Feedback: Bard PGCC Changes

[AstralUniverse]

Orog death metal band.

[Quidix]

Should there be more Loremaster synergy?

This does feel relevant to this discussion given the coming rebuilds, and it has always saddened me that there is no reason mechanically to mix bard and loremaster, for what intuitively seems like the perfect fit to me.

For example, granting song progression at level 10 Loremaster would be great, and enable a 20 bard / 10 loremaster build. One would basically give up 3 epic bard feats and spellcasting for loremaster's rp cookies. If it is granted at 10, that makes other dips difficult, so balance should be easy to maintain (as any further dip would then give up lasting inspiration).

[AstralUniverse]

A song that scales with loremaster could be interesting. A loremaster secret that gives +X bardsong level would also be ineteresting. bard/loremaster is a RP focused build anyway.

[Kessarin]

My bard PC is a devout of Oghma, and I was also rather disappointed when I learned that the mechanics of Loremaster don't really do much of anything for bards. Some synchronization would be amazing!

Is there an estimated time frame for when rebuilds will start? Soon™ is the standard answer, but I'd like to tinker around on PGCC (now that I know it's a resource!) to make sure I don't mess up anything.

[Nitro]

To be fair, Loremaster doesn't really do anything for any class right now. You can build for loremaster but in almost all cases it's better to not take any LM levels across the board.

[Dreams]

I just RP bards as Loremasters, because... why would you take the class?

[AstralUniverse]

Fact is, people DO play loremaster, for whatever reason that may be, and for the bards of them I think it would be harmless and very fun interaction if there was some relation between bardsong and secret of Artisian or something alike. And be surprised, if you look close enough and you really love numbers, you can find some instances where loremaster actually improves a build, but that's for another discussion.

[Alcomancer]

Sorry for double posting, but a suggestion as well. Would it be possible to make the max DR from Watcher's Vigil 5/- similar to things like Epic DR? This means it can stack with other DR sources like the PDK Heroic Shield and acts as a buff to the already lagging Knight Protector path. As it stands now it feels like a bit of a trap option to have it synergize with PDK but not stack with already existing PDK mechanics. I don't think it would be unbalancing to allow one specific build to give 5 DR that stacks with other DR sources at level 30.

Another thing to consider is that only 20/10 bard/pdk or full 30 bards will get +5/5. Level twenty bards will only get +3/3 and 16 bards will get +2/2 -- both of which won't do much seeing as everyone uses a standard +3 weapon at the least. A flat Bard/6 /- that stacked with the other DR sources would be nice and make it an option regardless of if you do 16 bard or 20 bard.

I'm pretty sure this is intentional. The team appears to have wanted to reward epic investment into the class with stronger abilities while not completely nukng the base songs. The CL 20 version will generally still be useful in pve but 20 bards may want to pick a different song if they're not investing.

[Skarain]

I've a question.

If you have "Class XYZ levels count for this song.", does it also increase the level of the Base Bard Song, or only the specialized song it claims to have synergy with?

[DangerDolphin]

I've a question.

If you have "Class XYZ levels count for this song.", does it also increase the level of the Base Bard Song, or only the specialized song it claims to have synergy with?

Only the specialized song.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think the class synergies with certain songs should be re-added.

I understand it be a trap from the bard/X category, but I was looking at it from an X/bard-dip. And in the latter, it seemed fun.

[Quidix]

Bard/loremaster is a RP focused build anyway.

Some synchronization would be amazing!

To be fair, Loremaster doesn't really do anything for any class right now. You can build for loremaster but in almost all cases it's better to not take any LM levels across the board.

I just RP bards as Loremasters, because... why would you take the class?

Agree, agree, agree, agree. It's a shame bard/LM must be such as RP-only build, and sadly 20 bard / 10 LM is weaker than before as the 20 bard song was weakened (while level 30 bard song as broadly maintained / increased in power). Here's to hoping we see LM song progression as secret, or something similar.

The class song synergies for Bard/X are minor in context that they don't affect the base song in any way. In most cases, it is a few extra, specific, skill points.

[Gouge Away]

Fact is, people DO play loremaster, for whatever reason that may be, and for the bards of them I think it would be harmless and very fun interaction if there was some relation between bardsong and secret of Artisian or something alike. And be surprised, if you look close enough and you really love numbers, you can find some instances where loremaster actually improves a build, but that's for another discussion.

Yeah 10 levels is hard to justify right now but 3 or 4 loremaster levels can define a character. Getting an ESF ability like scry on a bard or ranger can be worth the minor hit to combat ability a different dip might bring.

A loremaster "secret" to synergize LM with your bard song and caster levels would be great and finally give a viable way to take 10 levels of loremaster.

[Kalgoon]

I agree with the above statements about Loremaster needing to stack with Bard somehow.

