Arelith

I really dont understand why many people on this server are agaisnt having to invest on bluff/perform to be good at hiding something of their character's traits since you know..the skill and disguise mechanic are made for that

If most people really want to be able to hide something of their characters without having to invest on a skill madee for that then i suggest to have any mecahics involving bluff/perform to be removed from the server since it seems almost no one likes investing on it.

Also raising the lore check for 30-40 lore would make so a paladin for example isnt able to say someone is a tiefling even if they see goat eyes and horns,wich would probably mean the paladin knows it's a tiefling because it makes sense he studied them,but apparently it's fine to have to invest 40 on lore to notice a plane touched race but it's not okay for a tiefling/aasimar having to invest 40 on bluff to hide whatever they want to hide...

EDIT: Oh and the 40 bluff "needed" to be able to hide one's traits is only agaisnt epic level characters that invested on spot,any other epic level character that has zero points in Spot only a bluff of 25-30 does the job

BegoneThoth wrote:There's been lame stuff going on either way you do it. From the no bio unknown race until dead, to the "guys I found a tiefling!" cries in Cordor.

Alas!

How exactly is empty bio such an obstacle for you in your role play?

Cybernet21 wrote:I really dont understand why many people on this server are agaisnt having to invest on bluff/perform to be good at hiding something of their character's traits since you know..the skill and disguise mechanic are made for that

If most people really want to be able to hide something of their characters without having to invest on a skill madee for that then i suggest to have any mecahics involving bluff/perform to be removed from the server since it seems almost no one loke sinvesting on it.

Also raising the lore check for 30-40 lore would make so a paladin for example isnt able to say someone is a tiefling even if they see goat eyes and horns,wich would probably mean the paladin knows it's a tiefling because it makes sense he studied them,but apparently it's fine to have to invest 40 on lore to notice a plane touched race but it's not okay for a tiefling/aasimar having to invest 40 on bluff to hide whatever they want to hide...

EDIT: Oh and the 40 bluff "needed" to be able to hide one's traits is only agaisnt epic level characters that invested on spot,any other epic level character that has zero points in Spot only a bluff of 25-30 does the job

How can lvl 3 tiefling hide himself from anyone with 0 spot?

flower wrote:

Cybernet21 wrote:I really dont understand why many people on this server are agaisnt having to invest on bluff/perform to be good at hiding something of their character's traits since you know..the skill and disguise mechanic are made for that

If most people really want to be able to hide something of their characters without having to invest on a skill madee for that then i suggest to have any mecahics involving bluff/perform to be removed from the server since it seems almost no one loke sinvesting on it.

Also raising the lore check for 30-40 lore would make so a paladin for example isnt able to say someone is a tiefling even if they see goat eyes and horns,wich would probably mean the paladin knows it's a tiefling because it makes sense he studied them,but apparently it's fine to have to invest 40 on lore to notice a plane touched race but it's not okay for a tiefling/aasimar having to invest 40 on bluff to hide whatever they want to hide...

EDIT: Oh and the 40 bluff "needed" to be able to hide one's traits is only agaisnt epic level characters that invested on spot,any other epic level character that has zero points in Spot only a bluff of 25-30 does the job

How can lvl 3 tiefling hide himself from anyone with 0 spot?

Well if he took gift of bluff he probably can hide from a lot of people who are pre epics with zero spot as from epic characters Nope,but it makes sense,someone right off the boat being a master at disguise is kinda...OP and doesnt make sense,specially for a plane touched character if the check was raised to 40 lore and the character didnt need bluff to hide the race traits they want to hide

EDIT:Bluff Gift plus 4 points on level one other point counting the level 2 you get right off the bat and another one from the starting speedy quest that gives you level 3 would put bluff at would put bluff at 12,and the thing i talked about needing 25-30 skillpoints on it to hide from most epic characters is not counting gear,with gear a solid 20 is good enough.But now, if your character doesnt have a class with bluff skill as a class skill then he will have a hard time disguising at first,but so he should no one can be a master at everything.

