Community and Cooperation; A lack thereof

[Echohawk]

If you put your nose into the face of a painting, you cannot see all the edges. You might not even get most of the image. This post may be vague and may be unhelpful.

People take this game, in my opinion, far too seriously. Slights against characters, holding settlement office, OOC into the IC, a lot of folks just keep on going like this is normal. When you go into any other game system, you won't find this level of depth, rules enforcement, or complexity, which is what makes it both daunting and immersive at the same time just as a gaming experience.

We can't expect people to all play on a fair playing field, people come to the game for their own reasons. Some want to dunk because of PVP, some value coin and holding onto things for real life years at a time. Some play for a few hours and then take to the forum with salt in hand, it doesn't ultimately matter. While feedback is great for those in the dev realm to make tangible changes a lot of folks spend a great deal of time debating it all to great length, and that in itself is great.

But to address the original point of a lack of trust, truly we all must find our own ways of letting go, and the only person we can control is ourselves. You could inspire your group of friends to go down a similar path, but they're going to continue to play for their own motivation. I don't have a lot of meaningful suggestions on that front since this really comes down to the player base doing their own part. The DMs, Admins, Mods can all help do guiding reform, rules, enforcement, but it's up to the players to enact. And having let go, I see a lot less issues than I did prior to a leave of absence I did not wish to disclose.

I say this not to tarnish or dissuade those who hold meaningful feedback and in depth conversations regarding the mechanics and contextual aspects of the server. But I close with, if you're only looking for the negative you will always find clouds even on the edge of the horizon, be mindful of the light too if you can.

[Flower Power]

what would fred rogers do

[godhand-]

I've been thoroughly enjoying this thread.... Possibly some of the more healthy discourse i've seen on the forums in a while - And i think that goes to say that things on arelith are better than the contents of said discourse itself suggests.

And there is one other thing i have learned from reading between the lines.... I am not convinced there is an "Arelith identity crisis".
In about a day or so since OP there are over 100 posts from people who all want MORE ROLE PLAY, people who love arelith and can't get enough of it, who more or less all want more systems in place to facilitate roleplay.

Yes there are different expectations that people have from the game but at the core of it all we want to rp, in one shape or form. And the fact we have this beautiful place where we can all get together and do what we want, and there is a niche to cater to you? Amazing.

[Zavandar]

Well, this thread certainly deteriorated as soon as people took the bait and started defining what is and what isn't good rp.

I don't think the thread has deteriorated. I've just asked for clarity on points that were already being discussed.

RP definitely matters on this server, and certainly more than "how mechanically powerful your character is, and how good you are at pvp, or how lucky you were to snag that premium piece of property that garners you instant respectability". I don't know what's given you the impression that it doesn't. Just look at the current settlement leaders. Most of them are not known for their building prowess, PvPing, and/or what properties they own. They're where they are because they RP.

Regarding this thread not being about the quality of RP:

This post pretty well sums up why I haven't considered Arelith to be a roleplay server for quite a while, now. However, I don't necessarily consider that to be a bad change.

If I were to recommend Arelith to someone a year and a half ago, I'd say it is a heavy RP server where you should always stay in character.

If I were to recommend Arelith to someone today, it'd say it is a little league MMO with RPG elements.

I agree Arelith has gotten more MMO like. RP-lite is a good way to describe it.

While I am in almost always in favour of higher RP standards, an issue arises: there are multiple standards.

When I think "Low RP" I think of World of Warcraft roleplay where all of it was literally just social RP because there wasn't an infrastructure in place for anything else.

Staying in Character is a very simple and easy rule, that the so called RP Lite servers fail at miserably. You can go log in and the right chat window is nothing but Shouts for " looking for a rogue level # meet at #" or the similar in a constant scroll. Players that want that Warcraft crap experience will always find their way to those places, where they can have wings and tails and jiggly bits or whatever.

The entire debate comes down to a choice between more heavy-RP focus or more players. The more the developers enforce heavy roleplay, the fewer players there will be. This isn't to say the server will be less fun, but it will be fun for a smaller niche of players. The question is whether you can sustain an adequate player base long-term if you choose the roleplay-heavy path. If you're not careful, you risk losing the playerbase and destroying the server.

