Arelith

Love the change, finally a use for the trash runics.

This definitely needs more variety of items so people will have a better time buffing their pocket monster of choice.

Perhaps also add special craftables for classes that are specialized to use companions, like druid/ranger, warlock and palemaster?

Babylon System is the Vampire wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 10:21 am 5) The warlock changes were when I started to lose interest in keeping up with every class and their strengths and weaknesses, so I can't speak much on them. Eldritch blast is the king of all spamable damage spells though, and you have access to the same tricks arcane casters do too, so they should be fine.

I can address this part at least. If you are a Warlock built for Eldritch Summon, you're unlikely to have a good Eldritch Blast since they have differing stat requirements and both eat a good number of limited class feats.

I'd disagree that Warlocks have access to all the same tricks as other arcane casters too, as the lack of Epic Spell Focus and lower overall spell level of their bread-and-butter spells means that their spell save DCs lag behind somewhat. You can build a warlock to be good at a trick or two that synergises with your pact, but those tricks by themselves can't replace the summon's function as a big chunk of HP and AC standing between you and the enemies that succeed their saves.

this is going to make levelling way more tedious (not difficult, just tedious) for new casters - and especially new players who don't have ooc friends.

this update has an obscene disconnect between minmaxed level 30s and new players who aren't familiar with crafting mechanics. planar conduit remains obscenely powerful, which was the main crux of the conj complaints - the ease-of-levelling for conjuration-based casters was heavily balanced by its weakness in PvP situations where a single player with a word of faith or banishment scroll can shut down half a cleric/wizard's spellbook

I really do not understand how people are getting by saying that removing summons and summon buffing is going to "Open up spells for Healer Clerics."

All of my spells are healing spells and buff spells. Removing the ability to buff my summons is not going to free up spells. I'm just going to keep having spells prepared to buff party members, or be forced to slot -more- summon spells to keep repeatedly replacing the summons I lose.

This change literally changes nothing for support style healer clerics, outside of adding chore work and a cost to doing anything alone. If these consumable items were simply added, as an optional choice to give people options to get access to spell buffs they normally wouldn't, I doubt it'd be a problem. However outright removing the ability to buff your own summons then dropping this at the same time, feels like it's sending the wrong message to me.

Further all my "Caster" spells are all things like Sunfire, Undeath to death, sunburst, and "heal". One of which is just a domain power.

All of which immediately draw aggro onto me 25 AC healer cleric, and end up with me being stomped by most mobs, or simply do not work on anything outside of undead.

We also do not get infinite cast "Caster" spells as healer clerics, we have a set amount of spells before we're basically SoL, because our summons are now borderline useless. Our only refund spells are specifically only for healing spells. And the only one that reliably actually works is if you have the heal domain and have cure moderate wounds at level 1 and get a 100% refund on it.

If a few summons were "Out of line" it would have been far better of a change to reduce the power of those specific summons, than nuke summons from orbit across the board.

*wizard cries in greater conjuration focus at level 1*

Any way a dm can help me relevel my character , i rather pick something els then gsf conjuration at level 1.
If this is not possible thats fine i wil just delete the toon and make something els.

While I never played a summoner, I understand the frustration with this change.

The vast majority of the playerbase seems to agree with the notion that summons were overtuned prior to the change. I agree with this as well. Summoning was just too powerful, people were in a position to solo endgame things with 0 risk using them, and a change was required to dial their power down a bit.

This change however is very drastic and punishes players too much, especially in the low lvls

Worse yet, its not conceptually sound. Why would anyone be unable to casts spells on their summon? Its their summon, they can do as they please with it!

I believe summons should be nerfed individually, and not like this. People should be able to buff their summons and feed potions to their summons

Sequencer spells should somehow be made to all last a specific amount of time (10 hours?). Good points brought up about the varying duration of spells like shield. It would alleviate a lot of frustration in burning a charge or a sequencer every 5 minutes since shield ran out. A lot of the spells are also very vulnerable to breach and since you can't overload your summon with breachable spells to maybe save their mage armor, that vulnerability is hopefully considered as well.