Plus with this new system it gets even better for someone wanting to disguise a aasimar character (instead of tiefling on this one) for example,because someone wanting to see trough the disgusie will have to break the bluff check and have a 15 on a lore check

imagine playing a planetouched doing speedies, and that one loudmouth who loiters around cordor sees your race, doesnt even need to be epic, a low teens would be able to see it

Cybernet21 wrote:I really dont understand why many people on this server are agaisnt having to invest on bluff/perform to be good at hiding something of their character's traits since you know..the skill and disguise mechanic are made for that

If most people really want to be able to hide something of their characters without having to invest on a skill madee for that then i suggest to have any mecahics involving bluff/perform to be removed from the server since it seems almost no one likes investing on it.

Also raising the lore check for 30-40 lore would make so a paladin for example isnt able to say someone is a tiefling even if they see goat eyes and horns,wich would probably mean the paladin knows it's a tiefling because it makes sense he studied them,but apparently it's fine to have to invest 40 on lore to notice a plane touched race but it's not okay for a tiefling/aasimar having to invest 40 on bluff to hide whatever they want to hide...

EDIT: Oh and the 40 bluff "needed" to be able to hide one's traits is only agaisnt epic level characters that invested on spot,any other epic level character that has zero points in Spot only a bluff of 25-30 does the job

Alright, we have come as far in this thread to accept that planars dont always have obvious features. So let's put your argument into work here.
New character arrives to the isle. He's rather embaressed of his hairline, so he shaves his head. But he doesn't want to walk around showing his cueball head everywhere, so he has a hood/hat on.
Should this guy then have to invest into bluff/perform (Heavily) to hide the fact that he is bald?

Cybernet21 wrote:I really dont understand why many people on this server are agaisnt having to invest on bluff/perform to be good at hiding something of their character's traits since you know..the skill and disguise mechanic are made for that

Stath wrote:Yes but how is right clicking someone and examining them and reading their character sheet to then discover that they are a plane touched a preferable alternative on a heavy RP server to actually interactively roleplaying with them?

Cortex wrote:yes, another skill needed in an era where skills are in higher demand than ever before, with every gear slot with bluff no less

Invader_Nym wrote:The problem with all this is really the disguise system, because it waves a big flag that says 'I'M HIDING SOMETHING' by making the (disguise) tag mandatory. I don't walk around examining every single individual I pass, but I /definitely/ examine every single disguised person I pass. This is a problem.

Aftond wrote:The problem is that a tiefling can have very subtle features, to a degree where you /need/ further scrutinizing to figure it out to be one. Even without a helmet. Elves and drow are so radically different, so they cant be compared.

Cybernet21 wrote:EDIT: Oh and the 40 bluff "needed" to be able to hide one's traits is only agaisnt epic level characters that invested on spot,any other epic level character that has zero points in Spot only a bluff of 25-30 does the job

Well if he took gift of bluff he probably can hide from a lot of people who are pre epics with zero spot as from epic characters Nope,but it makes sense,someone right off the boat being a master at disguise is kinda...OP and doesnt make sense,specially for a plane touched character if the check was raised to 40 lore and the character didnt need bluff to hide the race traits they want to hide

Everything Irongron, DirtyDeity and Scholar Midnight said in their posts (I could copy paste-that as well but this singular post is already getting too big).

This especially

I think is a really crucial point. Word spreads (unfortunately also on OOC channels) and I don't really see a situation, whatever the check value, that anyone would be able to keep this kind of information a secret in the long term. It also makes a poor story resolution when the 'big reveal' comes not as the culmination of a larger narrative, but because someone happened to pass a roll at a specific time.

Aftond wrote:

Alright, we have come as far in this thread to accept that planars dont always have obvious features. So let's put your argument into work here.
New character arrives to the isle. He's rather embaressed of his hairline, so he shaves his head. But he doesn't want to walk around showing his cueball head everywhere, so he has a hood/hat on.
Should this guy then have to invest into bluff/perform (Heavily) to hide the fact that he is bald?

