Fall 2021 Balance Adjustment Megathread

[RedGiant]

Haste is dispellable. Blinding speed has a cooldown. Monks are virtually impossible to escape from or to catch if they are running away. The only other class like that is shadowdancer with HiPS which I've said before is being removed when we rework the class. The rules of engagement for monks are very different than any other class because a well played monk is never going to die, and that sometimes carries over to their rp, consciously or not. Anyone choosing to fight another player should have to weigh the consequence that their actions could lead to their own death, and that lack of commitment makes some classes have an ability to control their own narrative with little consequence and that is not what arelith is about.

We’re discussing bringing it back up in a scaling manner based on monk levels, but it won’t be to 150. Probably start at 110 and go to 125 at 30 monk, but it’s not set in stone and I wouldn’t expect any higher than that.

I appreciate these answers, but offer some quibbling.

While monks do indeed have an advantage in mobility, that advantage has been a staple of the class in DnD certainly in 3.5 and even through 5.0. I just don't think dropping it is the answer, especially when the game supplies counters to which the staff has added generously over the years. I don't mean to be pedantic, but movement can be slowed or even arrested by anything that induces a movement speed reduction or a relevant status (prone, stun, paralysis, etc.) We have tons of these in game, some of which are saveless and/or ignore spell resistance. The staggering amount of spells that come to play here cannot be ignored and here it helps to count not only the obvious (entangle, web, spike growth, vine mine, Bigby's, etc.) but also the less so (acid fog, great thunderclap, hellball, etc.).

I do think its interesting we seem to be moving in the direction of an movement action economy, but I think your description of monks and shadowdancers as unkillable is hyperbole. Even skilled players who have faced people that know what they are doing with the tools on the table, even as they are now, can and do lose.

[[[Edit: D'oh, points already made by others, but I second them anyway.]]]
Not to start a separate rant here, but I am much more worried about new warlock as the pinnacle of the movement action economy, especially Feylock, which comes armed to the teeth with infinite disablers AND infinite haste.

Also, blinding speed is on a cooldown, except when its not. Rogue 30 for life!

[Kenji]

Hello all,

Some have presented valid concerns and even coined the terms "balance whack-a-mole" and stated that the team should "balance the meta as a whole" as if balancing can be done in one stroke. Writing one line of sentence to voice expectation versus using the tools, learning the 2-decade-old game syntax, and working within the engine limitations are two very different things, therefore, I cordially invite you all to:

1. Identify a problem in the meta
2. Provide a solution to said problem
3. Theorycraft if the said solution will have a ripple effect to other stuff
4. VERY IMPORTANT - can this be implemented given the tools and engine limitations that we have?
5. What happens after implementing the said solution: a shift in meta, a rise in certain archetypes, a decline in certain builds, or etc.
6. Anything else you can think of

Let me drive again at number 4:
For example, some have presented granting UBAB progression for weapons with 20 levels of monk, and yet that's really just not possible due to engine limitations of how 2da stuffs work. But when these types of "solutions" are presented as if they're the one solution that the team hasn't thought of and kept being echoed, it creates bloat in the feedback. This doesn't just apply to monk UBAB "solution", but to many other presented solutions, as well. We don't always have the time or energy to explain why some aren't feasible every single time they come up.

What we can do is actually remove UBAB progression completely and simply implement flurry of blows to work with those "monk weapons" to allow an extra APR. After that, adjust the damage output to be similar to previous levels. This is a more approachable solution. However, do we expect everyone to have the knowledge to present a workable solution? No.

Before anyone snarkily states "Problem: Loremageddon, Solution: revert to UMD meta", it's not the first time we've all heard it nor will it be the last.

Truth is, both players and devs have done a lot of #1 and #2, but #3 with valid #4 are scarce. This leads to many of these "identified problems and their solutions" not really bearing any fruit which eventually leads to frustration on all sides.

