. If the speed advantage is small it would still allow a skilled monk to "kite" but it'd take a lot of effort and not work 100% of the time.

I feel like the issue here is that monks have or have had core features that made them completely immune to certain things. Instead, they should land on being "particularly good" and "threatening" against certain things, and have a higher chance of winning. But not one hundred percent.

A similar alternative could be done with paths. For instance, making one path specialized in AC (but with lower SR), one path specialized in SR (at the expense of AC), one path specialized in katana, one specialized in quarterstaff.

Make the non-path monk unarmed/kamas focussed, and give them a balanced SR and AC.

Make the specialized path monks -very good- at their chosen niche, but weaker against other builds (AC monk strong against high ab classes, SR monk strong against spellcasters. Neither unbeatable.)

This would allow some diversity, and make it possible for people to play their own twist on how they envision the class. Even create monastic orders specializing in this or that path, or "style".

Again, the important thing would be playing on percentages. For instance, (merciful git gud gods, forgive math errors) using vanilla nwn values but counting SR as breachable...

"d20 + caster level + spell penetration vs. SR"

"For a level 30 caster, the maximum possible roll is 56, meaning a spell resistance of 57 renders a creature immune to PC-cast spells that check spell resistance."

"Lowering spell resistance is a result of nature's balance (-3 to -32) and the breach line of spells — lesser spell breach (-3), greater spell breach (-5), and Mordenkainen's disjunction (-10)."

"Spell penetration, greater spell penetration, or epic spell penetration (+2, +4, or +6, respectively)"

"Improved spell resistance (epic) grants a bonus of +2 to SR, stackable up to 20".

"Diamond soul: The monk gains spell resistance equal to their class level + 10."

Pure wizard vs pure monk, both level 30, no feats:

D20+CL30 = 30-50 roll, vs 40 sr:
Wiz breaches (with Mordenkainen's -10): 30-50 roll vs 30 sr. Wizard spell goes through 100% of the time (needs to roll at least a 0 out of a d20 roll).

D20+CL30 = 30-50 roll, vs 50 sr:
Wiz breaches (with Mordenkainen's -10): 30-50 roll vs 40 sr. Wizard spell goes through 50% of the time. (needs to roll at least a 10 out of a d20 roll).

27/3 wizard vs pure monk, both level 30, no feats:

D20+CL27 = 27-47 roll, vs 40 sr:
Wiz breaches (with Mordenkainen's -10): 27-47 roll vs 30 sr. Wizard spell goes through 85% of the time. (needs to roll at least a 17 out of a d20 roll).

D20+CL27 = 27-47 roll, vs 50 sr:
Wiz breaches (with Mordenkainen's -10): 27-47 roll vs 40 sr. Wizard spell goes through 35% of the time. (needs to roll at least a 7 out of a d20 roll).

Pure wizard vs pure monk, both level 30, wizard has epic spell pen (+6):

D20+CL30+6 = 36-56 roll, vs 40 sr:
Wiz breaches (with Mordenkainen's -10): 36-56 roll vs 30 sr. Wizard spell goes through 100% of the time (needs to roll at least a 0 out of a d20 roll).

D20+CL30 = 36-56 roll, vs 50 sr:
Wiz breaches (with Mordenkainen's -10): 36-56 roll vs 40 sr. Wizard spell goes through 80% of the time. (needs to roll at least a 16 out of a d20 roll).

Pure wizard vs pure monk, both level 30, wizard has epic spell pen (+6), monk has improved SR2 (+4):

D20+CL30+6 = 36-56 roll, vs 44 sr:
Wiz breaches (with Mordenkainen's -10): 36-56 roll vs 34 sr. Wizard spell goes through 100% of the time (needs to roll at least a 0 out of a d20 roll).

D20+CL30 = 36-56 roll, vs 54 sr:
Wiz breaches (with Mordenkainen's -10): 36-56 roll vs 44 sr. Wizard spell goes through 60% of the time. (needs to roll at least a 12 out of a d20 roll).

Consider balancing things out by:

- Granting monks 20 + level SR (breachable with mords up to -10)
- Either adding spell resistance (+2), greater spell resistance (+4), epic spell resistance (+6) non stackable as selectable monk feats, or removing spellpen feats and adding epic spell pen feats (+2 to spell pen, stackable up to 20) to match the investment of spellcasters against -the- SR class.

This way, monks, same feats and same level investments, would still have a 50% chance of noping out of a spell. If the spell goes through and it's a save or die fort spell, the monk is likely dead. If it doesn't the wizard is in a world of hurt, but either is a toss of the coin not absolute immunity or NO immunity. Run a few tests and crank it higher or lower (50%, 55%, 60%, 65% etc). Don't make it so low it's useless, or so high it makes someone immune 100% of the time with minimum or no investment.

Edit, for science:

Seekeepeek wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:45 am Wiki ain't updated at the moment with monk. Here is the update for you:
viewtopic.php?f=23&p=202615#p201751

More useful than the last change log, IMO, is this.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=6296

Seekeepeek wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 9:45 am

MissEvelyn wrote: Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:26 am Not to divert the current conversation, but is the wiki not updated yet?

Weapon Disciplines: Monks are adept with an assortment of weaponry. As a character progresses in monk levels, they unlock additional weapons that they can wield ably.

• At level 4, the Monk gains Weapon Focus in Club.
• At level 8, the Monk gains Weapon Focus in Kama.
• At level 12, the Monk gains Weapon Focus in Quarterstaff.