Well if the character really wants for no one to know then yes,because someone who invested (heavily) on spot should get a pro for it,and this is RP if your character doesnt have anything on bluff then he is really bad at hiding things such as a bald head or race traits so RP with that (maybe the hat is put on a strange way so that a small spot of the head where hair should be is seen,or the hood is not pulled enough,etc..)

EDIT: All you have to do is drop hints emoting such as: *for those who are perceptive enough (spot) they might notice a small spot of his head that isnt fully covered by the hat and where hair should be,it's completey smooth*,since there isnt a mechanic involving the case on the example,yes it can be abused by characters who dont have something invested on spot but then that's just bad RP or even unfun if the person knows their characters dont have spot and still RP that they saw the spot that isnt covered

The crooked point in that argument is that it is NOT POSSIBLE to successfully hide something like this as a low level character. Even if you get bluff gift, play as a bard, and dump ALL of your points into Charisma, heavily gimping your character.

Even then, the complete random 0-spot boy standing in Cordor can examine you, break your disguise, see you're a tiefling, and go hey, lol, look, a tiefling.

Then your whole attempt is ruined by this one guy with 0 spot, and you've no hope but to openly play a tiefling.

And you can't say something like 'well, that's your problem, you chose to play a tiefling, might as well play it openly', because that just pushes us deeper into happy-friend tieflings stroking their horns in the Nomad territory.

No matter what, if there's a mechanical way to see someone is a tiefling or aasimar, it WILL be discovered, ICly or OOCly, and instead of weaving it cleverly into your character, it will just be pushed to your face obnoxiously and ruin all of your character's intrigue.

Cybernet21 wrote:I really dont understand why many people on this server are agaisnt having to invest on bluff/perform to be good at hiding something of their character's traits since you know..the skill and disguise mechanic are made for that

I don't know either but here we are. There's already a system in game doing exactly what is wanted by a large group of people, but they don't seem to want to participate in it, instead relying on no mechanics perfect no-description disguises with no bluff skill.

Just get bluff. It's not too hard.

DirtyDeity wrote:The crooked point in that argument is that it is NOT POSSIBLE to successfully hide something like this as a low level character. Even if you get bluff gift, play as a bard, and dump ALL of your points into Charisma, heavily gimping your character.

Even then, the complete random 0-spot boy standing in Cordor can examine you, break your disguise, see you're a tiefling, and go hey, lol, look, a tiefling.

Then your whole attempt is ruined by this one guy with 0 spot, and you've no hope but to openly play a tiefling.

And you can't say something like 'well, that's your problem, you chose to play a tiefling, might as well play it openly', because that just pushes us deeper into happy-friend tieflings stroking their horns in the Nomad territory.

No matter what, if there's a mechanical way to see someone is a tiefling or aasimar, it WILL be discovered, ICly or OOCly, and instead of weaving it cleverly into your character, it will just be pushed to your face obnoxiously and ruin all of your character's intrigue.

So having your character being able to diguise any of their traits with no investement at all or even ,as suggested by some people,here the other charcter having to get a 40 lore check to know someone is a tiefling/aasimar is fair,but this other character having 0 spot noticing a tiefling/aasimar trying to hide who just got off the boat ,wich means their skills are pretty low, isnt?

EDIT: I agree someone with zero spot noticing someone is a tiefling is unbalanced but so is the other way around,either both are fair or both are unfair,and my opinion is that both are unfair

And people asked a while back why so many evil characters level first, then reveal to the world that they're evil and set about their evil schemes.

This is why, because you can't do bluff at low level, and getting caught once can be enough to get ostracized everywhere.

but this other character having 0 spot noticing a tiefling/aasimar trying to hide who just got off the boat ,wich means their skills are pretty low, isnt?

Are you aware how skill checks work? To be safe from a 0 spot character you literally need to have more than 20 disguise, otherwise you will get the disguise seen through. Please tell me how a level 3 character will feasibly get 21 or better bluff against these 0 spot characters?

