Arelith

That's because you're doing it wrong. You toss the offhand kama in the trash, because it's not worth 3 feats, 4 AC, and 2 AB; you also don't use an m.dam.

Zav's numbers are more or less correct for that build, but you can get the wis ac a little higher by plundering con (iirc you come out in the low 400s HP, which is a touch thin, but also not the end of the world). My quick hash of the math last night on a 23 ss/4 fighter/3 monk got:

44 AB
68-69 AC prior to expertise.
37ish damage a hit (however, you're probably also picking up about a 7d4 proc of either neg or acid. so it looks like 52 or so damage a hit).
DC on the imbues will be 37, target won't get spellcraft on the save.

Imbues run are most likely fire/neg in pve, fire/acid in pvp.

For tricky situations, you drop a blackstaff, and each hit forces a dc 34-35 will save with no spellcraft factored in to avoid an elemental damage amp. After a little a round of getting chewed on by this, the target is taking, depending on rolls, likely something between 30 and 80% increased elemental damage.

You sac UMD for it, and that's a legitimate concern, but not the end of the world.

Solutions that come to mind here are:
Restrict imbue procs to 1/flurry, rewarding higher dc over fishing for a ton of rolls.
Restrict the shield AC in circumstances where a monk weapon of any sort is equipped.

Yeah, the double-kama one was more of a 'how far can this get pushed' but having tried playing a dual-wielding spellsword already, I wouldn't recommend it at all.

I don't much like the flurry restriction ideas (maybe only when using a kama/qstaff?) and the monk weapon ac restriction doesn't so much fix that you can take monk on any spellsword for +6 (minimum) AC and then use a rapier, but I guess that applies to any unarmored character,

Yeah, and apparently we already have some epic level spellswords that are rapier monk spellswords, and Kirito doesn't want to cut their legs off, which I can sympathize with.

Flurry restriction 100% needs to happen though.

So what's the best lvl progression for 23/4/3? Do you take monk lvls pre-epic? 12 SS lvls pre-epic feels like it's gonna be too hard to level up doesnt it?

You definitely don't take monk pre-epic. You take the 4 fighter levels pre epic to secure AB, since that's more important than damage anyhow. You probably need to buy exotic prof somewhere in there, but iirc, the 16 wiz/4 fighter pre epic spread covers you pretty well for feats.

Monk comes in at the end. You level basically like a regular dex spellsword until epics.

I think limiting procs w/ flurries isn't a bad idea, but maybe limit it to two procs a flurry? This way, "traditional" spellswords aren't affected. I'll readily admit my bias, though--I have an epic spellsword myself.

Also, yes--I can think of a 23/4/3 variant that grabs epic prowess and +1 spellsword AB from 23. It actually works out perfectly. Can't make it until I am home.

Zavandar wrote:Also, yes--I can think of a 23/4/3 variant that grabs epic prowess and +1 spellsword AB from 23. It actually works out perfectly. Can't make it until I am home.

There's no bonus ab for the path anymore. the bonus was added directly to the bab and thus, in epics it doesnt exist.

Astral wrote:

Zavandar wrote:Also, yes--I can think of a 23/4/3 variant that grabs epic prowess and +1 spellsword AB from 23. It actually works out perfectly. Can't make it until I am home.

There's no bonus ab for the path anymore. the bonus was added directly to the bab and thus, in epics it doesnt exist.

As of last check, the 23/27 bonus AB is still functioning.

Just those two though, yea?

Yeah, rest have been folded into class BAB. I'll double check later, because it is kind of a big deal, but that's my current understanding of things.

So, just throwing a question out here because I don't feel creating an entirely new thread for it would make sense. It's also off topic from the current round of discussion, but it is still relating to Spellswords.

Is carrying a shield (Addy Tower Shield) going to be better than leaving the off-hand empty? It's been a long time since I've used a Tower Shield, and I'm not sure if the AC gained from having your off-hand empty balances out against it especially considering you gain a boost to AB from it.

The addy tower is gonna be 1-2 more AC for most spellswords. It's situationally useful to have one, but it can kinda be a pain to toggle it on the fly. I'd personally carry one though.

Yes, I would carry a tower shield and a bronze full plate chest for those instances where you really just need ac (namely group pve). It's 4 more altogether than 6/1 greensteel and 4 ss off-hand ac.

DC on the imbues will be 37, target won't get spellcraft on the save.

Can you please teel me when did you test this, I tested it around a month a go and I am pretty sure the save included spellcraft.

Yeah, rest have been folded into class BAB

Meaning it is no longer a magical bonus, but a standard 3/4 BaB ab?

dallion43 wrote: Meaning it is no longer a magical bonus, but a standard 3/4 BaB ab?

Yes. Except that you still get the bonus in epics, for now.

So Bob takes 16 wizard pre epic, he gets 12 bab from them, and then he goes 4 fighter and gets to 16 bab at lvl 20. Then Bob takes 7 more wizard lvls and gets +2 ab (that does count to the cap, unlike the bab) that shouldnt exist.


Another question. What's a secondary greater spell focus (the first being abjuration) you'd take on a spellsword? I got 2 free feats at lvl 1 JUST for that.

Trans, trans, trans.

You want to max str/dex, con and int. And on top of this, blackstaff is pretty much -for- spellswords, and it's a transmute spell.

Zavandar wrote:Trans, trans, trans.

You want to max str/dex, con and int. And on top of this, blackstaff is pretty much -for- spellswords, and it's a transmute spell.

Okay, interesting. I might not have enough feats for epic spell focus though. Also, what does blackstaff do exactly? I think the wiki is up to date on that one. Does it have any scaling with transmute focus?

It applies a stacking vulnerability to magical and elemental damage. 5% for magical, 10% for the other elements, capping at 50%/100% respectively. Duration is 6 rounds, but is refreshed each time it procs.

dallion43 wrote:

DC on the imbues will be 37, target won't get spellcraft on the save.

Can you please teel me when did you test this, I tested it around a month a go and I am pretty sure the save included spellcraft.

Last night.

It's a will save that ignores spell craft and the DC is increased via transmute focuses.

Alrighty. After mulling it over for a bit and talking to some people, I believe that this is the best monk variant there is:



Works with most other races, as they can just drop arcane defense: abjuration.

I think the math can speak for itself. This build seems a little bit on the super strong side..

And the more "traditional" variant here:

This build works great as a human, and also as a dwarf/duergar. Dwarves effectively have exotic through free dwarven waraxe feats. Regular elves not so much because their dex isn't that useful, but sun elves can work.

I'm not a huge fan of losing epic spec but you're almost certainly correct.The only other option is to lose a wizard level (and two feats), or two wizard levels and 1 feat.

I think that if this change achieved anything, it discourages spellswords from getting weapon specs.