Accountability

[Hellfire]

people who sit there and refuse to post are not exempt from pvp because they are intentionally refusing to interact.

You can't automatically assume that. If a person has, for example, stepped away from their keyboard to answer the doorbell, there is exactly ZERO possibility of meeting the interactive RP requirement before PvP.

A refusal to converse with your character can be, but that would be shown by emotes, engaging in other activities, or trying to leave.

[AskRyze]

I'm going to share something I posted a while ago. I'm surprised it wasn't deleted.

The thing is, trust must be earned. You cannot say 'Trust us, or else' or you will lose what little trust you had. You cannot say 'Please, trust us, we're serious' and have no actual change effected, or people will roll their eyes and label you with duplicity. You need to express that wrong has been done and then actively make changes toward responsibility, accountability, and excellence before people will choose, of their own free will, to trust.

This goes toward players as well as DMs - hell, this goes for everyone, anywhere. If you want someone to trust you, you must show them that you can be trusted in a way that doesn't require them to trust you in the first place. You need to be held accountable in the most transparent manner possible. That transparency means that, even if someone doesn't trust you, you can act in a way where they don't have to trust you, but still shows that you are able to be trusted.

The only way to fix a lack of trust is to act in a way that doesn't require you to be trusted to be doing your job correctly. It is to be accountable for your actions through absolute transparency. It is to be responsible for your misdeeds and for what has happened in the past and truly willing to make change and actually put that change into effect. And, ultimately, it requires a commitment to excellence on behalf of the persons that are earning trust back, because it is through a lack of excellence that trust was lost in the first place.

What have the DMs done to show that we should trust them? Where have they given us room to, objectively, show that they are trustworthy? You do not reach your hand into the cage trusting a wild animal to not bite it off, then act like it is completely tame when you reach back and your hand is still there. Likely, it just hasn't noticed you yet. Rattle the cage some, draw their attention to you and you'll see how quickly they will bite off your hand. Especially now, now that they're agitated.

There is one way to clearly, concisely show that you are trustworthy. You need to be transparent. You need to show people that, without a doubt, you CAN be trusted. And you need to do this in a way where they don't have to trust you. In fact, you need to expect the others to DISTRUST you. And that's the trick - if you do it objectively, where you are trustworthy without reproach, and with complete and total transparency? They won't be able to point to anything to show that you aren't trustworthy.

Arelith could be something great. However, as it stands, it's going the way of Amia. While I might not be on the server much anymore, don't you doubt for a moment I won't fight for it however I can against the people who are poisoning the well.

And those people aren't the players.

[Zavandar]

people who sit there and refuse to post are not exempt from pvp because they are intentionally refusing to interact.

You can't automatically assume that. If a person has, for example, stepped away from their keyboard to answer the doorbell, there is exactly ZERO possibility of meeting the interactive RP requirement before PvP.

A refusal to converse with your character can be, but that would be shown by emotes, engaging in other activities, or trying to leave.

it's not something i would do, but i've seen several times someone just pretending to be afk but running immediately when they're attacked.

a lot of people in this thread (myself included) have resorted to recording PvP because of the blatant misinformation spread by the other party... which a lot of people in this thread are guilty of.

[Flip Flappers]

So fun fact. I'm just going to go through what I've been doing the last 72 hours.

I've been talking to over 40 players since the Banites refused to talk to me directly to resolve any issues. Instead they decided to dig their heels and one of their players straight up was in my face about Frostblade misconduct, but refused (adamantly) to actually offer their information or what not. They could have done it privately, and I would have kept it secret.

Now, I have noticed increasing toxicity in my chat. Quietly observing, I have watched and I have watched.
There are two important things to note here:

1. I have a report that is quite long and includes various strange judgement calls (and sometimes lack thereof) regarding as many possible players as I have, including Frostblades, Banites and yes, Harpers. There are guilty parties on all three sides.