Onto the next part -

Some asked for transparency on the mechanical changes - on the extreme, this means for every little discussion or concern that we have, we discuss it out on the forums, a format that is poorly suited for such form of discussion. But we do have another platform that is better suited for this and we actually HAVE been more transparent than ever before by utilizing - you guessed it:

Discord

I know this will enrage some without the full context, but Discord is a fast and easy format for us to bounce ideas off of actual players playing a certain class and have months or even years of live server experiences. And we have been doing so, this process isn't shown on the forums, which brings us to the next point -

When players opt out of Discord, they opt out of a quick way to get within our earshot for their concerns. Forums are formated for long and thoughtful posts, and that's what we get here on the forums: after something is presentable and complete, then one gets the view of the project.

Vice versa, if one abuse Discord to send the devs destructive criticisms and emotional complaints that have nothing to do with mechanics, it also drowns out those collected and reasonable voices like it very often do on the forums. There's a reason why we remained silent at times because we can finally focus our time and energy on something more productive than attempting to do the impossible: please everyone involved.

This is not to say everyone should hop on and use discord. For those who want to be included even in the smallest rumors or teasers, well, here's an open invitation:
https://discord.gg/arelith (Official Arelith discord channel)

Again, one doesn't always have to join. But know that if one chooses not to, please don't expect us to discuss every single changes that are to come because the forums are rather poorly geared for that.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

Gar said some things I'm sure everyone read, no need to repost.

Irongron said some things I'm sure everyone read, no need to repost.

If you want to make the dungeons harder in general, especially for people who solo and run through these things ate lightning speed (guilty of this here!)

You need more swarms. Think the boss map of goblin town only scarier, or the gnolls when you are on level (14-25) and the ones across the way see you enter the map. Its just never going to be difficult enough to take down groups of 3-5 at a time unless you make even the easy spawns murder bots with high ab, and then no one will do the dungeons. Mind you its always going to be really hard to balance between what people can do solo in a pinch and what will be challenging to a group, so going too hard this route may eliminate solo dungeoning more then you intended too.

I think that's enough for a random post in a random thread, since most other ideas are just variations of those two cores and this advice is unsolicited after all

Please don't make dungeons harder.

Harder dungeons stifle RP, not encourage it.

Currently, dungeons I feel are at a perfect balance.

I never solo, but I usually duo due to gameplay preferences, timezone and character archetype.

Current dungeon design allows me and my duo to use only long-term buffs ( I hate buffs that last round/cl with a burning passion for anything but bossfights or minibosses) and fight our way through the dungeon through a heavy use of emotes and verbal communication.

Were dungeons harder, we would need to use buffs that last round/cl. Round/cl buffs don't last long enough to emote out treating an injury, casting a spell or disabling traps and opening locks. If round/cl buffs are forced, people will be forced to no-RP run and dash through dungeons.

I've tried an NWN1 server where area difficulty was so high, you needed a party of six AND round/cl buffs. Even me and my partner ended up being forced to play in a way we both hate, else we just died - using gross powerbuilds that made us feel dirty.


Please don't make dungeons harder. They're presently the perfect balance to allow for players that prefer a slow-paced, well-narrated adventure to enjoy the server. They're in fact the best designed dungeons out of all NWN1 and NWN2 servers me and my partner tried. Arelith as it is, is the first server where PvE feels both rewarding AND in-character.

[xf1313]

I just want to scream one thing, are HIPS going to be removed? Noooooo! Shadowdancer please, great at hiding is what Shadowlords do! Well, unless pc is permanently turned into a shadow, I’d love that.

[Good Character]

I just want to scream one thing, are HIPS going to be removed? Noooooo! Shadowdancer please, great at hiding is what Shadowlords do! Well, unless pc is permanently turned into a shadow, I’d love that.

HiPS in its current iteration allows the hider to break people's action queue and flat foot them.

[Its_a_jelly]

Why was monk speed nerfed?

It has already been nerfed/capped to the point that anyone could be just as fast with a simple potion or haste spell (or blinding speed or sprint or...).

Monk speed is what makes playing a monk fun. Please bring it back...thanks.