Doesn't this just bring summons and summoners more in line with most other classes without summons?
Last time I played a summoner I could literally solo all content up to epic, without pretty much spending any bit of gold save for a couple of buffs that my build didn't have.

Most other classes need to heavily invest in gear and consumables to be able to do this. Other classes have it even worse as even with that it is even harder to do much solo (see rogues).

Other than that, I agree that there might be some tweaking necessary to these items to make them more usable at lower levels, many good suggestions around though.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:12 pm Doesn't this just bring summons and summoners more in line with most other classes without summons?

I wouldn't say that it brings them in line.
While the gear tax is real, we should also acknowledge the power level ceiling that's much higher for mundane builds thanks to these gear options.
It's true that a spellcaster summoner can reach near peak efficiency with rudimentary 2 stat cheap gear, but at the same time any further improvements to their gear are subject to diminishing returns.
On the other hand, mundane builds enjoy a tangible increase in power level with each and every gear improvement they make - the floor is lower for them as they'll struggle much more with cheap 2 stat gear, but the ceiling is higher as they can become much more powerful when equipped with 5% runic gear.


tl;dr: NWN fun fact - the higher the server's magic item level, the greater benefit for mundane builds at the expense of spellcaster classes.
Rather than complaining about the cost, mundane build players should be grateful for even having access to these powerful items in the first place.

Hello Irongron / Arelith Developers.
My internet handle is Aren. I started playing Arelith back in 2017 and have enjoyed the server ever since.
I have been dedicating my last few years on Arelith to playtesting various new classes and reworks, finding and reporting bugs/exploits and providing general feedback in, hopefully, a constructive manner. I have levelled more than 20 characters to 30, in the relatively short time I have been on Arelith. I consider myself someone who has an informed understanding of the game mechanics, and at least have a decent grasp of most classes.

I would like to preface this feedback post by stating the obvious fact, that these changes have not yet been implemented, thus most of the following is speculation/theory crafting. I also want to emphasise that I do believe a nerf to certain summons is definitely warranted, if not way overdue. I have split the feedback up into different sections, touching upon concerns I have.

1.Initial idea behind the sequencer items.
As far as I understand, and please correct me if I am wrong, the original idea behind the sequencers was to remove the need to fill your spell book with buff spells. This is something I can support and get behind. The idea is great and having some sequencers to alleviate buff-dance, makes being a caster more interesting, as you can prepare more situational spells, that could potentially save your party or your own bacon. I was applauding the idea when it was aired in the development channel on the official Arelith discord.
The implementation of these items seemed to stem from this mindset, that casters should be able to cast more and have more engaging gameplay. However, to my understanding, the reason these sequencers are now being added in this particular fashion, is because Irongron really dislikes seeing mages/summoners use (some) summons to trivialize their dungeon delving. Arelith is his server and it follows his vision, so he is entirely entitled to making changes as he sees fit. I do not dispute this.
Though I am sad to see what I initially thought was going to be a great addition to the server, being implemented in a way to reign in summon strength. Forgive me for being blunt – but it seems like a very crude way to go about this, and I hypothesize that it will require an enormous amount of subsequent development work, as opposed to other solutions. I will provide further insight into this in the following paragraphs.

2. The cost / when bad things happen to good adventurers.
Looking at the sequencer items, they seem to have a decent set of spells that would be useful enough for summoners to use on their summons. However, some of the spells added to the sequencers have turns/level duration (Shield, Improved Invisibility) or even rounds/level (Mantle). Some of the spells are even subject to direct counters, such as invisibility purge (that many divine monsters/bosses use), that (often) requires the summoner to reapply the buff to the summon. This could get very costly in Sequencer charges, very quickly even at low levels.
Another thing to consider, is that Arelith, while being a very stable server, has its stability issues. If you transition servers you will, without fail, crash soon after unless you restart the game. This means that you will be spending extra charges of your sequencers if you are planning to move across servers. This can of course be alleviated by not summoning before transitioning servers – but some places, like the Duergar Fortress for instance, has an exit portal that forces you to transition servers.
A way to get around this, is either to lower the cost of the materials needed to craft these sequencer items (IE. no endgame runic materials), or to drastically increase the number of charges or even make them a onetime investment with x amount of uses per rest. Any class that relies on summons will need these items if they are to do anything remotely level appropriate on their own.
I urge you to test this before the update, by taking a level appropriate character to a place like the Slime Temple in the Underdark, go through the dungeon once without warding your summon – and then once with it fully warded. Your summon will not last unwarded. This brings me to the next concern.