2. I know most of the Harpers from 8-6 months ago. I watched what they were doing, and compared it to the Harper Code as is posted on just about every site about the Harpers. Hell, I possibly know a few active ones now just walking around.
- Harpers are never supposed to instigate war. (They allegedly had according to an ex-Harper.)
- Harpers are never supposed to hold positions of power. (They have held positions of power, again, I have proof.)
- Harpers are never supposed to support their sworn enemies, Bane. (I have seen their actions in game knowing, and them knowing, and thus am quite now worried).

However, we find that strange plots pop up. The Heartstone plot for the grove was... great until you get elemental lords asking Varith to assist, who demands respect but doesn't act menacing in any way, he just kinda shows up, calls you "retarded" (not a great word by the by, that Be Nice rule doesn't seem to apply here) and PvP before you can even react. There are several instances of it.
A disarm build also isn't great when you use it to force RP onto others and then *admit* you forced that RP onto them for no other reason than "They disrespected us". And if they didn't like it? Too bad for them. Now that's not nice.

I have screenshots of as many players as I could find who agreed to speak to me on matters, and whom were fine with providing me their findings, their opinions of the team, and their general expectancy of any outcome regarding transparency. Logs, DM conversations, concerns, screenshots, and even some videos. It's not great for either side. Frostblades are probably too aggressive and burned out but hell, they have a lot of IC reasons to be fighting more so than OOC.

The Server Wide meeting was a mess. Everyone I've spoken too was furious that it was arranged on a day that it ought not to have been, where the only person who could answer most of the harder, necessary questions had to dip out halfway through with most of the DM staff, according to screenshots, then deferring to a missing Admin.

Now, if the Players who think that this report will threaten would like to speak to me and present their evidence, I am more than happy to. I had asked said players to provide their evidence for me so I can properly deal with my faction like a responsible person.

I was asked to step out of my echo chamber. When I did, all I found was a second echo-chamber, and a lot of people too scared to speak up against the DM team because they felt genuinely abandoned or that nothing was being done.
Attacking low-level areas or places not disposed for combat is just stupid. Two forces clashing in Minmir? That's fine. That place has always been contested. Attacking the Arcane Tower were people literally have to hide a floor above just to do proper Tower roleplay and not get messed up because someone can't control their temper and walk away?
That's kinda the Be Nice Rule.

If a DM would like to contact me about my findings? You know how to reach out to me. I have tried several times in the past to ask questions, and to even arrange a time to ask questions, and get some facts to prove to Frostblades you guys were in the clear, but more and more shady stuff kept popping up and remained tight lipped.

Otherwise? I'm just going to do what I promised I would. A simple display of everything I have found. And then offer a very basic overview of everything I have found.

I've been told I'm not even a Frostblade anymore by some players but even so I still assured them that I would investigate, even as I investigated their behavior. And yes. That will be included. It's not all sunshine and rainbows on our side, and I was acknowledging that too.

I do know things I apparently shouldn't. Fact is? It's not hard to find. Ask the people who are hurt for upholding the standards of the Harper faction and you will find that they are happy to reveal a lot of painful things about their usually brief time. A LOT of people know this information because the DM team has not allowed the players to police the Harpers according to the code. It's happened twice that I've seen.

Both times have left the players upset and angry. Their opinions were not respected and instead OOC was blamed (despite OOC having nothing to do with the Harper Code being violated. Seriously. It's basically been mutilated and left on the side of the road at this point in Arelith's history.)

And yes? I am willing to discuss everything I've found. With anyone. Over Reddit, over discord.
I don't intend to play Arelith anymore after seeing just how far it goes, and realising who is who and how they're connected.

In the end? I know I tried to do right, and I'm fine with that. I asked people a lot of questions, and a great many that I didn't even know about or hadn't even met yet both OOC or IC spoke to me. The server is still great. But some things were extremely distasteful.

DM's, you can either choose to ban or reach out to me. Whichever you choose will honestly make the bigger point.

Damn dude, you're like the next Edward Snowden.