BegoneThoth wrote:

Cybernet21 wrote:I really dont understand why many people on this server are agaisnt having to invest on bluff/perform to be good at hiding something of their character's traits since you know..the skill and disguise mechanic are made for that

I don't know either but here we are. There's already a system in game doing exactly what is wanted by a large group of people, but they don't seem to want to participate in it, instead relying on no mechanics perfect no-description disguises with no bluff skill.

Just get bluff. It's not too hard.

Fine.

I make a tiefling with horns and tail.

I will invest heavily into bluff, to kick it into heights you cannot pierce it.

I dare you to call my character a tiefling, when it would walk around openly with horns and tail but DISGUISED and you failing mechanical roll.

This is how game is going to look like, when you try to push things trough mechanic.

flower wrote:

BegoneThoth wrote:

Cybernet21 wrote:I really dont understand why many people on this server are agaisnt having to invest on bluff/perform to be good at hiding something of their character's traits since you know..the skill and disguise mechanic are made for that

I don't know either but here we are. There's already a system in game doing exactly what is wanted by a large group of people, but they don't seem to want to participate in it, instead relying on no mechanics perfect no-description disguises with no bluff skill.

Just get bluff. It's not too hard.

Fine.

I make a tiefling with horns and tail.

I will invest heavily into bluff, to kick it into heights you cannot pierce it.

I dare you to call my character a tiefling, when it would walk around openly with horns and tail but DISGUISED and you failing mechanical roll.

This is how game is going to look like, when you try to push things trough mechanic.

What you are saying as an example is abuse of the diguise mechanic and totally reportable but okay...

Nitro wrote:And people asked a while back why so many evil characters level first, then reveal to the world that they're evil and set about their evil schemes.

This is why, because you can't do bluff at low level, and getting caught once can be enough to get ostracized everywhere.

but this other character having 0 spot noticing a tiefling/aasimar trying to hide who just got off the boat ,wich means their skills are pretty low, isnt?

Are you aware how skill checks work? To be safe from a 0 spot character you literally need to have more than 20 disguise, otherwise you will get the disguise seen through. Please tell me how a level 3 character will feasibly get 21 or better bluff against these 0 spot characters?

Yes i know how skill checks work and as stated on my edit on the post you quoted,what you are describing is unbalanced and unfair as well

You can be a tiefling and just be normal. Nobody really cares. I think one if the major cities has a tiefling as guard commander. With the new system you can see that truly they're everywhere.

It's almost irrational to think of them as evil/deserving of banishment from the get go considering how engrained they are.

flower wrote:

BegoneThoth wrote:

Cybernet21 wrote:I really dont understand why many people on this server are agaisnt having to invest on bluff/perform to be good at hiding something of their character's traits since you know..the skill and disguise mechanic are made for that

I don't know either but here we are. There's already a system in game doing exactly what is wanted by a large group of people, but they don't seem to want to participate in it, instead relying on no mechanics perfect no-description disguises with no bluff skill.

Just get bluff. It's not too hard.

Fine.

I make a tiefling with horns and tail.

I will invest heavily into bluff, to kick it into heights you cannot pierce it.

I dare you to call my character a tiefling, when it would walk around openly with horns and tail but DISGUISED and you failing mechanical roll.

This is how game is going to look like, when you try to push things trough mechanic.

Honestly if you hide/cover your extra features ig I'm 100% ok with bluff hiding it as well and I know you can hide wings IG and some people do. Though I would think you should ask a DM if it's OK to bluff hide a tail you can't hide ig. If you have horns, wear a hood, and have bluff, it's 100% allright and ok to just keep your secret from everyone. Tail included if you can hide it in game.

Why should i need to hide it when i got high enough bluff.

The description does not care either whatever is hidden or not.

Look at the disguised bio. Would you see -tiefling- there? No. So sorry, you do not know that guy is tiefling.

(let up to ad absurdum)

BegoneThoth wrote:You can be a tiefling and just be normal. Nobody really cares. I think one if the major cities has a tiefling as guard commander. With the new system you can see that truly they're everywhere.

It's almost irrational to think of them as evil/deserving of banishment from the get go considering how engrained they are.

