The Big UMD Change Thread

[Adam Antium]

Let's not forget the fact that Avascular Mass is now saveless 1/2 hp loss, lol.

Honestly, please just reverse the update (you have version control, surely...) and actually do testing and balance feedback with people who know anything about such things.

[Aodh Lazuli]

I wish I had time to type all the reasons for this being a poor update, but alas, I have to be at work in five minutes.

[telmarael]

Honestly, in the spirit of those changes, barring pure casters from accessing fighter-oriented goodness like discipline would only seem logical now.
I'm not about to enter the evergoing holywar of casterVSmundane, but from a perspective of an ordinary player the reaction to those changes seems very unsettling. I've visited Arelith on different stages of it's development, tried different classes, finding different success with all of them. And yet, there was something I always new would be a constant - the "persistent world" will persist. And now, in the time of change, it doesn't seem as comforting anymore. I hope that when all the changes go through, I do not understand why haven't all the changes been implemented simultaneously on a later date TOGETHER, the server becomes better than it was. So right now, and I'm certain that I'm not the only one who thinks so, I'm not sure that time should be invested into even trying to create something that resembles a well-established character.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

I do very much like the weapon changes. I think that's very neat, and'll open up some fun variety in what characters use day to day.

The other changes, I leave to the discussion of wiser heads than mine.

[Shadowy Reality]

How about we calm down and give actual useful feedback by playing and sharing specific experiences instead going all in on demanding a rollback of something that has taken a lot of time and effort?

So much this.

I have been around for many years, every now and then things break. Even if I do like the idea of the UMD change, I share some of the concerns raised here with its currently implementation.

With that said, we are not entitled to anything, and shouting and demanding the same thing for 5 pages is not going to do much.
I am sure the Dev team got the message by now, let's give them a bit of space to breath and work on next steps?

[Woper_The_Black]

Give everybody a wooden sword and cardboard shield and a wand of magic missiles.

[godhand-]

What logic's that, seriously ?
With scrolls, you can :
1) Time-Stop ASAP to buy time and get some initiative.
2) If you're a god, you can cancel your opponant Time-Stop and place your own instead.
3) You can mord his Gsanc
4) You can disjunction + WoF his summons
5) You can precast banishment
I'm sure I forgot a lot of stuff, but those are the counterplays to being oneshotted, mostly. It's that sort of things that have been removed, and now you'll get those rofl-stomp combos working smoothly in all situations without counterplays.

My logic as follows :
Quickened haste = 3s.
Hasted TS = 3s
TS=9s {
Disable/DPS/Save or Die 1 = 3s
Disable/DPS/Save or Die 2 = 3s
GSanc = 3s }
Launch summons, EDK, vamps etc, buff, reposition.

Cast MD, WoF, TS, from scroll = 6s

Unfortunately, if the caster initiates, i just don't see how you can make any of your 'counterplays' listed. you're on the backfoot and they have already dropped 7 actions before you've completed your first scroll read. And say you survive and get your scroll read off, you've got multiple problems to deal with, and if the caster is good, i don't htink you'll be in a position to do any of them.
And theoretically you are god, you get a Timestop off and place your own? Great, but you can't even damage this person for 9 seconds due to the timestop nerf, assuming they are beginning on full health.

UMD is not the silver bullet to the problem that is Casters being OP.

That said, casters are probably a tad too powerful in the first place, but it's hard to balance them without rendering them irrelevant, that's why it wasn't done.

I'm happy to agree with this sentiment, and some of the newspells aren't making the situation any better, they are just adding MORE firepower to the wizards.

Bring back Kensai as an option, if you're losing out on access to something, at least give something in return, the extra APR is a big boon in a situation like this, and definitely puts something like a Barbarian alot higher on the Tier list than previously...
A chunky 8 APR in rage with dualwield (orc bloodaxe as example) and, yes, you are cleaning up 8x50+dmg for 300+ damage (including misses) in a single KD round on a mage.

[Fargreze]

How about we calm down and give actual useful feedback by playing and sharing specific experiences instead going all in on demanding a rollback of something that has taken a lot of time and effort?

So much this.

I have been around for many years, every now and then things break. Even if I do like the idea of the UMD change, I share some of the concerns raised here with its currently implementation.

