Why Play Wizard or Sorceror?

[-XXX-]

OK, first off the team has stated in the past on multiple occasions that stuff like IG stigma surrounding animation doesn't factor into class balance. Once we acknowledge that, then purely from a mechanical standpoint trading conju summons for necro summons isn't a bad deal. Some would even argue that's an improvement (at least for the time being - you never know when it comes to summons).

That being said, the core issue here is what has been my biggest pet peeve with specialist wizards from the get go - it's not me who doesn't want people to have fun, it's how these paths have been designed. The crux of the argument is that players would love to have their cake and eat it too when the very identity of the specialist wizard paths is built around the fact that they cannot.
You're literally shooting the messenger here.

And once again I reiterate that the thread has been derailed - there are underlying issues regarding both wizard and sorcerer classes that aren't being addressed by specialist wizard feedback here.
Frankly (and I say that fully appreciating all the work that went into it) I'd love nothing more than to see the whole module of specialist wizards just axed and vanilla wizard and sorcerer be made actually good instead.

---

Edits to fix grammar.

[Paint]

I'm going to keep complaining about it because it continues to be dumb. I don't really want an option that's comparable to the conjuration or necromancy summons anyways. Really, I just want a tanky low-damage summon that either has enough AC or enough regen to survive epics, or alternatively, some selectable option that makes wizard sturdy and stable enough to survive epics on its own well enough. We all know the tradeoff is there, but the feedback forum is literally here for people to talk about things they like and don't like about how things currently are.

I like the specializations. I like them conceptually. I think that they're good, and I think that they offer a way to express how one would like to play the wizard class, and specializations are in-line with 'paths' from other classes already. I'd be pretty disappointed if they disappeared, because that form of expression would just. Be gone, and there'd be one monolithic way to build and play a wizard, which to me, is the antithesis of what makes Arelith fun.

Honestly, I'd prefer if summons were nerfed into the ground unless you invested into summoning really hard, and having wizard's numbers assessed elsewhere, because I really hate the whole afk behind your summons and do nothing gameplay that wizards have found themselves pigeonhole'd into, but I kind of doubt that's going to happen. I don't begrudge people who -like- this playstyle, because it's laidback, but I don't really think it's fun, and I dislike being told that it's the only way to play a caster class, especially when there are literal examples from other classes that -can- summon where this is not the case.

[godhand-]

Although, since you mentioned using a trans spec as an arcane archer drow. Did you mean you used it with arcane archer levels? Did you dip your wizard levels below 24? Were you even able to use tensers still?

i ran 25/5 arcane archer as a drow.

i've considered a drow with xbow for the sweet hand-spinarette sneak damage. If i could get assassin approval (Which i'm ok with the fact i probably never will) you could do 25/5 assassin for some extra damages.

true strikes are easy enough to game and run away from to be honest.

Those numbers check out. I can't imagine the damage is very good on it

Realistically, no, the damage isn't any thing to write home about. 25ish per hit so not great. Hence why i've toyed with varying builds and ideas - the throwing knive hin was 25/5rogue - 3d6 sneaks isn't much but it helps.

Running with summons offsets the noodle-arm damage.

Illusion is nice because you can breach/disjunct NEPS - allowing lots of crippling strikes to weaken strength builds.
Necromancy has higher straight damage output.

PVE is pretty cruisy, i was able to solo certain (TM) epic dungeons for epic loot with no issues.

Edited bits for clarity

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

Yes it's the roleplay I was referring to. I would like to be able to roleplay these specs in the places I like to roleplay without shooting myself in the foot mechanically, and considering these specializations in description and deployment have nothing to do with undead, I'm really not sure why there's no option to not do that. That is the crux of the complaint. That's really all it is.

While I fully appreciate the "I'd like to play an evo specialist wizard and still hang around with my radiant heart buddies" argument, the same argument could also be made for a blackguard, pale master or a warlock.