I too would be hard pressed to advertise this server to anyone as a role play server. Its still plenty of fun or I wouldn't play here and I certainly wouldn't get into arguments about it, but it feels closer to WoW then D&D or even a traditional NwN roleplay server.

I've removed the poster's names because I don't want to send out a ton of notifications, but you'll notice I got them all from the first two pages. You'll notice one of them is yours, too. So when I ask what "heavy rp" means, it's because "heavy rp" has been referenced a lot already. When I ask how volunteer developers should be building systems to reward RP, it's because you said they should. Give the (I think fair) assumption that you don't want them to reward "bad" RP, I ask as well what "good" RP is. How else would they know what to reward?

Maybe you think this thread is "deteriorating" because it's very easy to slip into elitist thinking when having conversations like this. I don't seem to be alone in thinking that it's elitism that's driving many people in this thread, especially when you look at people denouncing "run-grinding" and other things like that. Even you talk about the "standard that people should strive to achieve", yet you try to separate this standard from the "quality" of RP. Does this imply there can be low quality but high standard RP? That seems weird.

When you peel these arguments down to their core, what you and many other people are saying is, "I don't think the RP here is very good."

[Dr. B]

The kind of "RP-heavy" concept people here are discussing is one that focuses more heavily on story and character elements (roleplaying) over game elements (killing things, farming resources and levelling up). Sure, they're not mutually exclusive, but it's not hard to discern that some people prioritize one over the other.

[Zavandar]

The kind of "RP-heavy" concept people here are discussing is one that focuses more heavily on story and character elements (roleplaying) over game elements (killing things, farming resources and levelling up). It's not a distinction between "good" and "bad" roleplay.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Dr. B]

Oh, how funny. Right before you posted that reply I edited my post with a follow up, touching on precisely that point.

[Zavandar]

Oh, how funny. Right before you posted that reply I edited my post with a follow up, touching on precisely that point.

This also implies that having any game element is antithetical to "heavy rp".

[Dr. B]

It doesn't imply that. Also, man, I'm not gonna do this with you. You're pretending to be oblivious to a distinction that no one here, including you, is oblivious to. So, I'm done with this before it starts.

[Zavandar]

It doesn't imply that. Also, man, I'm not gonna do this with you. You're pretending to be oblivious to a distinction that no one here, including you, is oblivious to. So, I'm done with this before it starts.

Talk about deteriorating.

Anyway, two definitions of "good" to go off of are:

to be desired or approved of.
and
having the qualities required for a particular role.

Let's look at "standard", too:

a level of quality or attainment.
and
used or accepted as normal or average.

I think a lot of people are trying to differentiate the two because one sounds less judge-y. You can also have a server that's fun to play on and fun to RP on. As I already said, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Being able to play a game and tell stories in the same medium is a good thing. I feel like the people that want this "heavy RP" they espouse would be better off on a MUD or something like that, or RPing on a forum.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

My post was also ignored. If a server is legitimately fun to play, it will have "MMO problems."

There are servers out there with very strict rules of conduct. Those servers tend to do very poorly because they are very No Fun Allowed and drive people off by policing RP too much.

Personally I'd rather Arelith be fun to play than solve imaginary "quality" problems.

[Duchess Says]

Irongron’s negative feedback loop quote really grabbed me. One thing that’s stuck me in the recent Discord debates, I’ve noticed official Arelith Discord channels tends to be more positive and feel more like a positive and vibrant community than the forums. Reading the forums feels like doom and gloom and that this community is a lot of people who just really don’t like each other. I think part of that is inherent to the medium… Discord messages are short and quick and conversational and forum posts can be a wall of one-sided text. So just because there’s a lot of negativity here doesn’t mean it’s pervasive in the game. The sky is always falling on the forums.

