Arelith

Posted: **Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:44 am**

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:55 am I don't have the numbers but I'll say this. If you can have 100 heal spells on a button with no cooldown why would you NOT do it?

I'm concerned at this point because it's almost like asking: "Well if there's an exploit that hasn't been fixed yet why WOULDN'T you abuse it?"

I'm stunned that it even needs to be asked.

The answer is simple: because in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases you don't need 100 heal potions in pvp. You don't even need 5. I don't think I've drank more than 15 heal potions in total, on all characters, in my 3000 hours just on EE alone.

It's the same reason that every single character isn't a ranger/monk quarterstaff meta l33t pwnz0r build.

Not everyone is so pathologically concerned with winning so bad that they carry half a million gold in healing and mash F1 until the print has worn off at the first sign of trouble.

If this meta was so outrageously strong and ubiquitous across all pvp why aren't we seeing back to back to back 60 minute fights where the combatants consume 50 heals in high profile tournaments happening regularly across Arelith while the stadium slowly files out trying to mask their yawns?

At some point I have to wonder if we're just chasing our tails trying to squash some tiny, barely occurring niche scenarios, that will never go away. They will never stop. It's never going to end because its not the potions, or the items, or the builds: it's people asking why not?

Arelith as a power sport playstyle. We can either chase the symptoms literally forever or start trying to deal with the disease.

Last - if we can say things like this on a persistent world roleplaying game:

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:15 pm If a character can't survive 30 seconds without constant back-to-back heals then they probably deserve to be worm food.

Then we should absolutely be able to say something like this: If you can't kill people because they're healing while flat-footed, provoking endless aoos, all while not dishing out any of their own damage, then git gud on your RP and make some friends and try again with some more damage output. If nobody is interested in your pvp then you don't deserve to be doing it anyway.

Posted: **Sun Oct 25, 2020 12:05 pm**

Skibbles wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:44 am
NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 11:55 am I don't have the numbers but I'll say this. If you can have 100 heal spells on a button with no cooldown why would you NOT do it?
I'm concerned at this point because it's almost like asking: "Well if there's an exploit that hasn't been fixed yet why WOULDN'T you abuse it?"

I'm stunned that it even needs to be asked.

The answer is simple: because in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases you don't need 100 heal potions in pvp. You don't even need 5. I don't think I've drank more than 15 heal potions in total, on all characters, in my 3000 hours just on EE alone.

It's the same reason that every single character isn't a ranger/monk quarterstaff meta l33t pwnz0r build.

Not everyone is so pathologically concerned with winning so bad that they carry half a million gold in healing and mash F1 until the print has worn off at the first sign of trouble.

If this meta was so outrageously strong and ubiquitous across all pvp why aren't we seeing back to back to back 60 minute fights where the combatants consume 50 heals in high profile tournaments happening regularly across Arelith while the stadium slowly files out trying to mask their yawns?

At some point I have to wonder if we're just chasing our tails trying to squash some tiny, barely occurring niche scenarios, that will never go away. They will never stop. It's never going to end because its not the potions, or the items, or the builds: it's people asking why not?

Arelith as a power sport playstyle. We can either chase the symptoms literally forever or start trying to deal with the disease.

Last - if we can say things like this on a persistent world roleplaying game:

NPC Logger Number 2 wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 1:15 pm If a character can't survive 30 seconds without constant back-to-back heals then they probably deserve to be worm food.
Then we should absolutely be able to say something like this: If you can't kill people because they're healing while flat-footed, provoking endless aoos, all while not dishing out any of their own damage, then git gud on your RP and make some friends and try again with some more damage output. If nobody is interested in your pvp then you don't deserve to be doing it anyway.

Equating putting a stack of potions on your hotbar to an exploit is dishonest. This isn't some thing only a few people know about, anyone can put a stack of heal pots on their hotbar, the only barrier to entry is gold. Having a bunch of gold shouldn't enable you to have 100 casts of a level 6 spell that you can literally stand there and spam until a sorcerer runs out of spell slots to attack you with.

I'm not going to ask every other player to play badly and not make use of mechanical advantages available to them and I'm not going to sit here and insult them and act like they are lesser role players because they buy a stack of heal pots. I'm just saying heal pots themselves are too strong and that they give veteran players or players with a ton of disposable gold a seriously unfair advantage that also breaks immersion and makes no sense RP wise.

I will double down and stand by my statement, if you can't survive 30 seconds without spamming heal pots, you deserve to be sitting in the fugue. I also don't care if someone is "interested in my PVP" because if they give me an IC reason they're going to PVP me whether they want to or not. The notion that you can just ignore PVP and the consequences of it because you don't like it is wrong and will get you slapped with a MOD. I really think your issues in this thread are not with heal potions but PVP itself. You want less PVP and more quality story-telling RP? I bet a lot of these veteran players will be less quick to start PVP if they can't spam back-to-back heals to win PVP encounters against younger characters with better builds.