Some classes are simply meant to shoehorn the player into certain style of RP and that's OK. The reasons for that can also be different than an overtly evil theme of the class - characters can resort to evil actions for reasons other than being a moustache twirling villain. It's up to the player to work with that.
The concern here was mechanical performance - namely the claim that half of the wizard specialists miss out on summons, which simply isn't true.

---

But this topic got massively derailed into a specialist wizard feedback, all while the "I think I was doing OK on my specialist wizard" argument does not even remotely address the main underlying issues originally brought up in this thread:

• Wiz/Sorc still being the only two classes with 1d4 HD
• Action economy disparity between dedicated spellcasters & melee classes
• Awkwardness of save or suck spells vs saves bloat
• Vancian spell system imposing a considerable resource limitation
• Spell disruption checks existing to add insult to injury

HP too low -> ok give us d6's

Action economy bad -> this is kind of a harder egg to crack, I am pretty sure it's an engine limitation that makes it so that you can't cast more than 2 spells (either through quicken or haste) per round. A lot of balance exists around the spellcasting action economy being what it is (like Timestop and how to use it). This shouldn't change.

Vancian spell economy -> I already have a suggestion to buff wiz/sorc infinicasting and/or adding spell refund chances like cloistered cleric, buffing that would solve that issue meaningfully for pve content, potentially.

save spells are bad -> git gud

specialists don't deserve to be playable -> wrong

Added note: Saving throw spells are also basically worthless in PVP. And in PVE you're still getting entirely outclassed.

The new changes to gear crafting will make this even worse. I've not had a single build I've made that can fail almost any saving throw on anything but a 1.

Another added note: Even mundane classes are able to do the cool stuff that you'd need to spend 3 feats to do as a wizard with all those bonus feats. I just don't see where this class fits in any group anymore.

Yeah I think loremaster having any epic spell focus abilities is a terrible idea if I'm being honest, and I play a fighter/wm/loremaster. Loremaster and the gear skill/saves bloat that's coming with the dweomer update (at some point) should make wizards feel kinda bad.

You can either take 21 levels of wizard and 3 feats to get access to a special ability, or you can take Skill Focus: Lore and 4 levels of a prestige class that also gives you the ability to read most of the scrolls in the game (which is an enormous enormous power boost to mundane characters). Kind of silly. Kind of really silly. Loremaster should have all its epic spell focus secrets removed.

[Anomandaris]

Yeah I think loremaster having any epic spell focus abilities is a terrible idea if I'm being honest, and I play a fighter/wm/loremaster. Loremaster and the gear skill/saves bloat that's coming with the dweomer update (at some point) should make wizards feel kinda bad.

You can either take 21 levels of wizard and 3 feats to get access to a special ability, or you can take Skill Focus: Lore and 4 levels of a prestige class that also gives you the ability to read most of the scrolls in the game (which is an enormous enormous power boost to mundane characters). Kind of silly. Kind of really silly. Loremaster should have all its epic spell focus secrets removed.

Keep in mind people like me use this on casters. There’s no reason I shouldn’t be able to get the ESF trick as an epic wizard for example through Loremaster. If you wanted to limit these epic spell tricks to epic casters that would be one thing. That said, I don’t have an issue with mundane’s getting access.

The issue with mundane’s access to these feats is the rest of the mundane’s capabilities (dmg, saves etc), not the access to scry or ward in my opinion.

Lore master is not the problem here. It’s just flavor in utility on top of a very powerful chassis.

[Kalthariam]

Still more app only assassins active in the game than Sorcerers (And that's after everyones probably logged into all their characters to get their Award Points.)

[Naghast]

Seems like wizard popularity is at a steady decline as well.

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

Yeah I think loremaster having any epic spell focus abilities is a terrible idea if I'm being honest, and I play a fighter/wm/loremaster. Loremaster and the gear skill/saves bloat that's coming with the dweomer update (at some point) should make wizards feel kinda bad.