Haste is dispellable. Blinding speed has a cooldown. Monks are virtually impossible to escape from or to catch if they are running away. The only other class like that is shadowdancer with HiPS which I've said before is being removed when we rework the class. The rules of engagement for monks are very different than any other class because a well played monk is never going to die, and that sometimes carries over to their rp, consciously or not. Anyone choosing to fight another player should have to weigh the consequence that their actions could lead to their own death, and that lack of commitment makes some classes have an ability to control their own narrative with little consequence and that is not what arelith is about.

Thanks for the reply.

I don't PvP, so I can't really relate. However, I do know that I would probably get pwned if I ever tried to PvP - speed or no speed. Having "full" monk speed would be nice to run away and avoid PvP, I guess. However, it takes a 15 level commitment to get there - I think that's a pretty good trade off. Also, what about people on horses? Don't they have an undispelable speed boost? (I have no idea, my character doesn't ride horses) Do they have to commit 15 levels in a class to get it?

Anyway, I don't expect you to keep answering my questions, and I appreciate your time. That said, I think this is a deal breaker for me. I know losing one casual player is no big deal to Arelith, but monk speed is what makes the class so much fun to play (and other classes torture - so slow). So, if monk speed is out, I guess I need to go find a server with less of an emphasis on PvP. Thanks.

[xf1313]

I just want to scream one thing, are HIPS going to be removed? Noooooo! Shadowdancer please, great at hiding is what Shadowlords do! Well, unless pc is permanently turned into a shadow, I’d love that.

HiPS in its current iteration allows the hider to break people's action queue and flat foot them.

Hm? Is it about pvp advantage... that I would have no idea because I don’t pvp and new to this island. But potion of invisible can do the same I assume.

Well, I just wish Shadowdancer stay as Shadowdancer, or give it something cool that fits the name Shadowlord. Or else this class loss it’s charm

[ltlukoziuz]

I just want to scream one thing, are HIPS going to be removed? Noooooo! Shadowdancer please, great at hiding is what Shadowlords do! Well, unless pc is permanently turned into a shadow, I’d love that.

HiPS in its current iteration allows the hider to break people's action queue and flat foot them.

Hm? Is it about pvp advantage... that I would have no idea because I don’t pvp and new to this island. But potion of invisible can do the same I assume.

Well, I just wish Shadowdancer stay as Shadowdancer, or give it something cool that fits the name Shadowlord. Or else this class loss it’s charm

Potion is not instant, causes attack of opportunity and is countered by See Invisibility. Entering stealth however is only countered by True Sight (which is heavily restricted).

And well, Shadowdancer still has something cool - the shadow which guards them, letting you cause sneak attacks on yourself while being defensive buffer.

[Ebonstar]

......, I guess I need to go find a server with less of an emphasis on PvP. Thanks.

This may be from one casual player, but it brings something to light. Since when do alot of the changes cater to those who thrive on PvP, and when did we become an action server?

HiPS being tossed, all speed from Monks be tossed. This seems to be removing RP things to cater to those who have to be killing machines.

Now sure we dont need Amadeo speed from ages past when you would literally blink and all you saw was a dust trail. But perhaps in all the balancing we have missed what makes certain classes enjoyable.

Would we remove Hellballs and other epic spells from Mages? or Whirlwind attacks from Weaponmasters? of course not.

I understand people saying oh we have to get rid of HiPS from SD because it makes it so we cant find them to hit them. But that is the purpose afterall. It already got nerfed from lvl1 to level5 to whatever it is now. seems to be alot of RP element nerfing and no PvP nerfing.

Can we not kill what makes classes interesting in the name of balance?

sometimes the mega tank destroyers have to face someone they just cant roll over with their Epic sword of mass Destruction. Its what keeps them a bit humble. Gods Forbid those players have to plan a fight instead of click to win.

