Arelith

With the previous system, neither was at fault, really. You had to kill them to get your stuff back, as has been mentioned, and the window to do so was very small. running away also made sense given that reality. Its a lot of rehashing for a dynamic that's been changed, though.

Baseili wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:43 pm That leads back to my initial question, how is a thief suppose to act?

Well, if the pickpocket player can't come up with an answer that question,
THEY SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING SUCH CHARACTER IN THE FIRST PLACE

-XXX- wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 5:48 am

Baseili wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:43 pm That leads back to my initial question, how is a thief suppose to act?

Well, if the pickpocket player can't come up with an answer that question,
THEY SHOULD NOT BE PLAYING SUCH CHARACTER IN THE FIRST PLACE

They can learn to trial and error.

Wow that one comment really launched quite a back and forth.

First I'd like to say that, personally (and I don't have a huge number of experiences with pickpockets), the most I've done to a pickpocket was Flesh to Stone for whatever duration it lasts after a blade orb paralyzed them. This was in Andunor, for which I'd expect more draconian treatment for most crime - as well the only law in the city is generally might makes right anyway. The notion someone should face an RPR reduction for enacting vicious punishment for crime in the Underdark is not something I'd shy away from debating.

Notwithstanding that even in reality the punishment for even petty thievery can drastically vary between countries, periods of time, or both.

I did get PPd daily, many years ago, by an ally that emoted it, even publicly, many times. I had no spot and so for the most part it was just a daily thing that was impossible to prevent. I never punished the character or the player, because I never caught them, but it was generally quite painful (having lost a huge stack of rubies once) and so that's why I have a great preference for the current system over the old as a little gold daily (worst case scenario) is better than potentially hundreds of thousands of gold in one lucky snatch.

All this aside I think where the real issue is, and why there's such a heated back and forth, is that there's mechanical petty crime - but no mechanical petty law.

There's absolutely no way to enforce laws (beyond our imaginations) that doesn't come down to murder or exile, the latter of which comparatively few characters have the power of, which I suspect is why the former is so frequently employed.

In summary I think that the inability to mechanically match the punishment with the crime will naturally lead to what I posited almost two pages ago - that the risk of thievery usually carries the maximum 'sentence' of death.

Edit: To expand on the immediate above - you can't enslave someone who doesn't want to be enslaved, you can't fine someone who doesn't want to be fined, you can't imprison someone who doesn't want to be imprisoned, but you can kill someone who doesn't want to be killed.

Therefore I think it might be prudent to at least entertain the idea that a rudimentary legal system beyond the extremes of death and/or exile be introduced. If we can trust anyone that dumped points into PP, I think we can probably trust people to utilize a simple legal system such as jail time or fines provided there are equal restrictions and accountability.

I'm overall cautiously optimistic about this update. I don't think its the answer but I think its an improvement over what we had before.

But I can't not point out that people saying PC's have millions of gold on them in their inventory are being a little unfair. In real life my house doesn't restrict me to storing exactly 20 items, in 'real forgotten realms' I have a great many ways to store items that don't exist in Arelith. Players keeping it all in their inventory isn't players being frivolous with their wealth and thus making them good targets its players accepting a suspension of disbelief because the game engine, dev time and server resources are limited.

Not really a complaint, I just think its unfair to use that as a reason for anything beyond what it is.

My PC might be carrying 100's of potions and 100's of scrolls but that because my PC doesn't have many other options.


As for the RP interactions around thieving. From my own point of view, even playing a CE character that would very much respond with arbitrary violence to a thief, if they put some effort into it I'd quite like to, and would, bend the characters response to be accommodating and not just kill then. But that's the point I suppose, the onus has to be on the person initiating the theft. It's RP you force onto the other character so the initiator should be, I believe, held to the higher standard.

Yes it wont always go well for you and some people might mindlessly auto attack you, but that's kind of the cost of playing that character and if you think that's unfair, at least until there is a culture shift, you might want to look at a different concept.

Lastly, I do find in Arelith with skills you quickly get into 0 failure modes. If I build a character around sleight of hand, just like a number of other skills, I can build it so that you, unless you built the counter, have 0 chance of spotting me. Even with the -command addition. If I raise my sleight of hand to 70, unless spotting things is one of your few best skills in life you will never spot me. Similarly, that 70 sleight of hand person will never PP the dedicated spotter class that is built and geared for spotting. I don't know the answer to this, but it feels like a system that could be better.