3. Being Optimal/Crafting gameplay
If you want to play a caster / summoner character now, you basically have to do crafting gameplay – or hope that someone else will do it for you. I know crafting is a thing some players enjoy greatly; I personally have very little love for it and will spend great amounts of gold to avoid it entirely. To each his own, I say.
But – I often experience crafting droughts / item scarcity. Players of Skal will know what I mean. You’re not always able to get scroll cases / spell components / jewellery boxes / gem pouches / repair kits etc. as demand often outweighs supply, and not everyone who owns a shop, is interested in crafting. This will inevitably force some players to go through some “tedium” or an aspect of the game they don’t enjoy – I already heard a lot of mages complain about spell components. (I think spell components are fine). But I personally, and I think I speak for at least a moderate amount of players here, do not want to be pigeonholed into having to use a system I don’t enjoy. It’s at least something to consider, as many of our players are in their 30’s, have jobs, responsibilities to their families, children etc. and have scarce time to play – and likely don’t want to spend their playtime grinding out that sequencer item, so they can play the game “for real” next time they get to play.

4. Engaging gameplay / Spells and their usefulness in dungeons
This brings me to the next concern. If the idea behind the sequencers were to make casters more engaging, as in use more spells / be casting more, there is the issue of how useful spells are in dungeons. Having spent the past week levelling a Hemomancer from 3-27, a caster with infinite spellcasting if played right, I quickly ran into the issue of very high saving throws on monsters, very high HP pools on monsters, evasion / improved evasion, mind immunity, elemental immunities / resistances etc.
I’m not a spring chicken when it comes to grinding solo, it’s what I do 85% of the time. But seeing as some creatures have 300-500 hp, in level 18 areas – I question what buttons casters are supposed to push. An example is the Formorian dungeon in the Underdark. This place is a nice spot to get some experience at high teens – start twenties. The monsters here take 5 empowered scintillating spheres that do 80-100 damage per cast, to kill. That would be 5, 5th level spell slots for a Wizard or Sorcerer. And that is just for one pack of monsters. I could press a fear button, sure, but that would just make the monsters run away, forcing my summon to chase them, dealing less damage – making the dungeon take way more time than it needs to.

Then you can run into one of these:

Even with a fully buffed Greater Planar Binding, it would take 3-4 minutes of combat to kill (if you relied on the summon entirely). Or 5 rounds if you’re hasted cleric and have 9-10 casts of harm. This is of course an outlier HP wise, but it is not uncommon to find 900hp unique monsters at late teen content. If casters are to be more reliant on spell casting, most server content would need a major overhaul to support this playstyle. If you cannot reliably buff your summon, you’ll find yourself healkit botting the summon through the entire dungeon. This is not a fun and engaging gameplay.
If these things aren't addressed, I hypothesise that you’ll start to see epic level casters doing mid-tier content, and disrupting questing areas for level appropriate characters, simply because they have no other real options.

5. Summon-centric builds are getting hit
Some classes are very reliant on their summons. There are entire builds revolving about what your summon can do as opposed to raw player character power. An example would be a caster warlock, with epic fiend summon. You sacrifice a great deal of player power to get access to a summon that most people think is overpowered. But in reality, epic fiend, while being very good in PvE content, is not really worth its feat slot in PvP. This is because it can be directly countered by many different spells, and if removed goes on a 6 minute cooldown. This feat will be worth even less after the update, as you can no longer push it’s AB / AC to heights in which it can reliably tank / fight endgame/level appropriate content. The reaction to this, will likely be that warlocks who built for summons either reroll into blasters, which actually is the optimal way to build warlocks nowadays, or just plain roll their characters. And I am not trying to be hyperbolic here, but we saw what a slight nerf to feylock blast damage did. And warlocks are not the only ones who are taking this hit – It was merely to post an example.