With that said, we are not entitled to anything, and shouting and demanding the same thing for 5 pages is not going to do much.
I am sure the Dev team got the message by now, let's give them a bit of space to breath and work on next steps?

No one is shouting or being even remotely unreasonable. I find the critics of the UMD change to be articulate and level-headed. Allow me to join them:

I am just as excited as everyone else for the future of haks, new weapons, areas, clothing and other content; I'm hopeful that this change, which will certainly promote parties and teamwork (it reduces solo potential without a Lore investment, hearkening back to the classic era of MMOs where solo=death), can be converted into something positive for both the aesthetic and the social experience of the server. The most immediate upshot of denying mundane characters crucial scrolls is gutting the PvP viability of those classes: knowledge and experience won't help a player whose mechanical options just cannot respond to certain threats (casters do not have this problem, and additionally need not sacrifice crucial skills for Lore - they've got the INT for it). The over-reliance on UMD of yesterday, including the ridiculous but common situation of having to wait until Level 28 to allocate those skillpoints (now widely considered a lesser evil) is partially solved, but by adding a 'Lore tax' on top of it. Earlier scroll access via Lore is great: denying Mord's, even WoF from most mundane builds... Until I know how reliable/effective magical rods are, I'm in no rush to use my one-time rebuilds. This is the reason people complain about transparency.

I hope the Commoner class will not exacerbate the occasional tiresome experience of shallow, idle roadside RP in lieu of exploration and character development (which is so often spurred by the events of an *adventure*). It may be a pleasant atmospheric flavour and it may create a new organic player-driven quest system - we'll see. It's different from playing a combat class, because there's no expectation that the character will ever fulfill a heroic ideal by becoming a more advanced and powerful fighter. After all, if that power is an illusion, and you know that casters will simply dominate you in any real combat situation, the whole setting loses a little magic (no pun intended). A part of my investment in that character's journey is gone: a part that relies on the feeling that anything could happen if s/he fights hard and well enough. Balance is an atmospheric element with RP consequences, and that's why everyone is reeling - including people like myself who don't expect or seek frequent PvP.

Most importantly, this community has an unusually positive and accepting atmosphere, which is conducive to good RP and the induction of so many new players into the server. Don't mistake us for being entitled, or close-minded, or even a bunch of jilted non-caster players. Arelith has experienced PvPers and others with extensive mechanical knowledge; today I have seen near-unanimous skepticism and trepidation from those players about this change, in a server that had long been struggling towards balance (at least since I joined, awhile before the barbarian biteback removal). Yesterday, balance looked decent after the past year+ of fiddling with PM's, then Monks, and Wild Mages. We're being told we don't have all the information about what's to come: we only know that if we have to fight an EDK-using caster, or an elemental swarm-using Druid, etc, in five minutes, the odds are suddenly much worse.

It's great that so much content is being added. I would even agree that mundane characters should have limited access to magic for aesthetic reasons (as long as there was some kind of comparable, viable mechanical substitute: we'll see about these rods). But when the experts said PMs had unreasonable AC (among other things), they were right. When they said Monks were unanswerable in combat, they were right. When they said Wild Mages were a straight upgrade to pure Wizards at 30...

I understand that we have to expect growing pains: well, you can see that we're feeling the pain. Everyone's being pretty reserved and reasonable, given they don't know if or when the balance will be restored. This all has to be worth it in the end.

[Queen Titania]

I am actually going to strongly disagree with line 1, there have been some posts that are less than appropriate forum decorum. As a general warning, please be mindful of what you type.

Honestly, please just reverse the update (you have version control, surely...) and actually do testing and balance feedback with people who know anything about such things.

This line crosses into inappropriate, you may mean well in your message, but please be mindful of future posts.

[Adam Antium]

Titania, respectfully, it really isn't over the line when you have an administrator saying things like "thankfully we no longer use a balance team anymore":

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25327&p=202506&hil ... am#p202506

(a couple of posts down is a response from someone taking issue with the very objectionable things stated by Irongron)

IronGron is happy that there's no balance team that figures this stuff out anymore. This update is a testament to the issue. Avascular Mass alone is enough to make heads turn. Why is it a saveless 1/2 hp reduction spell again?