Trial and error implies there is a right way to be discovered, yet this thread has highlighted that no right way exists in the community's eyes. In fact the only consistant reply has been "don't play one" in various forms which is simply awful for a server maintained by creativity.

Laws differ between settlements, true enough, however we do have the overarching server rules and to give thieves an actual chance I believe it should be removed as a PvP action, if only to give a bit of breathing room instead of "hostile, dead". A pickpocket may actually stick around if they know they arent going to be put to death instantly.

Baseili wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:46 am Laws differ between settlements, true enough, however we do have the overarching server rules and to give thieves an actual chance I believe it should be removed as a PvP action, if only to give a bit of breathing room instead of "hostile, dead". A pickpocket may actually stick around if they know they arent going to be put to death instantly.

So what about adding another mechanical way to get your things back? Allow command to take your gold back from someone. Maybe a single chance within an in game hour to try and find and take back your pouch, and if you guessed wrong that's it. It should give a warning the same as pick pocket, so if you call out the wrong person to get your things back you can get called out yourself.

Or better lets add non-lethal mugging to the mix. Simply give an option to take all of the coins off of someone beaten down in subdual more. Give a little pop up over the head like activating defensive stance used to, someone takes the coin pouch off of x.

I like that idea , could work to get your gold back from the pickpocket aswel with out the need to kill the thief right away.

Baseili wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:43 pm That leads back to my initial question, how is a thief suppose to act?

Simply, they need to make pick pocketing attempts a fun encounter. If i'm going to be inconvenienced with a loss of items/gold then I should atleast get some fun RP out of it. No one is happy when they get spanked in PvP when it has no RP beforehand, why accept this for pick pocketing?

If the plan is to just rely on mechanically beating everyone and then dispearing into the night, what's the point? Hopefully the new changes lead to thieves guilds moderating their own and we see some new avenues of roleplay with the new observe system.

Interesting idea, though I suspect that should be the driving force behind tracking down the thief via characters (guards, trackers, investigators) rather than mechanics. Its no secret that people delve hard into the mechanics enough already to win without another being added.

How can you make it fun? Can you give an example or scenario, bonus if its not heavily skewed one way or the other.

Baseili wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:29 am How can you make it fun? Can you give an example or scenario, bonus if its not heavily skewed one way or the other.

A honeypot at a bar, swarmed by beggers in a alleyway, a handsy drunk, a mummers show with someone working the crowd. I'd think the list is endless - anything that creates a memorable encounter and with the new bluff abilities doing stuff like this is even easier to get away with.

Reading through the thread a second time I'm left trying to privately consider what the ideal pickpocket encounter would be, from start to finish, and how future encounters would be with that character.

I'm admittedly facing some difficulty in imagining these scenarios.

I don't mean this from some spiteful notion of needing my characters stuff, but from the simple fact that it seems incredibly difficult to imagine future positive scenarios emerging from a strongly negative first impression - I would think most people can agree the result of a bad first impression is the likelihood you don't get a favorable second impression.

To know that the majority of most active characters can regularly slay dragons, or cast apocalyptic spells, or plan (or fight against) world domination, and even a 'commoner' is going to be capable of forging legendary weapons and armor - the encouraged presence of such a simple and petty act of cutpursing seems so comparably out of sync with the rest of the world to feel somewhat jarring in its lowly mundanity.

Many in this thread expect some 'good RP' out of it but I haven't seen any actual examples made yet - and further, how this ideal example can be generally applied to enough scenarios to justify the poorer outcomes that have become the expected norm.

The following is framed as a victim of pickpocketing, and assumes the thief put in due diligent effort:

Assuming the thievery is highly interactive, with all the bells and whistles, and assuming a pass of a spot check (already drastically narrowing the corridor of interaction) what then, really, besides 'give me my money back'?

The best I can think of would be something like, "Aha, I caught you, but you're pretty good. Maybe we should work together."

While that sounds good - it assumes my character not only isn't bothered by the morality, but also thinks such a skill has value in greater weight than the obvious impossibility to trust someone they just met, and thus I think the situation is far too niche to assume it will apply to more than only supremely rare moments.