Loremaster feels like the non-magical side of Bard, with their skill-based utility. They're better at Languages. Why wouldn't their talent for tongues extend to song?

[Haroshia]

Not sure if it's just a character sheet display bug but when singing any bard song at level 20 bard I'm only seeing 1 bludgeoning damage added. I'm performing it with 58 perform. I tested punching a dummy as well but since all physical damage is kinda grouped together it's hard to tell. I was swinging for a max of 12 with my fists before song. Sang Song 0. Swing for a max of 14.

[DangerDolphin]

Not sure if it's just a character sheet display bug but when singing any bard song at level 20 bard I'm only seeing 1 bludgeoning damage added. I'm performing it with 58 perform. I tested punching a dummy as well but since all physical damage is kinda grouped together it's hard to tell. I was swinging for a max of 12 with my fists before song. Sang Song 0. Swing for a max of 14.

Good catch, it was being added at 21!

[WarriorMage]

Now that bards were granted 20% arcane spell failure reduction (same as warlocks) with the still spell feat, it is worth pointing out that they should also earn the uncanny dodge feat, not unlike warlocks, so they may make use of light and medium armor, without their DEX mod being completely neglected when caught flat footed.

All other classes that make use of lighter armor are already granted the uncanny dodge feat (barbarian, warlock, spellsword, rogue, monk, etc).

[Haroshia]

Gonna drop a suggestion here that will probably get rocks thrown at me, but here goes.

Is it possible to make bard song AC not stack with Divine Shield AC?

If it is I can make a pretty solid case with numbers of why it's a good idea.

[DangerDolphin]

Now that bards were granted 20% arcane spell failure reduction (same as warlocks) with the still spell feat, it is worth pointing out that they should also earn the uncanny dodge feat, not unlike warlocks, so they may make use of light and medium armor, without their DEX mod being completely neglected when caught flat footed.

All other classes that make use of lighter armor are already granted the uncanny dodge feat (barbarian, warlock, spellsword, rogue, monk, etc).

Good point, we will investigate removing it from some of these classes.

Gonna drop a suggestion here that will probably get rocks thrown at me, but here goes.

Is it possible to make bard song AC not stack with Divine Shield AC?

If it is I can make a pretty solid case with numbers of why it's a good idea.

This would break Div Bards which shouldn't be needed with the Timestop changes.

[Drowboy]

Don't start removing uncanny dodge until nwns combat stops flatfooting you for no reason every other fight.

[WarriorMage]

Don't start removing uncanny dodge until nwns combat stops flatfooting you for no reason every other fight.

This is precisely the reason why I suggested giving bards uncanny dodge. Not removing it from other classes.

If bards are kept as is, there is no point in being offered a 20% asf reduction. Bards will just be played as they were before. Wearing full plate and casting stilled spells. This change would be mostly a quality of life improvement, as you could wear a masterly elven chain and cast spells that are not stilled. And it wouldn't go without a cost.

In order to reach the max DEX mod from elven armor, a base 8 DEX bard would need to enchant at least 5 pieces of gear, and the rest would be added from potions.

As is, without uncanny dodge, the 20% asf reduction feels more like a trap. That DEX is just going to be ignored left and right.

[Haroshia]

Now that bards were granted 20% arcane spell failure reduction (same as warlocks) with the still spell feat, it is worth pointing out that they should also earn the uncanny dodge feat, not unlike warlocks, so they may make use of light and medium armor, without their DEX mod being completely neglected when caught flat footed.

All other classes that make use of lighter armor are already granted the uncanny dodge feat (barbarian, warlock, spellsword, rogue, monk, etc).

Good point, we will investigate removing it from some of these classes.

Gonna drop a suggestion here that will probably get rocks thrown at me, but here goes.

Is it possible to make bard song AC not stack with Divine Shield AC?

If it is I can make a pretty solid case with numbers of why it's a good idea.

This would break Div Bards which shouldn't be needed with the Timestop changes.

It doesn't exactly break Div bards. They're still "Better" than non-div, just not by such a huge margin. Keep in mind given the hard cap on magical stat increases and things like Templar Armor you're not exactly making a sacrifice to stack charisma.

So I'm going to use A Capella Aria to compare, since it's kinda the "solo" song. Going to compare AC/Damage, and not really calculate unisaves, even though the clear winner there is obviously divine grace. That's just bananas for saves.

So let's say you go 25 bard/5 fighter

-Charisma does pretty much nothing in this build, except allow you to hit the magic 60 perform cap. Let's go crazy and assume the max +6 magical con mod with 18 con. That's getting you 60 HP over the Bardadin below.
-You get a total of 7 bonus AC. 1 from fighter, 4 from base bard song, 2 from Aria.
-You're getting 10 bonus damage. +6 damage from spec/epic spec, 2 from base bard song, and 2 from Aria
-You get effectively 3 more feats to play with, assuming you consider Power Attack a feat tax. This will likely go to Knockdown/Imp Knockdown and a QoL feat like Craft Wand since you don't want to be casting, which is admittedly nice.