Posted: **Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:20 pm**

Skibbles wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:44 amThe answer is simple: because in the vast, vast, vast majority of cases you don't need 100 heal potions in pvp. You don't even need 5. I don't think I've drank more than 15 heal potions in total, on all characters, in my 3000 hours just on EE alone.

i love you but no you're the weird one for this

sorry fremd

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2020 12:54 pm**

My epic characters all have a decent stack of Heal potions on a hotkey.

I almost NEVER use them, even when I probably should. Why? Because when I end up in PvP I tend to forget about them and smash people or blow them up or whatever.

I think most people are like this. However, some people are very methodical in PvP and could certainly be apt to chug a bunch of them.

Personally I like the Cool Down idea. Maybe not 30 seconds, maybe more like 6 or 9 seconds.

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:12 pm**

I can safely say I always carry dozens, and often between 100 and 200, heal pots on all of my characters, and I use them regularly. I've had PvP instances where I downed fifteen or twenty easily (often to avoid dying to cheesy IGMS spams), and occasionally I use one when PvE somehow goes bad, often due to NWN's wonkiness or things like double-spawns, dragon wing spam, unlucky rolls, etc.

I am not fond of the cooldown suggestion, as it will absolutely drastically change PvP on Arelith (and it'll shorten PvP duration even more, something nobody really likes, I think). I am much more in favour of its effect diminishing based on usage frequency, like others have proposed here before.

One thing to note is that if we decide on nerfing heal potions substantially enough, we might want to have look at IGMS as well, indeed. I'm not saying IGMS should definitely be nerfed if heal potions are made worse, but heal potions are, in many situations, the way to survive focused IGMS spams.

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:34 pm**

Isn't IGMS spam one of the few tried and true ways of making casters viable?

You take away IGMS, do they lob WoBs and pray? Casters can't attack saves reliably these days. I feel like they have few options.

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:47 pm**

I've had PvP instances where I downed fifteen or twenty easily (often to avoid dying to cheesy IGMS spams).

At what point does drinking 15-20 potions in a row become the solution to cheese and not part of the problem?

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:03 pm**

the grim yeeter wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:12 pm I can safely say I always carry dozens, and often between 100 and 200, heal pots on all of my characters, and I use them regularly. I've had PvP instances where I downed fifteen or twenty easily (often to avoid dying to cheesy IGMS spams), and occasionally I use one when PvE somehow goes bad, often due to NWN's wonkiness or things like double-spawns, dragon wing spam, unlucky rolls, etc.

I am not fond of the cooldown suggestion. I am much more in favour of its effect diminishing based on usage frequency, like others have proposed here before.

One thing to note is that if we decide on nerfing heal potions substantially enough, we might want to have look at IGMS as well, indeed. I'm not saying IGMS should definitely be nerfed if heal potions are made worse, but heal potions are, in many situations, the way to survive focused IGMS spams.

I too carry a lot of heal pots. I take 19 herbalism on almost any character because why the heck not, I can still master another trade while never depending on my gold income or other people to amass heal pots. Disclaimer: I'm a casual inconsistant player that doesnt get to more than 1-2 milion bank account even on my long lasting characters who had shops.

I said earlier in the thread that I dont understand what this planned nerf is supposed to accomplish, but one thing I can see clearly and I agree with you, is mage/warlock damage-per-round, especially evocation combos of hellball + GR and IGMS. I also happen to play sorcerers with such evocation combos every once in a while since I fell I love with the class in 2012 more or less. Since the nerf to time stop, sorcerer really needed help in pvp so if anything, at least Heal pot nerf would help there. That said, I do agree with you that it can be dangerous and needs to be watched as the nerf takes place.

Posted: **Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:11 pm**

Rasha wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 2:47 pm At what point does drinking 15-20 potions in a row become the solution to cheese and not part of the problem?

Don't get me wrong, I do consider the way heal potions work currently is a problem. I just think, with the way IGMS spam can be done (among other things), it might be a necessary problem.

In other words, all I'm saying is that if we decide to tackle the heal potion problem (which we probably should, indeed), we need to keep in mind the strategies to which, currently, heal potions are the best (and sometimes even only) answer.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:01 am**

the grim yeeter wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:11 pm Don't get me wrong, I do consider the way heal potions work currently is a problem. I just think, with the way IGMS spam can be done (among other things), it might be a necessary problem.

IGMS already has non-heal pot spamming counterplay

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:08 am**

NauVaseline wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 10:01 am
the grim yeeter wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 3:11 pm Don't get me wrong, I do consider the way heal potions work currently is a problem. I just think, with the way IGMS spam can be done (among other things), it might be a necessary problem.
IGMS already has non-heal pot spamming counterplay

Not by a mundane class.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:31 am**

Zaphiel wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:08 am Not by a mundane class.

Sounds like a rock meeting paper?

For real though, do the cons of mundane's not having IGMS counterplay outweigh the cons of allowing heal pot spamming? I personally do not think so, but perhaps others do. If it is a big issue, alternative defenses to mundane's can be offered - and I think the strength based feats being proposed right now would be a good spot to introduce them in

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:28 pm**

You can avoid IGMS with.

LoS.
Hips.
Greater focus abjuration and shield spell.
Silence spell.
Spell mantle.