So then taking a step further, assuming, generally, it's just too far out of the character's nature to react purely positively - what is the 'best' and most interesting constructive alternative RP, and why is it more interesting than other stories and characters one can invest limited time in?

Taking a moment to compare this skill to another and then asking the same: imagine a bard advertises a concert for a week, maybe attracts a dozen characters, and then at the moment the concert begin he taps Bardsong as the concert.

There's lead-up, role play, and everything there, but in the final moment I would be left with "okay...so what do I do with this exactly?"

That's how I kind of feel, though I understand it's not an exacting comparison.

It's all food for thought. Ultimately I think the new system, while it seems at first glance like it won't change much of the interactions, at least is vastly superior to the old.

However I would end on the idea that petty thief RP frankly just doesn't seem stimulating compared to a world of wizards, heroes, politics, intrigues, dungeons, and dragons.

Hobojoe wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 11:47 am A honeypot at a bar, swarmed by beggers in a alleyway, a handsy drunk, a mummers show with someone working the crowd. I'd think the list is endless - anything that creates a memorable encounter and with the new bluff abilities doing stuff like this is even easier to get away with.

Some good scenarios and set ups. To my mind a good pickpocket must have a clear reasoning, a drive behind why they want to steal be it under threat, hardship or thrill-seeking etc. Something that other characters can find a pattern or understanding in e.g. A thrill-seeker would go after the difficult marks, the desperate taking well-off or wealthy marks.
Most importantly, accept the loss. This honestly applies to everyone but is seldom done in my experience.

ok, so it looks like i'm not the only one here who thinks "well, how the heck is this supposed to be done in a way that's satisfying to everyone?" i think one of the issues is the sheer lack of control *either* character has over the situation. the pickpocket makes a check and gets something at random. completely random. "no, i wasn't trying to get your keys, or a few scrolls out of your case, there. i was literally just taking ANY random thing because i'm an epic pickpocket with unimaginable skill and prowess."

as the thief, how do you plan ahead for that? what reason is there to target an individual over another, why even use this skill (in this state) unless you know they're high level and have no spot? right now, it has nothing to do with reasons why a high level character might pick someone's pocket, and has everything to do with "satisfying the urge to pick a pocket in general." (necessary for the skill, but not particularly useful)

just floating this out there:

what would happen if we gave more control to the thief? let's say we gave our thieves a -pp command that allowed you to target keys or gold (without guaranteeing success on something like a "key", even with a successful roll). some further refinement in the command could let a thief target, say, guildhouse keys or maybe scrolls out of the scrollcase instead of simple gold.

now, i'm not going to go any further on details there, because i am not making a suggestion. i have ideas for a suggestion, but i'm not really wanting to put them out right now, especially since it would basically be *another* complete overhaul of the system before the dust has gotten a chance to settle, and... let's just not. this is a simple thought experiment. i will note that making keys easier to get (while fantastic for story, roleplay, and conflict) will make running a guildhouse an unbelievable nightmare, and isn't worth it, even if we flagged the keys as stolen and destroyed them on first use. that said,

i propose, that giving the thief that kind of control over what they're attempting to steal, creates more roleplay for the thief and the victim. this will create targets of pickpocketing that isn't based on level+spot skill, but on the character's involvement (whether as a guild member, a wand merchant, or what have you).

this idea (simply giving some control of the situation to at least one of the players involved) can at least pave the way for a better way to handle the situation in character. suddenly, someone stealing your gold isn't so bad, since you know he could have been aiming for your keys or your freshly crafted (or bought) wands. from the thief's perspective, they can try to steal *what they need* in the situation, rather than literally roll the dice, to roll the dice to get something that can make for better encounter than just "yep. got a few coins. yipee," which let's face it, isn't really conducive to interesting gameplay.

what does anyone else think? is there a way to make PP fun or useful in a way beyond petty theft?

The reality is, there need to be a mechanical penalty. A crime system if you will. You can't have a system that relies 100% on you not getting caught to work with RP. Its not gonna happen and from what I am reading they only remedies anyone has is to just kill them.