6. Just get a group / The bane of odd time zones
A majority of Arelith’s playerbase is localized in the US. These players will have very little issue finding a group to do writs, to help them with crafting, to get good roleplay stories going etc. Some of us, myself included, play at odd times. Usually I’ll be lucky to see more than 80 people online across all servers, unless I stay awake into the middle of the night. This is also in part why I evolved into a solo-grinding machine. There were very few players to play with. Playing casters with summons enabled me to explore everything the server had to offer, without having to sacrifice my sleep schedule. I would hate having to stay up until 3am to find a group for that runic dungeon, just for chance to get that thing I need for that item I need enchanted. While I get that Arelith is a roleplaying server, and you’re expected to interact with the world and your fellow players, not everyone has the same options in that regard.

7. Player Agency / The bane of designing challenging dungeons
I have always been very vocal about player agency, and the ability to play the game how I enjoy it, on my own terms and pursuing my own interests – all within the ruleset of Arelith of course. I cannot help but feel that this change, is somehow forcing me to do certain aspects of the game that I have no interest in, if I intend to play certain classes. This will likely result in a scenario in which I will avoid playing any class that requires me to partake in those aspects of the game (crafting for example). That’s a shame, because I really like playing caster characters. I cannot help but feel options are being taken from me, and to be honest, it doesn’t feel good.

I also understand the frustration of Irongron, putting out new content that he would like to challenge his playerbase, and then seeing a caster conjure up a pair of planar beings, pumping them full of buffs and then walking behind them as they make mincemeat of the monsters in the brand-new dungeon. But honestly, very little content on Arelith is challenging to the point where players are getting their pulse up, when adventuring. I think this is in part due to some powercreep, but mostly the fact that people are simply way better at the game than they used to be, more people play optimised builds and many players have played here for years – knowing the server and its content like the back of their hand.
But here’s the kicker, and this is just my opinion and again, Irongron is the owner, and his vision is what matters; I don’t think dungeons need to be inherently challenging or a thing players dread to do. That’s not what makes Arelith fun or engaging for me at least. Yes, some dungeons can be dangerous – if you get an unlucky knockdown from a Grimlock Reaver, most of the time it means a trip to the fugue. It is what it is, and sometimes it happens. But what I enjoy, is exploring all the wonderful new content that the developers work so hard to hand over to us, at times, ungrateful players. Skal, for example, feels like a magical place, and I go back there all the time, just to be in that atmosphere. So while I agree that some summons need a down-tuning, it’s not with PvE content in mind strictly speaking.

8. Closing remarks
I know that the Arelith playerbase generally has a tendency to be hyperbolic when sweeping changes hit the announcement tab. I have learned to lean back and watch things unfold, adapt and try something new. That being said, I cannot see how this change, in this particular iteration, can be good/fun for the players of Arelith. I believe in having more options, and this looks and feels like having options stripped away from you. Therefore, I feel as a long time player who has enjoyed Arelith for half a decade, I need to leave this post with a few alternative propositions.

8. Alternatives / Propositions
1) Add the sequencers as items that people can invest in to open up spell slots for more casting. This will give players reasons to pack more utility spells / offensive spells in their spell books.

2) Keep the ability to cast on your own summon – instead tone down stats of those particular summons you think are out of line.

3) Remove epic level scaling for Planar Conduit, which by far is the most egregious offender regarding auto-piloting through dungeons. It may not entirely fix the problem, but it may tone them down to tolerable levels. You could also look into reducing their damage by roughly 30%.

4) Make Gate an exception to the sequencers. Scurvy Cur had it right when he said that this could be a potential balance issue.

