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Re: Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:21 pm
by McKnighter
Honestly, anyone who thinks marauder is still good, I'll fight you as my adjutant champion on the test server and show you why you are wrong. Go ahead and make one and prove to me otherwise.

Marauder is a dead path when the other paths or even pathless outclass it. Having made the switch to adjutant champion, I'm fine with a little less damage and instead being able to dispel even harder and have enough ac to force my enemies to either use a true strike potion or to keep breaching/dispelling until I'm ready to take on. The damage is still great. Spellsword is in a really strong spot.

I think the easiest bandaid fix is removing mords from the class, like they did with invoker. Marauder needs some love either through giving back it's EB or finding some other way to make it more attractive. Removing mords would put it down from being S tier in pvp I'd feel, and that would have them at a decent spot. They would be pretty level with paladin dispelling from holy sword.

Anything more drastic than that might just wind up tanking the entire class. Which if that's how the devs want to go, it's fine. There's other classes to play.

Re: Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:01 pm
by Xerah
I don't understand how people can say Marauder is good (I just deleted mine). If you're comparing it to other classes, then you're doing it wrong as it needs to be compared internally.

If this is the baseline (which is totally reasonable), then the other two paths should get similar adjustments. If spellswords are too good after that, then they should get some minor class adjustments.

It is good that people are discussing pathless vs marauder as to which is a better option. HOWEVER, no one does that if you want to wear armour, or be an elf with a rapier. That alone shows how out of wack the balance is between paths is.

Re: Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 4:12 pm
by Kalthariam
Well I am glad to know that I can safely abandon the path and reformat my character into something different. I will never understand the people that currently think that Marauder is fine, outside of people that were just angry Marauders were strong before and happy they've been nerfed into oblivion.

The character is my first ever greater award, so I haven't been very happy with the idea of shelfing them, hopefully they are salvageable.

Re: Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:41 pm
by Kalopsia
Before sharing my thoughts on spellsword balance, let me elaborate on the general design direction I’m pursuing with my custom classes, paths and reworks. In essence, there is a framework of class abilities and passive bonuses that, by themselves, make for a versatile and viable character and provide a solid baseline for numbers. Meanwhile, paths are optional (yes, optional) additions that specialize in parts of the kit at the detriment of others, though the final performance is meant to be comparable to the unpathed “generalist” variant of a class.

STR marauder, before the changes, overperformed in almost every regard: Thanks to Epic Weapon Specialization, they had (and still have) more damage than every other spellsword. Their enhancement bonus allowed them to stack further damage on weapons like the Unfettering Edge and achieve similar damage output as a falchion while ignoring the usual associated feat cost of an exotic weapon. The Unfettering Edge also made for a great burst damage weapon, which synergizes well with the path’s instant attacks and hit and run playstyle in PvP, enabling them to kill some targets within less than a round. Long-lasting and high CL Haste (which they still have), as well as solid AC for a two-handed build also made them hard to pin down, yet even in that scenario they had free physical DR.

Remember my earlier statement about trade-offs and final performance. Significant benefits such as these require similarly meaningful downsides, because otherwise there is no reason not to be a marauder. However, pre-update marauders only missed out on 30% DI and 15/- DR against a single element since Greater Weapon Imbue granted them the same level 26 perks Imbue Armor would have otherwise offered. That is why these Greater Imbue perks disappeared to give the path a meaningful trade-off. Meanwhile, losing their enhancement bonus did not actually lower their damage, it merely changed their weapon selection and the associated feat cost, making some build decisions less straightforward.

I know having a character’s abilities dialled back never feels great, but perhaps these insights make the update a bit more understandable. In any case, the ongoing “to marauder or not to marauder”-debate tells me there is an actual decision involved now - and that, in my opinion, is an improvement.

Re: Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2022 4:18 pm
by Kalthariam
If that's the way you currently see it, that's fine, it's your decision in the end. I'll just simply relevel out of Marauder.

I don't understand, nor do I think I ever will understand the people that state that the path in it's current state is a "Good state" to be in and that the trade offs are worth it, but at this point discussing it further isn't going to get anywhere.

With the basic confirmation that marauder is dead, I'll just go pathless and just enjoy being better at PvE content, which is the only thing I care about.

Re: Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 2:37 pm
by AstralUniverse
Well, I personally think Spellsword in general is overpowered so I dont think comparing Marauder to other paths/pathless does it justice. Maybe other paths need nerfs. If you think it's better to go pathless on a 2hander spellsword you are banking on the wrong stats even if it looks better on paper. Marauder is actually very strong, possibly still overpowered if we compared it to other 2hander classes outside of spellsword, like barbarian or whatever.

Re: Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2022 4:18 pm
by Kalthariam
I'll survive doing 6 damage less, and make up for the 4/- resistance by passively regenerating HP.. while having a bunch of other DR from various other sources still. Get my two feats back that I put in for Marauder to boot, sure I can find something useful to make up for it. Suppose I also won't have power attack anymore, but I'm pretty sure I can live without that.

Re: Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:44 am
by Bees in Space
Kalopsia wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:41 pm I know having a character’s abilities dialled back never feels great, but perhaps these insights make the update a bit more understandable. In any case, the ongoing “to marauder or not to marauder”-debate tells me there is an actual decision involved now - and that, in my opinion, is an improvement.
I'm gonna focus on this part since I'm not a mechanics expert by any means, and Xerah made a good point above in that if I want to make a heavy armor tank SS, there is absolutely no argument to be made for going pathless instead of abjurant champion. Same goes for a dex-based build and bladesinger. Marauder is the only path where there appears to be any debate at all as to whether or not it's actually better than going pathless for the mechanical role the path is intended to represent. So why aren't abjurant champion and bladesinger being nerfed into line as well?

Re: Arcane Marauder Nerf Feedback

Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:20 pm
by Kalopsia
Bees in Space wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:44 am
Kalopsia wrote: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:41 pm I know having a character’s abilities dialled back never feels great, but perhaps these insights make the update a bit more understandable. In any case, the ongoing “to marauder or not to marauder”-debate tells me there is an actual decision involved now - and that, in my opinion, is an improvement.
I'm gonna focus on this part since I'm not a mechanics expert by any means, and Xerah made a good point above in that if I want to make a heavy armor tank SS, there is absolutely no argument to be made for going pathless instead of abjurant champion. Same goes for a dex-based build and bladesinger. Marauder is the only path where there appears to be any debate at all as to whether or not it's actually better than going pathless for the mechanical role the path is intended to represent. So why aren't abjurant champion and bladesinger being nerfed into line as well?
You don't have to be an abjurant to be a tanky spellsword. The heavy armour is the path's flavor, its performance when it comes to numbers is pretty much identical to a pathless build with medium armor. It just trades Elemental Maelstrom and three feats (Heavy Armour Proficiency, the path feat and Automatic Still Spell 3) for effectively 1AC and slightly better dispel checks.

Similarly, you don't have to be a bladesinger to be a DEX spellsword. The path gains various flavour abilities, but in situations that matter, Automatic Quicken Spell and the 10% movement speed increase are nigh useless since you're going to be hasted anyway. Similarly, the offhand AC is identical to the AC a pathless spellsword gets by equipping an Enchanted Shield - however, a bladesinger cannot enchant their (empty) offhand slot. In summary, bladesingers trade two feats (Dodge and the path feat), as well as their offhand slot for some fluff and 2-3 extra threat range that isn't particularly impactful in the AC ranges you're targeting in PvP.