On my level 8 monk I only have the unarmed Weapon Focus.

Wiki ain't updated at the moment with monk. Here is the update for you:
viewtopic.php?f=23&p=202615#p201751

That's helpful, except one bit that has me thoroughly confused. The new update states that "- Monk no longer gets Blinding Speed at 26 and Epic Dodge at 28 or any other free weapon feat from the previous updates."

Does this also refer to Improved Critical in Unarmed that they would otherwise get at level 28?

EDIT: RedGiant's link above seems to dispel any doubt. Thanks!

I had this stashed in ntb for weeks, but I am still posting it, even now, because the point is not about whining for something that was done, but more like preventing things in the future.


Monk

I see the problem, how these changes are handled.
I mentioned this before, but the changes should be done in the way, which doesn't impact the concept of the character utterly. Use a scalpel, not a chainsaw. This especially comes with weapons in this case, but I will get to that later.

After the boost of monks, there should be quick (before players make, level and integrate their monks into the world), but even if it was not possible, successive nerf should be not harming parts that were not broken.
The questions coming up are.

Did the monks need free epic dodge and blinding speed?
No.
Would taking it away harm the characters?
No.

Did the monks need free all weapons feats (focuses, imp crit)?
No.
Would taking it away harm the characters?
Yes, we already have played characters that use a variety of weapons and are known for it.


Did the monks need free all weapons specialization feats?
No.
Would taking it away harm the characters?
No, that's just fighter class special, there is no reason for monks to get it. But taking it away doesn'T brake anything, just lowers the damage.


Did the monks need free all new fancy items?
No.
Would taking it away harm the characters?
Yes, people are already geared and spent energy and time to acquire them. (I know there were not taken away, I am just putting this here for diversity).

Did the monks need katana as UBAB weapon?
No.
Would taking it away harm the characters?
Yes, there is a good number of characters with this concept.

What I see as a problem is also (with both updates) changing the nature and role of this class.
As far as I can remember, in NWN, monks are defined as fast (as and ms), defensive warriors with a lot of small penetrating hits and specialized as antimages. This is supported by mechanical features like uncapped speed, more attacks per round (usually with less damage), high bonuses to AC and high SR.
What the changes try to do is changing this role, by
taking the speed away
with mage, cleric-travel, bard, and items you reach the same speed
taking the SR away
current SR 32 is the same as some races have for free, you can pay with expensive feats for 2 more, but all of it is breachable
so specialist monk 'anti-mage' gets to 44 (spending all 6 epics feats on SR), -10 from the first mordekaiden even from scroll, gets 34
now imagine specialist wizard with 11+7 feats which can get to 36 penetration (2 of those feats taken as pre-epic)
This doesn't seem to be a good anti-mage imho
and boosting ab and damage (dmg like... twice?)
+6 +6 +5 = 17 first patch
+6 +6 +4 = 16 second patch

Now I wonder, what is the role of this class because it seems you are damage dealer with standard speed and standard SR. Yes, it gains free whirlwind, which you don't want to use because you have a class which is special for its great number of attacks per round.
At this point, it seems to me this is just another fighter because there is no special thing about monk anymore.

The point is, there is no reason to play monk save hipster 'I am snowflake' RP reasons (which are ok), but mechanically you can do the same with brycer (well, much more, you even can reach 40 saves and better anti-mage than monk), and your role would be the same.


So.. I won't just remonstrate here, I also tell what I think should/could be done (I have no illusions that the status of the class changes, this is just food for the brain).

Speed
This is with the SR defining feature for this class, he is the guy who jumps on the chandelier, runs on the walls and does these extraordinary feats.
Nerf it. Why not, but why should anyone with one feat or haste (even from scroll or items) be able to do the same?
+1% speed for every level, uncapped flat and boostable by haste (to max of 180). 30% is a difference, but not game-breaking. It is something they got at 9th level.

Attack speed
As per the first update, just katana wouldn't get a flurry of blows.

Damage and AB
Unbuffed, standard with added wraps. There is no reason to buff this, this is the downside of the class.

SR
The standard one, there is nothing broken about this in vanilla.
Specialist monk = 10+30+12=52 SR (note: no epic discipline nor epic weapon specialization)
Specialist caster = 30+6=36+1d20 20% chance to penetrate
Not specialist monk = 10+30=40 SR
Not specialist caster = 30+1d20 50% chance to penetrate
What is wrong with those numbers?
Also, for monk, you have to spend only epic feats. With caster, you use 2 preepic feats and only one epic feat.

Other
I would take the path of improving the special features of the class, like (before the first update: boost)
stunning fist: as anti-mage, the monk could get bonus ab or dmg against heavily buffed opponents (like +1ab or +2 dmg for buff against a buffed opponent)
quivering palm: some kind of dispel/breach on successful save

As for what to do with the nerf
I would take away epic dodge, blinding speed, bonus ab and mostly damage (weapon specializations!). Keeping the things which affected character concepts like weapons (why did all these katana masters throw away their katanas and started hitting the **** with their bare hands?) and given items.
This seems like the second round of some changes which are not fitting the class (whirlwind) and taking away class signature features (like SR).


But I will stress the point of this post again, the problem is how brutal the changes (nerfs) are and how they destroy the characters, not only mechanically, but they take the willingness to play them from players.
And nwn isn't game which can afford to lose many players as there is no influx of new ones.


This brings me to the last point I want to make here, even if that is a little bit of an off-topic.
There is no good system on reparation/correction when something like this happens.