You can either take 21 levels of wizard and 3 feats to get access to a special ability, or you can take Skill Focus: Lore and 4 levels of a prestige class that also gives you the ability to read most of the scrolls in the game (which is an enormous enormous power boost to mundane characters). Kind of silly. Kind of really silly. Loremaster should have all its epic spell focus secrets removed.

Keep in mind people like me use this on casters. There’s no reason I shouldn’t be able to get the ESF trick as an epic wizard for example through Loremaster. If you wanted to limit these epic spell tricks to epic casters that would be one thing. That said, I don’t have an issue with mundane’s getting access.

The issue with mundane’s access to these feats is the rest of the mundane’s capabilities (dmg, saves etc), not the access to scry or ward in my opinion.

Lore master is not the problem here. It’s just flavor in utility on top of a very powerful chassis.

We discussed this on discord today and some cool ideas were mentioned as far as loremaster specifically:

• make Wand Mastery a greater secret
• make Scroll Mastery a greater secret
• require all the Spell Focus related secrets require the character to be able to cast arcane spells, in order to take

This is a unrelated to making Wizard/Sorc more fun to play though.

Fun stupid idea also brought up in the discord, which I am almost positive will not gain any traction, but I thought it was nifty enough to mention - let pure wizard or sorcerers unlock a single level 10 spell at level 30, as a reward for being pure (which is generally regarded as a Very Bad Idea). Lore justification can be that you unlocked some dumb Netherese or Imaskari or High Elven Magic secret, up to player interpretation within reason. Make a few options for players that are basically "a better epic spell" and bam, pure caster is suddenly really nifty. Also give them a bonus for rituals (this may already exist but I don't understand how rituals work if I'm being completely honest.) Just, some combination of flavorful and mechanical stuff. I think that more than most classes, pure wiz/sorc should be heavily rewarded, because you give up SO MUCH by doing it. No discipline. No tumble. No armor proficiencies. No UMD. No cool prestige class abilities. No loremaster stuff, even! Loremasters are better at using the things you scribe, than you are! Pure wiz/sorc deserves a big, big scooby snack at level 30, imo.

[godhand-]

Fun stupid idea also brought up in the discord, which I am almost positive will not gain any traction, but I thought it was nifty enough to mention - let pure wizard or sorcerers unlock a single level 10 spell at level 30, as a reward for being pure (which is generally regarded as a Very Bad Idea). - snip - Pure wiz/sorc deserves a big, big scooby snack at level 30, imo.

pure sorc gets epic warding as a feat at 30 - trade divine dip for 1500 DR soak
/thread.

[aplethoraof]

We discussed this on discord today and some cool ideas were mentioned as far as loremaster specifically:

• make Wand Mastery a greater secret
• make Scroll Mastery a greater secret
• require all the Spell Focus related secrets require the character to be able to cast arcane spells, in order to take

This is a unrelated to making Wizard/Sorc more fun to play though.

Fun stupid idea also brought up in the discord, which I am almost positive will not gain any traction, but I thought it was nifty enough to mention - let pure wizard or sorcerers unlock a single level 10 spell at level 30, as a reward for being pure (which is generally regarded as a Very Bad Idea). Lore justification can be that you unlocked some dumb Netherese or Imaskari or High Elven Magic secret, up to player interpretation within reason. Make a few options for players that are basically "a better epic spell" and bam, pure caster is suddenly really nifty. Also give them a bonus for rituals (this may already exist but I don't understand how rituals work if I'm being completely honest.) Just, some combination of flavorful and mechanical stuff. I think that more than most classes, pure wiz/sorc should be heavily rewarded, because you give up SO MUCH by doing it. No discipline. No tumble. No armor proficiencies. No UMD. No cool prestige class abilities. No loremaster stuff, even! Loremasters are better at using the things you scribe, than you are! Pure wiz/sorc deserves a big, big scooby snack at level 30, imo.