- If you can flag items as "stolen" and gold amounts on a character as stolen that is a start
- If a player is marked with crime points and they are killed/subdued, send them to a holding cell in the offending city. They can surrender as well.
- If they are found guilty, they go to jail, if not they are free to go.
- Times in jail should both IC, or if a player wants they can "talk to a guard" and get a pre determined number based on their crimes (this should be very harsh as you have pled guilty, as a player run court, you can plead you case. staving children or what not)
- You need jails with crappy tasks players have to do, over and over, to build points to be freed, with an option for escaping but this won't remove your crime stats. A lot of games do this now and it can't be a players choice. The server is very "a player has to agree to do X". Well, too bad. not in this case.
- NPC guard who break a disguise need to attempt to kill/arrest a criminal.
- gold amounts able to be stolen as I said in a previous post need to be calculated on a players total worth. How much, well devs can figure that.

The system outlined above is very harsh, But if you want to play in a way that can rip players off for lots of cash, with the push of a button, it needs to be a risk/reward system. They way it is now, I wouldn't risk (even IC) being killed or arrested for 3000 gold max. It's a pittance to be honest.

Actually an Arelith prison might be an interesting addition. Like a prison island surfacer law enforcement could send caught pickpockets etc to as punishment. Criminal PCs might want to be sent there because it's the perfect place to network and make contacts with other criminal types-- figuring out where to meet them now is one of the difficult parts of trying to do surface criminal RP. Throw in some prison writs and there you go. There could be the option to try and break free, or serve your time in which case you could ideally return to whatever settlement sent you there and be given a second chance.

The idea has been suggested before, and I'm not against it entirely. With all these things though, the balence is making the consquence (if forced) balence enough that it doesn't entirely ruin gameplay.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Justice

psst it's free mod ideas

The GrumpyCat wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:24 am The idea has been suggested before, and I'm not against it entirely. With all these things though, the balence is making the consquence (if forced) balence enough that it doesn't entirely ruin gameplay.

Take a look at some of the MMOs that do it. I think if done by the devs here these systems could be much better. Archage has a good system, it was just implemented poorly, the the concepts behind it were actually really good.

Not really pushing for it, just seemed like a cool idea. But, I would say if there was a prison system on Arelith the key would be making it fun so while the character may be doing time it's not a punishment for the player.

Ideally you'd want your criminal PC to do at least one stint in prison... You may even want a wrongly accused or infiltrating good character to do some time. So that would mean writs, maybe a unique black market, a way to escape and most of all prisoners would be able to meet and network. It could even be a starting area, for that matter.

Here's a thought:

Why not have a system that places completely arbitrary tokens onto players. Higher level, more valued players get more valuable items. These items don't even need to appear in the actual characters inventory, it would just be something added to their player tool/sheet/whatever to represent items/symbols etc.

There could be NPCs somewhere (in the sewers for example) that are constantly acting as fences for said items and will give gold/items/rewards etc.

There could be a level of randomization in the system (so for example daily, or weekly, the system could pick new higher value targets). So for example:

You go up to NPC Fence as a pickpocket, they say "Ooh been a surge in people looking for Llothite memorabilia" - For that day, the higher level Drow might offer better 'objects' to pickpocket that can be traded into the vendor.

The next day (or however long later, it might randomise and say) "Hmm, got someone looking for some Ogre *teeth/swag etc" - Then for that period, pick-pocketing higher ranking Ogres might offer more.

A system like that could be linked to say nobility, settlement leaders etc, to provide targets that are playing part in the 'pickpocket' game, but aren't actually losing anything in reality (although you could still have the current system as well..).

A system like this would solve varying problems -

1. It would provide constantly shifting 'marks' and targets and spread the pickpocket RP among different groups so one doesn't constantly get targeted.

2. It would provide danger/intrigue and effort into pick-pocketing. Knowledge would be powerful. You'd need to learn who the most important people were of a given race/church/part of the community. This would be constantly shifting, giving pickpockets things to log in and do, plot/plan for.

3. Because it's taking arbitrary 'tokens' essentially that do not in reality take anything from the player being pickpocketed, people don't need to react as heavily IC. Someone 'robbed' you, but they didn't take anything of value. So as an OOC player you don't feel so upset and RP is more likely to occur over simple kill bashing. Pickpockets still get their gold/items/experience from success and are more likely to get RP out of failure.

In effect player characters would be the moving/living targets, but all they are doing is making the act more fun than simply running up to an NPC and robbing it and taking part in the 'game' too.