Imagine if Shadowdancers actually had all their normal class tricks available, then moving HiPS to higher levels wouldnt be so bad.
Big bad sword man gets in the Dancers face, and the Dancer just steps into the shadow and is now 50 ft away with a chance to escape. And yes i have seen Shadowwalking work very well as a way to avoid confrontation.

Or Druids using a tree totem to treewalk to a safe place ( one way Teleportation)

I know some people have to be tired of nearly every caster being a teleportation machine just because they chose two feats. Saw five just recently having a short talk and then five rifts going different places, when there was a portal literally around the corner.

Please lets not just nerf or gank more classes in the name of balance to make swordboys the only ones happy. This may be the reason we have had so much issue with those whose only goals are to be murderhobos. Dont let this be when the RP died.

[Arienette]

Monk is a defensive class. It is difficult enough to kill or disable one in combat, even more so if they've decided to flee.

The comparisons given are not defensive classes. Many will burn their blinding speed as combat begins.

That said, speed is a defining quality of the monk archetype. I would not mind a slight increase after we've seen this play out.

We’re discussing bringing it back up in a scaling manner based on monk levels, but it won’t be to 150. Probably start at 110 and go to 125 at 30 monk, but it’s not set in stone and I wouldn’t expect any higher than that.

I would like to reiterate my suggestion to allow monks to keep their full speed outside of combat.

[-XXX-]

I cordially invite you all to:

1. Identify a problem in the meta
2. Provide a solution to said problem
3. Theorycraft if the said solution will have a ripple effect to other stuff
4. VERY IMPORTANT - can this be implemented given the tools and engine limitations that we have?
5. What happens after implementing the said solution: a shift in meta, a rise in certain archetypes, a decline in certain builds, or etc.
6. Anything else you can think of

OK, let me try this :

1. Run shooting - it's possible to make ranged attacks WHILE moving, which is incredibly OP.
2. All ranged/throwing weapons confer a [insert number]% movement speed penalty when equipped.
3. Ranged builds more interactive in PvP and less OP in PvE. Builds might require more considerations for defense.
4. Yes. Arelith used to have movement speed penalties attached to heavy armor before. I believe that this should be possible with ranged weapons too.
5. Decrease in ranged builds. Other low AC builds slightly more viable.
6. Constantly equipping and unequipping ranged weapons might become a little awkward.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Hello all,

Then some other stuff above.

Hi Kenji.

Great post, I envy your ability to convey your point while not overexplaining it.

Two things;

1) I don't think anyone expects you to discuss the changes before they happen with the general player pop. I know for me at least I just want to understand the vision which this conversation has helped a lot with. I'm still not sure I agree with it all, but I don't have to agree with everything to play here and have fun and I'm certain you don't need me to for validation that your path is right. Still, a little more on how often you expect the best hitters to hit the highest ACers (particularly with high stealth for corner stealthing), what will make a two stat build able to keep up with a 4 stat build in pvp since most people can't afford to put in the effort to get a 4 stat build up to snuff, and a clear picture on why divine dips/falchions crit range always seems to escape these changes would be welcome. But like I said in an earlier post I will wait for the second round to see if you guys address those things.

2) Using discord to get player input is totally fine. There were two things I had issues with though the way its been done over the last 4 months.

-Too much of the conversation happened on the 3.0. While I can see how that would make sense, since the 3.0's dominate voices are mostly pvp focused players and of course they would know a lot about pvp, its also a little inbred because so many defer to so few. "Player x knows a lot about mechanics, and he says 15 bard 15 rogue is broken so it must be true!". And then the parroting begins. Meanwhile, there are a lot of pretty mechanically savvy people that just don't like the vibe of the 3.0, and either don't talk there or aren't in the discord at all. I think you would be surprised by just how many of them there are. And you are missing out on their input.