And now 25 bard/5 paladin
- Let's be realistic and assume you get the max cha and con mod in this build, so +6 magical mod to both. We can also assume 16 cha and 14 con. That means only 180 more Bonus HP, which assuming you have toughness and a positive natural con mod still puts you over the magic 400 number I've seen thrown around to not get exploded in Timestop.
-You get a total of 15 bonus AC. 9 from Divine Shield, 4 from base bard song, 2 from Aria.
-You get a total of 13 bonus damage. 9 from Divine Might, 2 from bard song, 2 from aria
-You're out 3 feats.

And now, to be real crazy and make number go big, let's go 20 bard/5 fighter/5 paladin.
- Gonna assume the same stat spread as above.
- You get a total of 14 bonus AC, so one less than the Bardadin. 9 from divine shield, 1 from fighter, 3 from base song, 1 from aria
- You get a total of 19(!) bonus damage. 9 from Divine Might, 6 from Spec/Epic Spec, 2 from bard song, 2 from Aria.
- I don't think you can fit knockdown/imp knockdown because of how epic bonus feats work. I think you're only out 2 feats though.
- You're providing 1 less AC to your group here and...that's about it.

Conclusion
If you stop bard song from stacking to AC and damage, you achieve near parity with a non-divine dip assuming Divine Might/Shield are active but the div dip is still better. The 25/5 divdip with just song active will have 1 less AC and 6 less damage than a 25/5 fighter, but the saves will also be a whole lot better. With Might/Shield Active, the divdip goes to 1 less bonus damage fighter but 2 more AC, which is a pretty fair tradeoff. You lose knockdown/imp knockdown and probably craft wand or something, but still have the big saves. The 20/5/5 build is probably the most viable. With Divine Shield active You're getting 3 more AC than a 25/5 fighter, 1 more than a 25/5 div dip. Damage wise, you're still getting +5 net damage with Divine Might active. This is with your songs STILL buffing your party.

Basically, this creates tradeoffs. You trade HP for higher saves and higher AC, or group support for damage and even HIGHER personal AC. You trade some feats for bigger raw numbers but not such massively bigger raw numbers that it's a no-brainer. Maybe I've done the numbers wrong here but I think this fix would stop the "Div dip is the only way to bard" mentality.

[Itikar]

I would rather have divine shield not stack with bard song, and it would make sense, really, than having the time stop changes.

That said, I think that divine bards are already too better than all other bards, for divine shield to be allowed to stack with bard song.

Right now any bard that is not evil or lawful good is essentially subpar. Not making it stack would at least reduce the discrepancy that makes bards of other alignments uncommon.

Haroshia illustrates it quite well.

[Zavandar]

people assume that div dips are required to have good saves. a 25/5 bard/fighter can still have good saves. it would just gear uni/specific save instead of cha. bard is ref/will, fighter is fort. very possible to get high 30s in all saves.

the current meta spread for div is 26/4, not 25/5 (26 bard is a bonus feat, you take the 4 div pre epic for apr, and bard has disc so no reason to take a 5th). it does not get toughness. it is too feat-tight.

20/5/5 bard/fighter/paladin isn't the spread you'd do. it'd be 21/6/3 or a minor variation thereof (12/5/3 pre epic). you would have 5 epic feats (4 general, 1 from fighter 6). they would be: epic weapon focus, armor skin, esf: perform, lasting inspiration, and epic weapon spec.

also nerfing div dips for bards won't change the "div dip is the only way to bard" mentality. it just means you're going to have even less bards. 26/4 is already very strong but you don't see many of them. removing the big swing of div ac won't help.

which comes to your statement: if you stop bard song from stacking to AC and damage, you achieve near parity with a non-divine dip assuming Divine Might/Shield are active.

since comparable saves can be achieved on a div-less bard, with your proposed changes.. why would you go div? if you have to maintain div shield/div might just to be comparable, what's the incentive?

[Preytoria]

Divine Bard is still best bard. And probably always will be. Removing Div Shield and bard song from stacking would murder them. Also, bards wouldn't be able to party effectively with /any/ divine-warrior. Bard just isn't a very good class outside of bard song. 6 hp per level, 4 skills per level, 6th level spellcasting, 3/4 AB. It's just not very good at anything. 26/4 is just a combination that does wonders as far as stacking bonuses. I think the the new bard song scaling will help with making other combinations of classes with a minor dip in bard be appealing. I'd still like to see a bit more 'leg up' for 27+ bard, however.

Edit: Don't get me wrong: Bard song and curse song are AMAZING abilities.