I don't think those are good ideas at all. Maybe as lesser secrets, if LM got an additional secret at level 1 to compensate. Wand/Scroll mastery as lesser secrets would be kind of unnecessary and stupid, but not an overly harmful idea (still a dumb one that doesn't really solve any issues).

Giving PCs access to liberator/vigilante feats as greater secrets WOULD be a good idea. Stuff like Secret Identity, Nightmare Tactics, etc. The reason ESF cookies are picked, is because they are the only picks. Offer choice. See what happens. I BET the more juicy "mundane" feats would be picked more.

LM is taken for fun. It's abilities are interesting. No-one takes it because it is more powerful. Fighter/Cav/BG > Fighter/LM/BG. Fighter/WM/BG > Fighter/LM/BG. Fighter/Rogue/WM > Fighter/LM/WM. Etcetera.

That said, none of this addresses wizard/sorcerer.

Personally, I think wizard is not in a dismal place. Sorcerer arguably is, more-so. But neither are like.... Shaman-tier levels of bad.

If one wanted to make it more enticing, I'd do this:
-- Boost the rate of Arcane Flux for wizards and sorcerers. Give sorcerers a higher rate than wizards, give specialist wizards a higher chance on their school, and give generalist wizards a higher chance in general. Put it somewhere in the 20 - 30% odds.
-- Make wizard/sorcerer only spellbound staffs that can go up to level 4/5 spells.
-- Make schools refund spells, similar to cleric paths. While doing this, let generalists refund spells they have ESFs in, at a slightly lower rate.

-- Give sorcerers a wild mage path. How do they not have this.
-- Give sorcerers the same +3 CL at 21 that wizards got. At the LEAST this can be given.
-- Give sorcerers +1 known spell across the board. At 21, give them 1 more level 1 spell. 22, another level 2 spell. 23, another level 3 spell. All the way to 29. At 30, give them a couple epic spells for free (who goes pure sorc?).
-- If you wanted to really be spicy, give sorcerers the same feats wizards get at 5/10/15/etc. How sorcerers never got that, I have no idea.

[PowerWord Rage]

LM is taken for fun. It's abilities are interesting. No-one takes it because it is more powerful. Fighter/Cav/BG > Fighter/LM/BG. Fighter/WM/BG > Fighter/LM/BG. Fighter/Rogue/WM > Fighter/LM/WM. Etcetera.

This particular sentence is debatable. But i don't see any harm in giving Loremaster Wand/Scroll Mastery except there're players who are already concerned that Loremaster class is giving too much perks to Martials.

No interesting or useful insights to be given for Wizard / Sorcerer Class...I tend to just play around whatever is given, on hand.

A little more insight on Loremaster is that it actually offers 2 extra AC, 1 extra AB (Weapon Trick) which adds on, at epic levels which does not affect BAB progression.
[ +1AC Dodge trick and +1 AC from Barkskin wand ( from making it +4 to +5 ) and of course, the +1 AB ]
Does it make it more gamebreaking? It does not. Does it make it more powerful in literal sense? Yes it does. But does it synergies well with all martial classes? Perhaps not yet but it's certainly synergies very well with more than half of the martial classes.

[Ruzuke]

LM is taken for fun. It's abilities are interesting. No-one takes it because it is more powerful. Fighter/Cav/BG > Fighter/LM/BG. Fighter/WM/BG > Fighter/LM/BG. Fighter/Rogue/WM > Fighter/LM/WM. Etcetera.

I am fairly certain with a three-level dip being able to open every lock, disable every trap, and use every scroll, wand, and magical item in the game is a powerful option. As an added bonus some nice little feats. 1/5 players do not take Lore Master because everyone is RPing as a scholar. It is a powerful PRC.

I would give sorcerer's some paths add in a once every fifteen minutes spell reset (restoring all spells).

I made a wizard because while it is not great I could get by. I would love a PRC for epic mage.