Anyway Arelith’s biggest problem, I believe, is simply its age. I don’t believe the quality of RP is any worse when it’s “on” and everyone involved is enthusiastic about a story but I do think players gradually have less and less patience with each other as they play for years and years. Getting burned a few times with no resolution, losing a beloved property to a mechanical flaw, players treating you unfairly for OOC reasons…This stuff builds up and hardens you and dampens your enthusiasm. As do things that are just boring to repeat over and over like putting a few hours into helping a level 3 character get started then you never see them again. These things are just part of Arelith life and I’m not bringing them up as problems to be fixed but rather expected and don't let them make you bitter. If things are to change here a lot of that has to come from long-time players dropping preconceived notions about what you can and can’t do, dropping long time grudges and bad associations with this player and that faction, and most of all making an effort to be interested in other players and what they have going on.

[The Rambling Midget]

When you peel these arguments down to their core, what you and many other people are saying is, "I don't think the RP here is very good."

You quoted me out of context, and clearly didn't read anything else that I wrote. The RP here is great. Why would I be wasting my time here, if it wasn't?

[Zavandar]

When you peel these arguments down to their core, what you and many other people are saying is, "I don't think the RP here is very good."

You quoted me out of context, and clearly didn't read anything else that I wrote. The RP here is great. Why would I be wasting my time here, if it wasn't?

Then I guess you're not one of the "many other people". Not everyone I quoted is one. I quoted people mentioning the quality of RP. I even quoted you saying you didn't think it was a bad change!

[Dr. B]

It doesn't imply that. Also, man, I'm not gonna do this with you. You're pretending to be oblivious to a distinction that no one here, including you, is oblivious to. So, I'm done with this before it starts.

Talk about deteriorating.

Well, you're trying to deny the existence of something that's patently obvious, which is frustrating.

The "RP-heavy" crowd wants you to play as if Arelith were real, and as if your characters were real. The focus is on immersion, and on being immersed in your character and the fictional game world. Sure, Arelith contains magic, deities, and different natural and physical laws. It's not realistic, in the sense that it does not follow the same rules as the real world. But you're supposed to pretend that it's real, because that's essentially what roleplaying is. You pretend you are your character, and try to make the latter as lifelike as possible. Now contrast things like magic and deities with something like experience points. Experience points aren't something that exists in the fictional universe of Arelith. Instead, they're a game mechanic. And so it makes things less immersive if your character is acting as if they were aware of them. So when people's characters run around in endless circles, killing things, they're doing so because the players are aware that experience points exist, and want to level their characters up. Sure, they can "stay in character" when they do this, but their behavior is not character-driven, it's driven by OOC knowledge about a game element that is not part of the fabric of the fictional reality they're playing in. Running around, killing things in an endless circle, is something a character might plausibly do, but if Arelith were real, probably not most characters would do it. This makes Arelith seem more like a game than an immersive but plausible alternative reality which, even if it's full of fantasy elements, contains psychologically believable characters whose behavior is driven by things in the world, and not by mechanical elements of the game.

Circlegrinding is just one example of how the server feels gamey rather than immersive for many people. If the fictional game world were real, people would not circlegrind.

Now, are the two mutually exclusive? No. There can be compelling IC reasons to go into a dungeon and kill monsters. When the majority of people are running around circlegrinding, however, that probably shows that IC considerations are not guiding the players' behavior.

[Zavandar]

It doesn't imply that. Also, man, I'm not gonna do this with you. You're pretending to be oblivious to a distinction that no one here, including you, is oblivious to. So, I'm done with this before it starts.

Talk about deteriorating.

Well, you're trying to deny the existence of something that's patently obvious, which is frustrating.

The "RP-heavy" crowd wants you to play as if Arelith were real, and as if your characters were real. The focus is on immersion, and on being immersed in your character and the fictional game world. Sure, Arelith contains magic, deities, and different natural and physical laws. It's not realistic, in the sense that it does not follow the same rules as the real world. But you're supposed to pretend that it's real, because that's essentially what roleplaying is. You pretend you are your character, and try to make the latter as lifelike as possible. Now contrast things like magic and deities with something like experience points. Experience points aren't something that exists in the fictional universe of Arelith. Instead, they're a game mechanic. And so it makes things less immersive if your character is acting as if they were aware of them. So when people's characters run around in endless circles, killing things, they're doing so because the players are aware that experience points exist, and want to level their characters up. Sure, they can "stay in character" when they do this, but their behavior is not character-driven, it's driven by OOC knowledge about a game element that is not part of the fabric of the fictional reality they're playing in. Running around, killing things in an endless circle, is something a character might plausibly do, but if Arelith were real, probably not most characters would do it. This makes Arelith seem more like a game than an immersive but plausible alternative reality which, even if it's full of fantasy elements, contains psychologically believable characters.