Sincerely,
Aren.

(Edited for slight grammatical errors.)

Shadowy Reality wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:12 pm

Most other classes need to heavily invest in gear and consumables to be able to do this. Other classes have it even worse as even with that it is even harder to do much solo (see rogues).

Consumables, yes. Gear, not so much. I've gotten as high as level 25 using a delver armor on a two-hand melee character going solo, and if you don't have enough to buy your end game gear at that point something went horribly wrong. Like you invested in bitcoin wrong. Also, rogues are surprisingly easy to level once you find your groove. Your ac is better than one might think, and stealth can make it so that casters are a non-factor all together. And you have the best get out of jail free card in the game, since you just need to find a corner and tap an instant action button as opposed to say the time it takes to cast greater sanctuary. Choking powder is still pretty decent as well, even if it's not broken like it was back in the will save days.

The main difference is that these sorts of characters take micromanagement and a lot of game knowledge to be successful solo, whereas a caster just summons, buffs, mass hastes and collects. Me personally, I would rather be playing a weapons master or a rogue against the end game bosses then a caster, just because if something goes wrong with the summons you probably lost.

Another question: Is content going to be balanced around the expectation that casters take planar conduit? I do not use the feat and do not want to be forced to use it.

I already try to stray away from crafting in game because I simply do not enjoy it. I really try to limit doing it to the absolute necessities such as spell components, which can already be an annoyance, albeit understandable. My favorite class to play is wizard bar none as I enjoy it thematically.

I do not like this change.

Hum. I expected quite a few things to come out of the 'planar conduit' nerf.
- Removing their epic level summoner scaling, to make them on par with mummy dust.
- Lowering their 'extra features' like DR and Regeneration a tad if removing epic summoner scaling wasn't enough after some live testing.
- Removing the Tier 5 summon and making it just the Tier 6 one if even that wasn't enough.

I did not expect all of this, and I especially did not expect it hitting the leveling stage as opposed to the endgame stage.

Trying to be objective, here's what I feel about the sequencers alongside this buff change:
- I like the core idea of them. Really, I do. Having a premade buff packet does make it 'easier' to balance all the summons, because you know what to expect as a designer.
- I dislike how it *feels*. It makes no sense that you can't cast spells on your own creatures, and it removes nearly all of the creativity and agency remaining in the summoner playstyle.
- The spell slots this will open up will not in any appreciable fashion make summoners more diverse and interesting to play. After 'summoning spells', 'buff spells for my summons' and 'wide-area rounds/lvl buffs/debuffs', the value of spells diminishes dramatically. Non-infinicast damage spells are (at least in pve) close to being the worst possible use for your spell slots.
- They feel very expensive for just 10 charges.
- They don't expand or make gameplay interesting or more fun. They just represent the 'price tag' side of making the summoner playstyle far more bland, linear and constrictive than it already is.

My suggestion:
- Pocket this sequencer/buffing change for now. It can still be implemented at a later date, alongside comprehensive changes to spellcasters.
- Remove epic summoner scaling from Conduit and maybe even curve down the bonuses from conjuration (remove the ab/ac bonus, leave only things like hp, saves, etc).
- Set one or two designers to figure out how to make offensive spellcasting interesting/rewarding for non-infinicasters in a world where their spell lists are largely shared with infinicasters.

I get the spirit behind this change, but it feels very ill-timed.

-EDIT- a bonus suggestion - make the low level sequencer something that is created by the summoner via a spell or feat interaction. "Conjure Lesser (X) Amplifier", pops a non-tradeable lesser sequencer with a single use into your inventory. I think this would be far better than requiring crafting out of a single-digit level character.

Aren wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:46 pm A lot of things

Aren is without question one of the most capable individuals I've met when it comes to execution of mechanics, but also, has a fundamental understanding of how they function and an understanding of balance probably greater than that which most players or developers could likely hope to achieve. So I'm just going to +1 this.