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

honestly I stopped reading that post after "nobody takes loremaster because it's powerful"

lol, lmao even

[Kythana]

It's more accurate to say that not everyone takes Loremaster for power. It has a variety of use cases, including QoL, languages, gathering for moneymaking, sailing, ect.

LM is just a bogeyman because it's popular. The power is vastly overstated, and is reinforced by PGCC pvp and theorycrafting instead of actual gameplay.

[Kalthariam]

"It's not strong, it's just popular"

Nearly 1/5 characters on the entire server have at least 3 levels in loremaster. It's at 17.7% popularity.

Loremasters are more common than Clerics and Bards, and are only outranked by Rogue/Warriors.

The next most popular prestige class is weapon master at 10.8% and it Rapidly drops from there.

Loremaster's power has been a slow process for some to figure out but loremasters are largely part of the reason (AT least in my opinion) traditional arcane casters have been pushed out of their niches.

Why commit to a subpar class, when you can just slap loremaster on whatever you want and get the epic cookie benefits anyways?

You are twice as likely to run into a Loremaster than a Wizard.
You are nearly 9 times more likely to run into a loremaster than a sorcerer.

Lore master can be slapped onto just about any martial build and give the already ridiculous consumable power creep even more powerful effects on Martial builds, while getting access to some of the magic benefits that EPIC spellcasters get from sinking 3 feats into it, and sink at least 21 levels into their spellcasting class for.

Loremasters just get to slap that stuff onto any martial build, improve scroll and wand usage, unlock usage of UMD, and unlock basically all the best skills arelith generally requires you to have for what? a 3-5 level dip? Not to mention 3 levels in loremaster is a +3 in reflex and Will saves, which are usually the weaker saves for martial classes, at the cost of what? 1 AB? (Assuming you don't take the lesser secret that just negates this loss.

Loremaster is an obscenely powerful class.

Familars? Loremaster Gets them
Rituals? Loremaster Can do them

Yeah sure it's a "Fun" class, but to pretend it's not grossly overpowered and provides a ridiculous amount of benefits for as little you have to put into it is silly.

Dragon Disciple is a 10 level Prestige Class, that has to take all 10 levels to effectively even be worth using, and that's locked behind pretty heavy reward costs, and it's nowhere near as impactful to the server as Loremaster is. Fun fact, you can't even do 20 Sorc / 10 RDD, because if you do you get utterly locked out of Epic Spellcasting! My Sorcerer had to be a 21/9.

Loremasters a 5 level class at maximum, and you can get a healthy chunk of the benefits just from a 3 level dip.

[-XXX-]

You can't really compare LM to WM, because LM fits more builds while being a much more versatile class.
The only issue I saw with it in terms of raw power was scroll mastery, which has been already addressed by lowering the CL of Disjunction cast from items.
If we are to use the player numbers here, I believe those still reflect LM being the "best mord for your buck" choice, which no longer applies.
Wouldn't be surprised if we saw a decline in LM numbers in the future TBH.

The gripe with LMs getting ESF cookies isn't a very good argument, because most melee LM builds aren't even taking any those, so clearly that's not the LM's main appeal. If there even is an argument to be made here, than it'd likely be one that spellcasters should be getting more out of those 3 feats.

[Anomandaris]

"It's not strong, it's just popular"

Nearly 1/5 characters on the entire server have at least 3 levels in loremaster. It's at 17.7% popularity.

Loremasters are more common than Clerics and Bards, and are only outranked by Rogue/Warriors.

The next most popular prestige class is weapon master at 10.8% and it Rapidly drops from there.

Loremaster's power has been a slow process for some to figure out but loremasters are largely part of the reason (AT least in my opinion) traditional arcane casters have been pushed out of their niches.

Why commit to a subpar class, when you can just slap loremaster on whatever you want and get the epic cookie benefits anyways?

You are twice as likely to run into a Loremaster than a Wizard.
You are nearly 9 times more likely to run into a loremaster than a sorcerer.