-Devs have interjected their own opinions on these conversations when they come up, which not only creates an amplified version of the example leading to parroting above, but also makes the conversation completely useless because instead of hearing from different opinions and then applying them to your own thoughts to come up with a informed decision you are spending said conversation trying to convince the others you are right. Just to give a quick example of how I would approach these conversations on discord were I in a devs shoes, "Hey I have been hearing from a few people that class x is overpowered and now I'm curious, feel free to chime in if you can explain why." And you can totally do that even if the "few people" are just you talking to yourself while you are walking your dog or something and you already have an idea what you want to do. And since that can be done just as easy on the forums, you can even reach the discord adverse folks! Its just about covering potential blind spots after all, since at the end of the day for better or worse the decisions land in the hands of you guys.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

HiPS in its current iteration allows the hider to break people's action queue and flat foot them.

Hm? Is it about pvp advantage... that I would have no idea because I don’t pvp and new to this island. But potion of invisible can do the same I assume.

Well, I just wish Shadowdancer stay as Shadowdancer, or give it something cool that fits the name Shadowlord. Or else this class loss it’s charm

Potion is not instant, causes attack of opportunity and is countered by See Invisibility. Entering stealth however is only countered by True Sight (which is heavily restricted).

And well, Shadowdancer still has something cool - the shadow which guards them, letting you cause sneak attacks on yourself while being defensive buffer.

Part of the appeal of a shadowdancer to me, be it P&P or other servers (where shadowdancer's Shadow Jump is implemented), is the ability to easily escape from nasty situations.

Having your shadow out and tanking kind of kills it being essentially a Escape Artist. Hell, relying on shadows (creatures) at all kind of bars the class from anyone whose faith hates undead.

[Arienette]

I’ve never imagined a shadow dancers shadow to be undead. In my head cannon it is like… Peter Pan’s shadow. Just magic.

[Aren]

I’ve never imagined a shadow dancers shadow to be undead. In my head cannon it is like… Peter Pan’s shadow. Just magic.

The shadow is an outsider. Not undead per se.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

I’ve never imagined a shadow dancers shadow to be undead. In my head cannon it is like… Peter Pan’s shadow. Just magic.

Summon Shadow (Su)
At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion.

If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer loses 200 experience points per shadowdancer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per prestige class level. The shadowdancer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.

Shadow Jump (Su)

(Relevant part bolded)

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClas ... dancer.htm



If you wish for a direct quote from a source book:



(Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5 variant, p. 194)

There is no 3.0E or earlier FR specific lore surrounding Shadowdancers that I know of. Closest would be Tethyr's history with shadow magic. I found references to it in 5E sourcebooks, which are irrelevant in scope of Arelith. 2E would be applicable, if no 3E lore overwrites it. 3.5E perhaps counts, but nothing in 3.5E either.

As such, DMG 3.5E is our best source, and it clearly says shadows are undead.

[Aren]

I’ve never imagined a shadow dancers shadow to be undead. In my head cannon it is like… Peter Pan’s shadow. Just magic.

Summon Shadow (Su)
At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion.

If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer loses 200 experience points per shadowdancer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per prestige class level. The shadowdancer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.

Shadow Jump (Su)

(Relevant part bolded)

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClas ... dancer.htm



If you wish for a direct quote from a source book:



(Dungeon Master's Guide v.3.5 variant, p. 194)

There is no 3.0E or earlier FR specific lore surrounding Shadowdancers that I know of. Closest would be Tethyr's history with shadow magic. I found references to it in 5E sourcebooks, which are irrelevant in scope of Arelith. 2E would be applicable, if no 3E lore overwrites it. 3.5E perhaps counts, but nothing in 3.5E either.

As such, DMG 3.5E is our best source, and it clearly says shadows are undead.

[Inordinate]

-Too much of the conversation happened on the 3.0. While I can see how that would make sense, since the 3.0's dominate voices are mostly pvp focused players and of course they would know a lot about pvp, its also a little inbred because so many defer to so few. "Player x knows a lot about mechanics, and he says 15 bard 15 rogue is broken so it must be true!". And then the parroting begins. Meanwhile, there are a lot of pretty mechanically savvy people that just don't like the vibe of the 3.0, and either don't talk there or aren't in the discord at all. I think you would be surprised by just how many of them there are. And you are missing out on their input.