Circlegrinding is just one example of how the server feels gamey rather than immersive for many people. If the fictional game world were real, people would not circlegrind.

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but I can at least grasp this distinction between RP and game elements. It's not hard to do.

Now, are the two mutually exclusive? No. There can be compelling IC reasons to go into a dungeon and kill monsters. When the majority of people are running around circlegrinding, however, that probably shows that IC considerations are not guiding the players' behavior.

sometimes i run places irl

[Dr. B]

Yes, but see, I didn't use running as an example. I used circlegrinding. Do you circlegrind IRL Zav? Is there a cave or something that you go to where you endlessly butcher people, then immediately return to and endlessly butcher the same people, including their boss who mysteriously returned along with the rest of them?

[Zavandar]

Yes, but see, I didn't use running as an example. I used circlegrinding. Do you circlegrind IRL Zav? Is there a cave or something that you go to where you endlessly butcher people, then immediately return to and endlessly butcher the same people, including their boss who mysteriously returned along with the rest of them?

if i had 26 con irl hell yeah i would

[Dr. B]

Okay? Are there caves in real life where the same people keep springing up over and over again? The entire reason monsters respawn in Arelith is because it's a game. Dungeons need to be reset so other players can go enjoy them. It's not something that typically happens in the Forgotten Realms. It's a limitation of this being a game. And so, when people circlegrind, they're interacting with the game elements rather than the fictional setting.

[Zavandar]

Okay? Are there caves in real life where the same people keep springing up over and over again? The entire reason monsters respawn in Arelith is because it's a game. Dungeons need to be reset so other players can go enjoy them. It's not something that typically happens in the Forgotten Realms. It's a limitation of this being a game. And so, when people circlegrind, they're interacting with the game elements rather than the fictional setting.

So are you saying things respawning is antithetical to heavy rp? Because let me tell you, they always have!

[Dr. B]

I don't really feel that strongly about the debate, but I at least grasp the distinction people are drawing (as do you; I'm just having this debate to shed light on how threadbare your attempt to deny the distinction really is).

Things have always respawned, but that's because Arelith has always been a game, and respawning is necessary for people to be able to play it. Its primary purpose, I take it, is so that other people can visit a dungeon after you and your party have left. So it's first and foremost intended as a necessity of the game, not a feature of the setting. Circlegrinding takes advantage of this game element. When you utilize endlessly respawning monsters, you're interacting with Arelith as a game rather than as a setting.

[Zavandar]

I don't really feel that strongly about the debate, but I at least grasp the distinction people are drawing (as do you; I'm just having this debate to shed light on how threadbare your attempt to deny the distinction really is).

Things have always respawned, but that's because Arelith has always been a game, and respawning is necessary for people to be able to play it. Its primary purpose, I take it, is so that other people can visit a dungeon after you and your party have left. So it's first and foremost intended as a necessity of the game, not a feature of the setting. Circlegrinding takes advantage of this game element. When you utilize endlessly respawning monsters, you're interacting with Arelith as a game rather than as a setting.

I don't think you're being as successful as you think you are. People are saying that Arelith has changed, but you're pointing out elements that have always existed. So? This isn't the "problem".

[Dr. B]

People are saying the culture of the server has changed. They're not saying the presence of respawning mobs has changed. A thing can change in one respect but not others, and people can claim that a thing has changed in one respect but not others.

[Zavandar]

People are saying the culture of the server has changed. They're not saying the presence of respawning mobs has changed. A thing can change in one respect but not others, and people can claim that a thing has changed in one respect but not others.

But this phenomenon, which has always existed, cannot be responsible for the culture change because it has always existed.