Lore master can be slapped onto just about any martial build and give the already ridiculous consumable power creep even more powerful effects on Martial builds, while getting access to some of the magic benefits that EPIC spellcasters get from sinking 3 feats into it, and sink at least 21 levels into their spellcasting class for.

Loremasters just get to slap that stuff onto any martial build, improve scroll and wand usage, unlock usage of UMD, and unlock basically all the best skills arelith generally requires you to have for what? a 3-5 level dip? Not to mention 3 levels in loremaster is a +3 in reflex and Will saves, which are usually the weaker saves for martial classes, at the cost of what? 1 AB? (Assuming you don't take the lesser secret that just negates this loss.

Loremaster is an obscenely powerful class.

Familars? Loremaster Gets them
Rituals? Loremaster Can do them

Yeah sure it's a "Fun" class, but to pretend it's not grossly overpowered and provides a ridiculous amount of benefits for as little you have to put into it is silly.

Dragon Disciple is a 10 level Prestige Class, that has to take all 10 levels to effectively even be worth using, and that's locked behind pretty heavy reward costs, and it's nowhere near as impactful to the server as Loremaster is. Fun fact, you can't even do 20 Sorc / 10 RDD, because if you do you get utterly locked out of Epic Spellcasting! My Sorcerer had to be a 21/9.

Loremasters a 5 level class at maximum, and you can get a healthy chunk of the benefits just from a 3 level dip.

As a lifer wizard/sorc player more or less I politely disagree. The issue is what martialscan do relative to Vancian casters, not LM as an addition to Martials. The issue pre-dates LM. I don’t care about the ESF abilities. The more useful thing for martials is refunds and higher cl on consumables to get a little more juice out of them, but it’s all stuff they already had access to just costs them less coin now.

LM also makes many Wiz/Sorc more fun to play and offers mechanical benefits sooo…. It’s not just martials that benefit.

[-XXX-]

Yeah, the most glaring issues are IMO the ones grandfathered from the base game which clearly didn't account for melee builds casually dishing out 3 digit damage numbers.

• d4HD - compensates for DR spells, but those a) aren't Wiz/Sorc exlusive anymore b) often get immediately breached anyway and c) the damage soak doesn't change much once we get to certain damage numbers.
  Proposed change: d4HD -> d6HD for Wiz/Sorc

• spell disruption checks - skills are capped which often results in concentration checks with impossible odds. It's a dysfunctional mechanic that's entirely unnecessary for class balance at this point.
  Proposed change: remove the spell disruption mechanic - concentration is still needed for defensive casting mode and to resist taunt/intimidate.

[A MAN DRUNK ON POWER]

I think concentration/disruption should still be able to stay, but just cap the DC at like 60.

Yeah cool you can crit for 180, if you are upset that doesn't disrupt the spellcaster then you have something wrong anyway because you should be PASTING any caster you're critting for that much, whether or not you disrupt 100% of their spells.

[Anomandaris]

Yeah, the most glaring issues are IMO the ones grandfathered from the base game which clearly didn't account for melee builds casually dishing out 3 digit damage numbers.

• d4HD - compensates for DR spells, but those a) aren't Wiz/Sorc exlusive anymore b) often get immediately breached anyway and c) the damage soak doesn't change much once we get to certain damage numbers.
  Proposed change: d4HD -> d6HD for Wiz/Sorc

• spell disruption checks - skills are capped which often results in concentration checks with impossible odds. It's a dysfunctional mechanic that's entirely unnecessary for class balance at this point.
  Proposed change: remove the spell disruption mechanic - concentration is still needed for defensive casting mode and to resist taunt/intimidate.

Behold several very obvious and simple changes that have been consistently highlighted by seasoned caster players for years now. These changes won’t disrupt balance across the board either!

We don’t need tenacity and a complete overhaul, just start here. Later you can slowly tweak some spells to make more useful alternatives to current meta and maybe give 1-2 ESF/metamagic bonus feat to sorc and possibly Wiz.