The devs are smarter than to take one or two people's word for it that might just be blindly parroting 'popular opinion', give them some credit.

I suspect it has a lot more to do with an active group that is willing to both educate others when people come in with questions AND excise people giving bad advice (which is VERY prevalent in officialcord). While there are voices that do as good a job as they can aiding in officialcord the fact that there is much more 'mass' of voices contributing and next to zero cultivation or moderation on good/bad advice (mostly because of volume, this is NOT a knock against the moderation it's not feasible to track it 24/7) means it's often rolling dice for feedback.

I can count on numerous occasions of someone coming into #character-build-advice for help, being giving reasonable guidance or feedback to dissuade someone from a bad idea, and summarily dismissing everyone's feedback or complaining about 'powerbuilders'. That sort of thing doesn't last long in 3.0.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

-Too much of the conversation happened on the 3.0. While I can see how that would make sense, since the 3.0's dominate voices are mostly pvp focused players and of course they would know a lot about pvp, its also a little inbred because so many defer to so few. "Player x knows a lot about mechanics, and he says 15 bard 15 rogue is broken so it must be true!". And then the parroting begins. Meanwhile, there are a lot of pretty mechanically savvy people that just don't like the vibe of the 3.0, and either don't talk there or aren't in the discord at all. I think you would be surprised by just how many of them there are. And you are missing out on their input.

The devs are smarter than to take one or two people's word for it that might just be blindly parroting 'popular opinion', give them some credit.

I suspect it has a lot more to do with an active group that is willing to both educate others when people come in with questions AND excise people giving bad advice (which is VERY prevalent in officialcord). While there are voices that do as good a job as they can aiding in officialcord the fact that there is much more 'mass' of voices contributing and next to zero cultivation or moderation on good/bad advice (mostly because of volume, this is NOT a knock against the moderation it's not feasible to track it 24/7) means it's often rolling dice for feedback.

I can count on numerous occasions of someone coming into #character-build-advice for help, being giving reasonable guidance or feedback to dissuade someone from a bad idea, and summarily dismissing everyone's feedback or complaining about 'powerbuilders'. That sort of thing doesn't last long in 3.0.

Ooof. Ok, first, nothing I said took away any credit from the devs. They are human beings with their own biases, and its good to hear from people who see things from different sides when you are making decisions. That was basically the entire point of my post, but I dig how you tried to make it look like I was insulting them in your defense of the 3.0.

As to the rest, well, its a longer topic than should be discussed in a thread that has nothing to do with it. But your experience with the 3.0 is very different then mine. Every time a debate came up in my memory about mechanics, within minutes there was a horde of regulars verbally beating on the person who had a thought that went against the status quo. I guess that's what you mean by excise, and I suppose that would be acceptable (regardless of what it says about them as people) if they were right 100% of the time. But while I do think there are a lot of smart people in that chat when it comes to mechanics there are no savants that can see all the angles, and I could easily list examples of how they got it wrong and now do things they laughed at 3 years ago like they were always hip. I'm just trying to teach myself not to take the bait every time, so I am going to refrain

[Archnon]

-Too much of the conversation happened on the 3.0. While I can see how that would make sense, since the 3.0's dominate voices are mostly pvp focused players and of course they would know a lot about pvp, its also a little inbred because so many defer to so few. "Player x knows a lot about mechanics, and he says 15 bard 15 rogue is broken so it must be true!". And then the parroting begins. Meanwhile, there are a lot of pretty mechanically savvy people that just don't like the vibe of the 3.0, and either don't talk there or aren't in the discord at all. I think you would be surprised by just how many of them there are. And you are missing out on their input.

The devs are smarter than to take one or two people's word for it that might just be blindly parroting 'popular opinion', give them some credit.

I suspect it has a lot more to do with an active group that is willing to both educate others when people come in with questions AND excise people giving bad advice (which is VERY prevalent in officialcord). While there are voices that do as good a job as they can aiding in officialcord the fact that there is much more 'mass' of voices contributing and next to zero cultivation or moderation on good/bad advice (mostly because of volume, this is NOT a knock against the moderation it's not feasible to track it 24/7) means it's often rolling dice for feedback.