It Came From Beneath The Earth wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 1:58 pm

Aren wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:46 pm A lot of things

Aren is without question one of the most capable individuals I've met when it comes to execution of mechanics, but also, has a fundamental understanding of how they function and an understanding of balance probably greater than that which most players or developers could likely hope to achieve. So I'm just going to +1 this.

+1 from me as well

Preface: I don’t play summoners, hate the gameplay, summons were too good, still think change is bad.

To really understand the impact here we need to run the numbers and have some understanding of how NWN combat works. If you are fighting an enemy with 10ab and you have 30 ac, they are only hitting you on a 20. If you have 29 ac they hit you TWICE as much. As a consequence every point of ac loss must be considered within the context of the enemies being faced. As you level, you will come across dungeons where simply giving you or your summons 1-3 ac is the difference between a breezy leveling experience and being wiped in a few seconds by a double spawn.

We need to be honest here and see first of all that the divine package is awful statwise. It gives almost nothing compared to what a cleric would lose, especially the healer cleric who just lost its overheal summon. Anyone who played this build in the past knows that there are times when they health buffer really comes in handy, not to mention the QoL of rarely having to heal.

I will run the numbers with assumption we are using the arcane sequencer (MAGE ARMOUR/SHIELD/IMP INVIS) . This is very generous given these are turn/lvl buffs largely, so do keep that in mind. This is the BEST case scenario and it is still horrendous.

I have included haste in all calculations as I pick up haste wands even on my mundanes, and many of these casters would be able to cast haste themselves with good uptime. Single target haste has been removed from summons.

Clerics

Net Losses:
11-13ac (SoF:1, Barkskin 4-5, cats: 2-3, haste:4)
3-4ab (aid:1, bulls 2-3)
regen, SR, all those immunities


Ranger:

Net losses
11-12ac (Barkskin:5, cats 2-3, haste 4)
3-4ab (aid 1, bulls 2-3)
Freedom

Shaman:

(gets mass haste)

7-8ac(Barkskin 5, cats 2-3)
2-3ab (bulls 2-3)
Druid

11-12ac (barkskin 5, cats 2-3, haste 4)
2-3ab (bulls 2-3)

Wizard/sorc/warlock types:

(still gets access to mass haste/zoo which makes them comparatively unaffected)

Net losses

4ac (Barkskin 4)



Summary:

The majority of complaints I have seen centered around mages, but it is actually druids/shamans/rangers/clerics who are hit the worst. The change feels utterly misdirected.

This especially stings for the ranger who invested in those animal companion feats. They were brought in recently enough that this should absolutely never have happened, yet here we are.

Let me reiterate again the difference one point of ac can make, now look back at my numbers and explain, honestly, why you think this could possibly ok.

At 5ac loss, this requires a big change in how players must approach the summoner gameplay.

At 12 ac loss you are not nerfing summons: You are removing them from gameplay.





(Some numbers may be off, but I believe I’ve largely captured the theme).

Aren spittin' straight facts about the larger context.

XXX too gets a mention for remarking on the power ceiling of non-casters being way, way higher.

This change is almost on par with the circle grind script.

Aren wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 12:46 pm Hello Irongron / Arelith Developers.
My internet handle is Aren. I started playing Arelith back in 2017 and have enjoyed the server ever since.

Yeah +1 for all this.

TooManyPotatoes wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:21 pm
Summary:

The majority of complaints I have seen centered around mages, but it is actually druids/shamans/rangers/clerics who are hit the worst. The change feels utterly misdirected.

This especially stings for the ranger who invested in those animal companion feats. They were brought in recently enough that this should absolutely never have happened, yet here we are.

Let me reiterate again the difference one point of ac can make, now look back at my numbers and explain, honestly, why you think this could possibly ok.

At 5ac loss, this requires a big change in how players must approach the summoner gameplay.

At 12 ac loss you are not nerfing summons: You are removing them from gameplay.

(Some numbers may be off, but I believe I’ve largely captured the theme).

You are right, in that Druids, Shamans, Rangers, and Clerics are hit the worst.