Maybe even a few more ways that i just dont know.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:33 pm**

With the lore change EVERY mundane that invests into lore can counter it with spell mantle scrolls.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:38 pm**

Nope, a mundane can't keep up his mantle while mage can have lesser breach, greater breach, mordenkainen. And those castings will take half-round while you need more than 1 round to use scroll.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:27 pm**

Think you can wand lesser mantle

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:29 pm**

Thats still a round however. Not hasted casting.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:10 pm**

Nobs wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:28 pm You can avoid IGMS with.

LoS.
Hips.
Greater focus abjuration and shield spell.
Silence spell.
Spell mantle.

Maybe even a few more ways that i just dont know.

Aside from the valid arguments provided by Zaphiel and preggy, listing these "counters" simply makes no sense in the first place anyway. You're describing things that are either only acquirable by specific builds, are only very situationally feasible options, or are counters to spellcasting in general (and not IGMS specifically). We might as well give these arguments in any discussion on nerfing a potentially too powerful offensive spell.

Nobs wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:28 pm LoS.

Ah, yes. Of course. Let me quickly sprint to the nearest point where I can break LoS when I (manage to) spot "Hasted Peter is casting Isaac's Greater Missile Storm" in the combat log.

Nobs wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:28 pm Hips.

This is a very specific feat only available to specific builds. "You want to counter IGMS? Better make sure you have 5 SD levels or 16 Ranger levels, dude!"

Nobs wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:28 pm Greater focus abjuration and shield spell.

Zaphiel already explained there are plenty of builds that cannot get the gsf: abj feat.

Nobs wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:28 pm Silence spell.

Assuming you mean the aura when cast on self or ally (as targetting an enemy caster with it is pointless: they'll resist the save easily), it requires you to be in range. Huge assumption. By the time you've reacted with a silence wand on yourself and you've finally reached them, a mage could've landed 3 or 4 IGMSes easily, depending on their initial distance (which a good player mage will keep as big as possible)

Nobs wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 12:28 pm Spell mantle.

See arguments given by Zaphiel and preggy.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:12 pm**

Hey feel free to not use any of the tips

But so say heal pots are fine as is cous of IGMS spam is just....you know...

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:13 pm**

Nobody said that.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:54 pm**

Where is the counter play for the wizard who just emptied his spellbook into a potion stack? Melee can already -pray if they fail on a 5% save. They can also cast greater restoration, which already has a cooldown.

The same wizard can die in 5 seconds to an archer or a weapon master. Healing potions would not save him.

Why should there be an answer to every situation? Where is the balance?

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 4:23 pm**

Rasha wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:54 pm Why should there be an answer to every situation? Where is the balance?

The beautiful paradox that is these two questions.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:45 pm**

If you have a weakness and someone uses that weakness against you, you should actually lose and not be able to magically press your "Neverdie" button fifteen times in a row. People have listed in this thread a bunch of counters to having IGMS spammed on you.

Here's a situation. How is a wizard supposed to stop a paladin with a rogue dip? Most take gsf abj so they have access to shield for IGMS immunity. Have massive saves with evasion so most spells don't do any damage to them at all and have a chest piece that has WoF on it so they can dispel most summoned monsters without even requiring a lore investment. They have +5 weapons which pierce DR and that same weapon also has dispel on hit. They can also crank their AC to around 60+ self buffed pretty easily with unbreachable buffs all that while being able to chug 50 healing potions in a row.

There's a reason people say wizards are in a bad place. IGMS in the end is just a damage ability. Just like an arcane archer popping you in the head with 6 APR 100 damage crit arrows that pierce stoneskin but also cannot have their damage completely canceled out by taking a two feat investment and drinking a shield potion.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:26 pm**

Rasha wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 5:45 pm Here's a situation. How is a wizard supposed to stop a paladin with a rogue dip? Most take gsf abj so they have access to shield for IGMS immunity. Have massive saves with evasion so most spells don't do any damage to them at all and have a chest piece that has WoF on it so they can dispel most summoned monsters without even requiring a lore investment. They have +5 weapons which pierce DR and that same weapon also has dispel on hit. They can also crank their AC to around 60+ self buffed pretty easily with unbreachable buffs all that while being able to chug 50 healing potions in a row.

In this scenario, it's the wizard's responsibility to take advantage of the long wind up a paladin has. Before a paladin can dispel on hit, deal a lot of damage and have a lot of ac/ab they need to stand and cast spells for good 30-60 seconds. And a character that needs to spam Heal potion to survive a fight is not dealing damage either in that time, they are at permanent disadvantage if they need to do that. That said, against casters specifically, it is not as much disadvantage because the caster has finite amount of damage in a battle.

Posted: **Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:54 pm**

NauVaseline wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:31 am
Zaphiel wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 11:08 am Not by a mundane class.
Sounds like a rock meeting paper?

For real though, do the cons of mundane's not having IGMS counterplay outweigh the cons of allowing heal pot spamming? I personally do not think so, but perhaps others do. If it is a big issue, alternative defenses to mundane's can be offered - and I think the strength based feats being proposed right now would be a good spot to introduce them in

Man, I like you.

Arelith

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