If you fix div dios and div scaling brokeness sorcadin no longer an “issue.”

[Dreams]

please remove spell disruption so I can be god

[Kalthariam]

Yeah, totally... Sorcerers and Wizards totally have so much more interesting mechanics besides the Epic Spell Cookies..

Which is why Lore Masters are Twice as Popular as Wizards and >Nine< times more popular than Sorcerers right..?

That's why sorcerers are less popular than assassins which are hard limited by actual applications right?

Simply lowering the Caster Level of Disjunction scrolls doesn't just immediately make Loremaster "Fine"

That class is ridiculously over bloated with benefits.

So, respectfully, I disagree with the idea that Loremaster is not disruptive to the server environment. I think it's an over bloated mess. I think it's one of the most egregiously blatant example of power creep on the server.

[Kythana]

Both sorcerer and wizard do have strong mechanics that set them apart from LMs. I've played with both recently, in fact, and they did a lot.

They both have access to fully powered ESF: abjuration mords, to begin with.

Sorc is still really powerful in the right hands. As is wizard, with enchantment specialization having access to one of the best buffs in the game. Abjuration specialization has its uses, with really strong aoe breaches.

Wild Mage is still good, infi mass haste caster in addition to a few other useful things. (33 CL versus dispel buffs when the bug is finally fixed.)

LM is a scapegoat, and provides more QoL than anything.

Popularity != Power.

[Subtext]

Equating the respective secrets with epic spell foci is really unfitting. Spell Foci also have various Spell interactions which are significantly more relevant than the stuff the greater secrets provide. A scrying secret doesn't empower true seeing. The conjuration secret isn't going to make summons stronger.
It's also disregarded that LM has a 16 INT stat requirement (as well as a feat requirement) which is absolutely an investment to consider for many many builds rather than something you just have anyway.
As far as a dip goes, Rogue doesn't have prerequisites and provides almost the same skills - though tumble instead of spellcraft which one may consider the superior choice. It also adds Evasion which is insanely useful. And a bit of damage.
Specialist offers all skills and provides an epic skill focus at the cost of a regular one.
As a 3 level dip, LM offers two lesser secrets, decent skills and some scroll/wand improvements for a feat and stat investment. At a 5 level investment it actually has tangible scroll/wand improvements and provides the equivalent of ESF lore plus tangible QoL through greater secrets. However, a 5 level investment also means not getting an epic bonus feat from the main class.
Certain scroll/wand interactions are fantastic but using scrolls in combat is again a double edged sword due to action economy.

Most of the time LM isn't an upgrade in terms of mechanical power - more a sideways thing.

It's definitely not replacing casters.

And to return to the actual topic...

Wizard's alleged strength is versatility but due to how many spells just are objectively worse than others on their level, a lot of that versatility is illusionary - and due to fairly limited slots they don't quite have the opportunity to do what they are supposed to do.

Sorcs...I don't even know where to start. I feel that given the existence of warlock and invoker, I feel like they don't have a role.

How to fix them (both Sorc and Wiz)...

As a quick fix, putting at least their health and skill pool on par with others is an overdue start. Meaning d6 hit dice and 4 base skill points.

Additionally about 50% more slots per circle would likely encourage casting more rather than mulling about whether you really want to sacrifice that spell.
An extra spell per level for sorcs shouldn't break balance either.

On a long term basis one needs to look at spell balance. For example disintegrate doesn't need to be vastly worse than IGMS. It would also need a hard look at DCs and CC spells and save or sucks. But that would be a ton of work and definitely take time.

[-XXX-]

As a quick fix, putting at least their health and skill pool on par with others is an overdue start. Meaning d6 hit dice and 4 base skill points.

Sidenote: Sorcerers already do have 4 + int modifier ((4 + int modifier) * 4 at 1st level) skill points: https://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Sorcerer