Arcane casters like sorcerers, and especially wizards however, were already in a -horrible- place before this change. Clerics are arguably one of the most powerful classes in the game, and Druids are no slouches either.

But Wizards... man. It's hard to play a wizard these days when Clerics can do anything you can do, but better, and also heal, and buff harder. Especially since the domain spells have become a thing where, even most of the best wizard spells except mass haste are now at their finger tips.

It hurts everyone a lot.

But I don't know why people would play wizard other than liking the RP of it. Mechanically you no longer have anything going for you.

I can only add one more voice screaming into the void but this is a distressing update especially for below epic levels. I’m under no illusion that my opinion matters or anyone cares whether I stay around or not but I have to at least say something. I haven’t always agreed with updates but never has one instantly crushed my enthusiasm for the game like this.

TooManyPotatoes wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 2:21 pm

Wizard/sorc/warlock types:

(still gets access to mass haste/zoo which makes them comparatively unaffected)

Net losses

4ac (Barkskin 4)

just adding a small thing here~

Sorcerers, and warlocks, have 3 slots for spells known for lvl 6.
mass zoo's are lvl 6.
for sorc, this contests mass haste, true sight, and IGMS, all which are considered must-haves.
for warlock, it contests thinks like greater dispel, inferno, energy buffer too, i think? and a few others.

so i would NOT say that sorc/warlock loses just 4 ac. sorcs absolutely CANNOT afford to take mass zoo's. warlocks can, but with a rather HEFTY sacrifice.

wizards, they are, in my opinion, not hurt THAT much. it is still a pain that they have to sacrifice their lvl6 and possibly lvl 8 slots for regular/empowered mass zoo's, but at least they don't sacrifice very, very valuable spells known.

Ork wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:37 am Since we're talking about math, here's what lesser sequencers give your summons:

Code: Select all

Arcane
+6 ac, 50% concealment

Druidic
+5 ac, +2 ab

Divine
+1 ab, +2 ac, +4 vs. banishment, immune to neg

Overall, I think lesser sequencers are great for leveling since you've now got a reliable way to apply these buffs without consuming needed spellslots. They're also pretty comprable to what a mundane might spend on consumables — except, 10x more efficient since they trigger off of player level and not caster level. You can make these with 1 tradeskill point since the DC is 15. The most optimal for leveling, the arcane sequencer, only needs 1 Scroll of Mage Armor (50g), Shield(50g) and Improved Invisibility(700g or cheaper if scribed yourself), 1 Casting Mold (DC1), 1 Lesser Catalyst (DC 19, 1000g). Total base cost assuming worst scenario = 1800g.

That is *a lot* for a level 3 character not leveling in skal. How are they going to get money if they can't complete writs because they don't have sequencers and can't buff their summons? Only to get immediately squished.

Not everyone knows mechanics or how to build. And this will seriously hurt new players trying to play the game.
I understand nerfing *epic* summons. Like LG Gate spell. But many, many non-melee casters rely on conjuration summons to even exist. And early game, it is hard to get gold. Basically you must rely on others to help you.

My current character is a caster favored soul. Of course she is not a mechanically viable build. She was made to support other characters mechanically. When I made her and started levelling... I chose to start in Cordor. Because I don't like Skal, and am comfortable leveling in Cordor. But... I could not find a SINGLE person to level with until Level 12. No one was interested or close enough to my starting level. I only was able to level because of my summons.

So basically, you have to beg people to help you with the ingredients to all of these... because they're not easily available or attainable for non-melee builds at level 3-6. And you can't go level without the sequencer buffs.... so you're stuck. And that's not fun.. at all.

Naghast wrote: Mon Jul 11, 2022 3:09 pm just adding a small thing here~

Sorcerers, and warlocks, have 3 slots for spells known for lvl 6.
mass zoo's are lvl 6.

Yeah, I don't see how sorcerers could squeeze two mass zoo spells into their spell list. Also getting ESF:transmutation is probably not something that they can afford to take. We might be looking at wizards having access to superior summons here.