Maybe the words "anyone who knows anything about that" were a bit harsher but when he says he's glad there's no balance team figuring these things out anymore, because apparently they made a bad call on monk changes, it's not inaccurate or uncalled for. Clearly there's an issue here.

[Ecthelion]

Stuff. Sorry about that, bit short on time to edit the quotes correctly.

Well it's certainly mostly about predicting the cast, but the two time-stops fall after 6 secs and I've seen some of those being countered. I think EDK removes GSanc if cast after, although I'm not 100% sure. Same for banishment, mostly pre-casting to lock up the area.
Never said it was easy, I was never very good at this personally, but not every wizard will do the right chaining, thus it'll probably allow some counterplays that you'll (or not) execute in time. Luckily ! Also sometimes you'll survive those few rounds and perhaps manage to regain some initiative.

As agreed, casters are in any case a pain to deal with (especially if warded) !

[-stick-]

Invis purage and +5 weapon is all you really need against a fully warded caster

[14All]

Yeah, Adam Antium’s post isn’t over the line at all. It’s just blunt repetition of almost every other post in here:

“For a change as drastic as this, it should have been thoroughly tested by people who actually ACTIVELY PLAY and KNOW game mechanics.”

I’m spectating now, but I really hope we don’t start grasping at straws to try and lock the thread. Thanks for letting the server voice itself in the meantime.

[JubJub]

As others have said instead of just OMG this is horrible, try it and then provide useful feedback of this is my experience with the new changes. Like most I think there are some good changes and some changes I am worried about. it's nice the simple spam KD thing is no more but 18 sec timer seems too much. But useful feedback is of a lot more use to developers then just pages of this is horrible change it.

[kossos]

The debate is getting quite focused on late game PvP but let's not forget about the level up phase and less optimized players that may find themselves unable to do their dailies. Does this server still want to attract new players is the question.

[strong yeet]

- Added the first 23 magical rods to the loot matrix. In keeping with D&D lore these powerful high level spell items do not require class or skill checks, and are open for universal use.

A mixture of single use and charged items, all of significant use to player characters.

If you are going to massively overhaul how class interactions work on a very fundamental level, it's probably best not to leave a significant part of it to "follow up." Not to mention when all mentions of the specifics are left vague and unknown. Much like this update, which revamped a significant part of player interaction (the thing we all log on for, at the end of the day) with only a warning similarly vague.

Why would you leave the notes and specifics of this update unreleased and unknown? What are these rods? What do they do?

If it's the same thing as before... if you planned to just add the same effects and ability to use "scrolls" back into the game under a layer of obfuscated RNG loot-chest irritation, why do it at all?

EDIT: I'm trying to be nice but it feels like the gravity of this change just isn't really understood or even cared about. You cannot do these things piecemeal and then not publish information about it. God forbid there be a "FOIG" policy on these things...

[Peppermint]

The problem with the "let this play out" attitude is that there are a ton of experienced players that already know how this will play out. These are the very same players that also warned against some of the other drastic changes (e.g. monk update*) that negatively impacted the server.

There seems to be this sense that "the devs know best" coupled with the idea that "it's impossible to know how mechanics play out".

But there are players here that have been active in the the Neverwinter Nights community since its release in 2002. And for those that have always put a priority on gameplay, that's seventeen years of mechanics experience. Dismissing their opinions out of hand is simply absurd.

The devs definitely do not know better. Some players definitely do.

(* Yes, I know that admins have previously stated that the monk update was vetted by Arelith's balance team. However, they are either lying or misinformed. Please don't make me dig up posts to prove this.)

[HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL]

If these new rods are exactly what the scrolls were, but not requiring UMD...

This only opens up stronger mundane builds to the field. Also, it adds more power grinding to the field.

Or a severe lack of interest and a sense of defeat as mundanes are now forced to endure RNG mechanics on a 20 year old game.

I sure hope they're not .5% drops. And not limited to 5 charges per.

Reading this update gives me flashbacks to EA pushing their best feature of a new game of theirs being that they don't have loot boxes.

[14All]

I want to playtest it with what's been added to the system, but I'm now unable to grind the loot matrix for the new rods without a full party because I can't use any of my scrolls saved for solo play. I'm actually assuming that I have to grind for these items now, because I don't know if they're anywhere else in crafting or shops. The fact that I'm being encouraged to mindlessly grind an area is a little boggling to me. I don't even have a rogue available, so it's not like I can pop the locks or traps to avoid chest-bashing in the first place.