Skibbles wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:14 pm two really good posts

I think this addresses the parts of my own misgivings about the system that I haven't quite managed to articulate yet very well, and I think encompasses my feelings about crime RP in general.

For me, it's not so much the incongruity of petty theft in an epic fantasy setting, which I generally don't mind.

It's that there's a very narrow range of responses to being crimed, and also that every single "got pickpocketed" plot follows basically the same script.

Regarding the responses:

Assuming that the thief was caught and confronted, and that he stopped to roleplay instead of going for a Benny Hill chase (a large assumption, but for the sake of the discussion, I'll go ahead and make it), the victim's responses are usually limited to one of:
a) kill the thief
b) exile
c) tell everyone about the theft and get the powers that be to exile them.
d) ask the thief to give stuff back, and if no, kill the thief
e) let the thief go.

C should be elaborated a little. As has been observed otherwise, mechanical exile is only available to a few people. If you don't have this power, you can go to the local authorities and tell them that Jim the Thief is a dirty thieving thief. This can pan out a couple of ways, but the usual way is for the authorities to confront the thief, and threaten the thief with exile or death if the thief refuses to pay a fine. It therefore becomes redundant with A and B, because it's ultimately the threat of the use of A or B that backs "tell everyone about the theft", it's just filtered a little to "get someone else to kill or exile".

D also bears at least a little elaboration. It includes not just naked requests to give the stuff back, but also requests like "hey, if you give it back I won't tell the guard" or "hey, I'll buy my stuff back from you" or "give the stuff back or go to jail" or "give the stuff back or pay a big ol fine". Ultimately, though, it amounts to a request for the thief to opt for a reward other than the stolen item (sometimes not dying is your reward for taking a risk and it not panning out), and when it works only does so because the alternatives a) and b) hanging in the background.

Therefore, it's probably pretty reasonable to characterize the range of available responses to theft as Skibbles has done. You've got kill, exile, or nothing. Kill and exile are admittedly fairly nuclear options when the matter at issue is 3k gold. But they're the only tools in the box, and we probably should not be either surprised or condemnatory when a player, even a player playing a "nicer" character resorts to one of the two. Option E should be regarded as a purely OOC response to getting stolen from and knowing who did it for the vast majority of characters.

CNS wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:28 am
As for the RP interactions around thieving. From my own point of view, even playing a CE character that would very much respond with arbitrary violence to a thief, if they put some effort into it I'd quite like to, and would, bend the characters response to be accommodating and not just kill then. But that's the point I suppose, the onus has to be on the person initiating the theft. It's RP you force onto the other character so the initiator should be, I believe, held to the higher standard.

Yes it wont always go well for you and some people might mindlessly auto attack you, but that's kind of the cost of playing that character and if you think that's unfair, at least until there is a culture shift, you might want to look at a different concept.

And I think this also articulates something I didn't quite express clearly earlier, but which I also feel is important. One of the big reasons I think people do go nuclear on thieves (and react so negatively both to pickpocket and quarter theft) is this question of narrative initiative. I can't really blame someone who gets wordlessly pickpocketed for also wordlessly killbashing the thief.

The thief had all the opportunity in the world to set up an engaging scenario, they hold all the narrative control when the pickpocket attempt begins. They choose how much roleplay to do beforehand, they choose whether to run or stay and play it out of things go south. They choose whether to give the items back when confronted.

If a thief has all this narrative control and still cannot be bothered to set up something that's more than the minimum required by the rules, I'm generally not too sorry to see them yote with as little consideration as they showed to begin with. It's not harshness, it's symmetry.

I actually really like the way this was set up, and I think it adds a completely new way to play the game to the server. The one thing I would say (forgive me if this is already true) is that you should make it break stealth. Pick pocket is an art based on distraction, its pretty hard to distract someone if they can't see you. And if they are not distracted, they are much more likely to feel you lifting their purse.

As for the whole interaction thing, I think you guys are way over thinking it. Some will be good, some will be meh, just like pvp. But its 3000 gold max lol.

imo just entirely refocus it onto npcs. give better and varied rewards depending on how hard it is to pickpocket them. for most grunts it wouldn't affect much, but bosses? dragons? named NPCs? give some treats

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 1:22 am But its 3000 gold max lol.

How many times does it have to be said that that is not the point?