I don't think this is something to be celebrated. This is a real problem.

I think so too but it's above my pay grade. As long as the planetouched are the de-facto best race it's going to attract people.

Lastly I think this whole situation would be better if planetouched people had to pick some aspect, and that's what was revealed. Such as "this character has unusual pupils" "this character seems to have oddly shaped feet" "this character moves with an almost supernatural grace" "you feel peace and calm when standing near this character."

But make like 30 and that's the only info you get if you beat their disguise.

BegoneThoth wrote:I think so too but it's above my pay grade.

No, it isn't. This is your job as a RPer. Your complacency is why it is the way it is. Begin the planetouched holocaust. Risk your reputation to create this planetouched free utopia you desire.

You can't pass the buck on this one, and you can't make a change from the safety of the forums.

It's a bit different for me though as I strongly prefer to play evil. So I don't feel much need personally to reject them, and I take their levels of government control and local prestige as a sign that evil is winning.

>Sent from phone and edited like four times due to auto correct

Liareth wrote:

BegoneThoth wrote:You can be a tiefling and just be normal. Nobody really cares. I think one if the major cities has a tiefling as guard commander. With the new system you can see that truly they're everywhere.

It's almost irrational to think of them as evil/deserving of banishment from the get go considering how engrained they are.

I don't think this is something to be celebrated. This is a real problem.

Agreed. And it's a problem that in a roundabout way this change should address.

Evidently, there are people who picked tiefling characters for the mechanical perks or for the slightly #edgy feeling of playing something different for the sake of different. They are now realising that actually, the way you build your character isn't solely for mechanical optimisation and has RP consequences too. And apparently are disappointed by that - tough, imo. If you wanted characters to treat you like a human (without going heavy on bluff and disguise) you probably should've rolled a human. Talk about how imperceptible and minor the fiendblood of tieflings is all you want, it's enough to mechanically lock them out of the good alignments.

Hopefully this change, stopping tieflings being humans with a better or more optimised character sheet and 'a third nipple honestly I swear you just can't see and it's not part of my RP ever' and making them special and bizarre and uncomfortable, will lean into that.

Cataclysm of Iron wrote: Evidently, there are people who picked tiefling characters for the mechanical perks or for the slightly #edgy feeling of playing something different for the sake of different. They are now realising that actually, the way you build your character isn't solely for mechanical optimisation and has RP consequences too. And apparently are disappointed by that - tough, imo. If you wanted characters to treat you like a human (without going heavy on bluff and disguise) you probably should've rolled a human.

Hopefully this change, stopping tieflings being humans with a char. sheet perk and 'a third nipple honestly I swear you just can't see and it's not part of my RP ever' and making them special and bizarre and uncomfortable, will lean into that.

The moment the dismissal/banishment change was put in, picking a planetouched became a downgrade. The mechanical argument does not hold. /Especially/ now, with this odd terminator sight.

Tieflings/Aasimars are humans, elves, etc. "Planetouched", not half-blooded. They /should/ pass by without being noticed if they aren't halted and interacted with. If they weren't born with a very obvious feature, like horns. All this change does is shoehorn rp when you discover that Joe who has been your best friend for half a year actually is a tiefling when he looks perfectly normal.
This takes away from RP more than benefiting it, and people who now make the choice to play one might aswell throw away anything resembling subtlety until epics, After they get gear, that is.

BegoneThoth wrote:
Lastly I think this whole situation would be better if planetouched people had to pick some aspect, and that's what was revealed. Such as "this character has unusual pupils" "this character seems to have oddly shaped feet" "this character moves with an almost supernatural grace" "you feel peace and calm when standing near this character."

This is verging on "CAPTAIN LAURICK HAS A NEARLY OMNISCIENT WIDE REACHING AND PERVASIVE SPY NETWORK INFORMING HIM ABOUT EVERY OUTCAST'S PERSONA" level of roleplay dictation.

Why do you feel that creativity should be stifled and replaced with mechanical systems?

Because the setting demands some races get treated specific ways, creativity be damned.