I can count on numerous occasions of someone coming into #character-build-advice for help, being giving reasonable guidance or feedback to dissuade someone from a bad idea, and summarily dismissing everyone's feedback or complaining about 'powerbuilders'. That sort of thing doesn't last long in 3.0.

Ooof. Ok, first, nothing I said took away any credit from the devs. They are human beings with their own biases, and its good to hear from people who see things from different sides when you are making decisions. That was basically the entire point of my post, but I dig how you tried to make it look like I was insulting them in your defense of the 3.0.

As to the rest, well, its a longer topic than should be discussed in a thread that has nothing to do with it. But your experience with the 3.0 is very different then mine. Every time a debate came up in my memory about mechanics, within minutes there was a horde of regulars verbally beating on the person who had a thought that went against the status quo. I guess that's what you mean by excise, and I suppose that would be acceptable (regardless of what it says about them as people) if they were right 100% of the time. But while I do think there are a lot of smart people in that chat when it comes to mechanics there are no savants that can see all the angles, and I could easily list examples of how they got it wrong and now do things they laughed at 3 years ago like they were always hip. I'm just trying to teach myself not to take the bait every time, so I am going to refrain

I thought the point of official was to eliminate the need for non-official discords, including 3.0. I have to admit, I was a little shocked myself to hear that the COT nerf was discussed on 3.0 and not mentioned in the official discord prior to going live. If we are going to advocate the use of discord to vet these things, then it really needs to be in the official, or not at all. Frankly, I'm fine with the dev/admin team making decisions without input as long as that is up front. It is IG's server and we are just tagging along. But saying we should be on discord to participate in the conversation, but only on the non-official, carefully curated discord doesn't really respond to the critique here.

[garrbear758]

The devs are smarter than to take one or two people's word for it that might just be blindly parroting 'popular opinion', give them some credit.

I suspect it has a lot more to do with an active group that is willing to both educate others when people come in with questions AND excise people giving bad advice (which is VERY prevalent in officialcord). While there are voices that do as good a job as they can aiding in officialcord the fact that there is much more 'mass' of voices contributing and next to zero cultivation or moderation on good/bad advice (mostly because of volume, this is NOT a knock against the moderation it's not feasible to track it 24/7) means it's often rolling dice for feedback.

I can count on numerous occasions of someone coming into #character-build-advice for help, being giving reasonable guidance or feedback to dissuade someone from a bad idea, and summarily dismissing everyone's feedback or complaining about 'powerbuilders'. That sort of thing doesn't last long in 3.0.

Ooof. Ok, first, nothing I said took away any credit from the devs. They are human beings with their own biases, and its good to hear from people who see things from different sides when you are making decisions. That was basically the entire point of my post, but I dig how you tried to make it look like I was insulting them in your defense of the 3.0.

As to the rest, well, its a longer topic than should be discussed in a thread that has nothing to do with it. But your experience with the 3.0 is very different then mine. Every time a debate came up in my memory about mechanics, within minutes there was a horde of regulars verbally beating on the person who had a thought that went against the status quo. I guess that's what you mean by excise, and I suppose that would be acceptable (regardless of what it says about them as people) if they were right 100% of the time. But while I do think there are a lot of smart people in that chat when it comes to mechanics there are no savants that can see all the angles, and I could easily list examples of how they got it wrong and now do things they laughed at 3 years ago like they were always hip. I'm just trying to teach myself not to take the bait every time, so I am going to refrain

I thought the point of official was to eliminate the need for non-official discords, including 3.0. I have to admit, I was a little shocked myself to hear that the COT nerf was discussed on 3.0 and not mentioned in the official discord prior to going live. If we are going to advocate the use of discord to vet these things, then it really needs to be in the official, or not at all. Frankly, I'm fine with the dev/admin team making decisions without input as long as that is up front. It is IG's server and we are just tagging along. But saying we should be on discord to participate in the conversation, but only on the non-official, carefully curated discord doesn't really respond to the critique here.