I think that we should have the opportunity for two rebuilds: one right now, and another one when the patch notes are actually notes and we can make educated choices for our builds.

I'll take the dive and try to find some of these elusive rods!

[14All]

It's been 30 minutes, but with asking around and watching the player list I've been unable to find anybody able to both do the dungeons and open chests. I may have to resort to screaming "LOOKING FOR GROUP (NON-EVIL)" in a discord somewhere.

I'll ask very politely: may we please receive real patch notes covering what the new rods and single-use items advertised in the announcement thread are?

EDIT: I'm also stuck on my leveling process and all of the builders I can still contact don't know what to advise me. I'm unable to take Lore and UMD without sacrificing my points in Heal, Concentration and Taunt. I also considered taking 1pt each in Disable Trap and Open Lock to try and manage this on my own. It's a bard/paladin. Can build-savvies message me real quick if they think they can help?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I for longest time hated umd meta, and still disagree with some of the philosophies, but came to appreciate it due not only fundamental mechanics, which may all get changed soon, but also our rp/pvp etiquette.

The best way to kill an all powerful wizard in a more "thematic world" is in his sleep. The whole cut a wizard off before he can mutter a word is not possible on Arelith


I feel it would much more than mechanic overhauls to keep wizards thematic without breaking the game.

Stuff like people suggest to discourage skill dump in disicipline (but the plus 1 on uni saves might also need stop stacking if that happened, it becomes a huge back and forth balancing mess) the current balance is everyone potentially plays like a wizard with umd and all martial typrs aim for certain ab/ac goals.

I feel if we wanted to throw that out the window, we would have to abandon traditional head on pvp after rp which currently works well to our umd counter spell meta play allowing players to have interesting back and forth reaction play.

I feel to do such would require massive overhauls. Like murder hobos being a real thing (to allow us to sneak up to wizards), but becoming/unplayable/ostricized/etc for their actions. (unfun etique being punished IC) Blatant evil things changing one's alignment and allowing detect evil to be not be will based so paladins can actaully hunt evil doers down. (Being a murder hobo would push one evil reallly fast)

The server never wanted it to be like that and thus meta naturally evolved from pvp after rp conflicts, I feel they both have to be thrown out the window together to be done properly. And i dont think we want that kind of chaos. (Some days i might lol; id find it interesting, I know lots would not though)


That being said, most great passionate good story telling dms will need to experience things before making a call.

Its the nature of the beast. We can't over stiffle DM creativity. And yes, this thing happens in pnp DnD all the time.

[Wrips]

A level 30 warrior should be as "all powerful" as a level 30 mage, albeit in different ways. This argument about godlike wizards to whom everyone must bow to needs to die.

[susitsu]

Okay, so I completely rescind what I said earlier. I’m confused, how does...this:

“3) They have enough Lore to beat a check based on the spell's innate level that allows them to circumvent any limitations”

Translate to an 80 lore requirement for a ninth level scroll? I need to read more carefully. These are some wild numbers. Try like 19 lore to be realistic.

[-stick-]

What's the big deal about no umd
You get a rebuild
You still get wands and potions so just pickup some lore

And live without time stop

You can use breach and and true seeing without scrolls or wands pluse there's the new loot rods

[Subutai]

What's the big deal about no umd
You get a rebuild
You still get wands and potions so just pickup some lore

And live without time stop

You can use breach and and true seeing without scrolls or wands pluse there's the new loot rods

You can't use Word of Faith or Mord's, for one, both of which are absolutely necessary to combat casters. True seeing can't be wanded, and only Lesser Spell Breach can be.

As for "pick up some Lore", it isn't some. To be able to use even Word of Faith (to say nothing of Mord's), you'd need 50 Lore. That means maxing out Lore to 33, and then somehow getting an additional 17 Lore. If you assume the average mundane has +2 Int, That's 35, so they have to get 15 Lore across items (which will take at least 3 slots and fill them with otherwise garbage equipment that just gives Lore), and still you'd have no way to breach SR or any buffs, because you need a whopping 80 Lore for that, which is mostly at a level reserved for casters.

No UMD is a really big deal.