This is blatantly 100% false. I talked about the divine champion nerf, details on our plans, and answered questions about it on the official discord in mid October before anything was even finalized. Additionally, nerfing divine champion was 100% my idea from the start, and something I started brainstorming when we were first discussing moving thundering rage to 20 barb in March/April. The discussions about it on discord were after I mentioned it on both discord’s, not where I got the idea. The final mechanics came from discussions between myself, kenji, and kalopsia with irongron giving final approval once we’d settled on the details.

I am active in official and 3.0 which give very differing opinions and cover more of our player base than just using one which helps me make better informed decisions. I really don’t see anything wrong with that and I’m honestly not sure why you’d want me to lessen my resources when I’m making decisions that affect everyone on the server. The more data points I can get the easier my job is.

[Inordinate]

This is what I meant by

The devs are smarter than to take one or two people's word for it that might just be blindly parroting 'popular opinion', give them some credit.

by the way. What might have been considered tribalism defending the 3.0 server and its practices was highlighting that it's not cut and dry that one is better than the other. Rather both have different things to offer. The fact that garrbear happened to be more visible discussing things related to nerfs in 3.0 and people heard about it was merely because of the volume thing I mentioned. The fact I also was one who regularly linked people to said discussions that were totally open to the public is another reason why I felt it prudent to respond.

Have a bit of faith.

[Archnon]

Meaning no disrespect to you and the team at all Garr and I believe you that you discussed this on both. Frankly, I never saw it on the main discord, though I buy the whole noise argument. Conversations like this are likely to get drowned out in the official discord when people are planning personal builds, griping about their own dev dreams, or just chatting.

I can also admit as a regular and active user on the Arelith general discord that the first I heard about the COT nerf was on the Brog official discord and what was referenced was the conversation in 3.0 and not the main discord.

My goal is not to criticize your methods. I think getting as much information as possible is always good. I merely want to share an experience from one player, so as to help clarify potential perceptions about the use of discord regarding Arelith, since there was a strong reaction to the criticism of the use of 3.0. My point is that this perception is out there, for better or worse, and the team should be aware of it.

To speak more to the point of this thread (which has been derailed in more ways than humans can count), i do think all of these changes are phenomenal, and as always, may require some subtle shifts which I have faith the team will address. They all head in the right direction towards establishing and encouraging build diversity.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I wish more conversations happened on the forums. Things move so fast on discord it's easy to be left out if you're not around at just the right time when something in particular is being discussed.

[VibeKings]

I don't really care about the 3.0 discord, or the usage of discord by developers as a form of communication; times are changing, and the way people use the internet and talk to each other has changed significantly from 2007. Forums simply do not fill the same role they did years ago.

What does bother me is a certain translucency where very crucial and important updates are concerned, especially in a thread where many developers have replied with the ostensible goal of transparency. As many people now are aware, there were recent additions to loot tables in the form of UMD-restricted books which, in essence, more or less undo the entire "Loremageddon" change.

Now, anyone who knows me knows that I definitely don't have a problem with that. I think on the whole it is a good change, with a few caveats (namely, that they are loot drop only, and can't be crafted; such an essential suite of items shouldn't be at the mercy of RNG.) What I find extremely disagreeable is that there has been ZERO mention of these books anywhere but drops in Discord, and especially the 3.0 -- again, I stress, that these are informal channels, whether they are offhand mentions in the official Discord or in the 3.0 it makes no difference to my mind. There has been no forum post about a change that is GARGANTUAN in the significance of how it will affect the meta/balance/whatever. Not in the Updates, not in the Discord update channel, and not even here in these posts about intentions and transparency and so on.

I am not sure why this is the case, so instead I will just post the stats of these books for any interested player to look at. You can loot them from the same "magic" bookshelves that you can find things like summoning books or scroll drops in.