[Vincent]

i suggest anyone who reads this goes outside gets some fresh air and enjoys their day

[Faint]

And yes? I am willing to discuss everything I've found. With anyone. Over Reddit, over discord.
I don't intend to play Arelith anymore after seeing just how far it goes, and realising who is who and how they're connected.

In the end? I know I tried to do right, and I'm fine with that. I asked people a lot of questions, and a great many that I didn't even know about or hadn't even met yet both OOC or IC spoke to me. The server is still great. But some things were extremely distasteful.

DM's, you can either choose to ban or reach out to me. Whichever you choose will honestly make the bigger point.

When an outstanding player, and practical boy-scout like Mach is leaving the server, you know you have a problem. Please, don't disregard this. I've roleplayed with Mach more than once, and he's a great person. Players on this thread (and elsewhere) aren't just dramatizing problems that don't exist.

Certain issues on Arelith have been swept under the rug for years. Please, for once, address and resolve them. Don't just brush them away or dismiss them as biased complaints from people who are personally aggrieved. It is much, much deeper than that.

I've been incredibly critical of the staff in the past, and even here. And that isn't because of some abject hatred of them. The truth is, when the rules are -this- vague, it is not their fault that they offer conflicting interpretations. It's understandable. Everyone is subject to that. What I hold the staff at fault for, is only their praise of the system at current, and the historical banning of people who dared to critique it. It was the refusal to acknowledge the system as flawed. The habit of turning a blind eye when people raised complaints of it.

If you:

1. Make the rules more clear, specific, and concise.
2. Ensure the staff as a whole to give consistent, non-contradicting interpretations of them.
3. Don't punish people for asking for clarification of the rules, and don't punish them for giving honest critical feedback of the system.

Then I have no issue with any of you. At the end of the day, you work for free. It's a volunteer job, and I understand how much stress and work goes into it. But the obscurity of Arelith's ruleset is half of the reason you have the workload you do. It is the core of an immense quantity of issues. It's why we even -need- a thread on accountability.

[HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL]

i suggest anyone who reads this goes outside gets some fresh air and enjoys their day

[l33tfragiletings]

i suggest anyone who reads this goes outside gets some fresh air and enjoys their day

[DM Chiliad]

i suggest anyone who reads this goes outside gets some fresh air and enjoys their day

[Nitro]

A lot of words

So, that's nice and all. But why would I trust anything of your 'investigations'. This is the first I've heard of them as someone who's been involved in events and I've never been approached by you or anyone else about my view of events that went down at any given town. Nor do you have any oversight on logs or actual factual information, like our DM's have, outside of what biased players chose to give you.

[Zavandar]

also mach, it's easy to try and defend your argument when you're trying to define the terms of engagement beforehand

something penwize did when i talked to the 1 on 1, by the way (it's very manipulative)

but i will post the harper code here for everyone to easily reference:


-never says anything about starting wars

-never says anything about holding positions of power (in fact that's kind of their shtick)

-regarding bane, it states harpers are mindful of the consequences of what they do

now you might be johnny badass and not afraid of varith even though he bodied you in 2 rounds, but some people actually roleplay having fear for their life. and varith is a good roleplayer, and many people have RP'd with him when they're not being as shallow as "me squish bean, bean bad". if you don't want to do that, there are other servers you can play on.

stop presenting your opinions as fact.

[HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL]

https://wiki.efupw.com/index.php?title=Server_Rules

also here's some clear and concise rules that are widely open to interpretation

as compared to using common sense and decency

[Faint]

https://wiki.efupw.com/index.php?title=Server_Rules

also here's some clear and concise rules that are widely open to interpretation

as compared to using common sense and decency

If you think 'common sense' is common, I've got some bad news for you.

What you may consider common sense may be utterly preposterous to someone else, and vice versa. Common sense is not, and has never been common because people have different opinions of what is reasonable, and logical. Reasons why it is a terrible basis for a ruleset.

People in all walks of life are often very opinionated, and hold -very- different viewpoints on what they consider to be sensible or reasonable.

[Irongron]

Just wanted to say how encouraging it is to see more than 90 people on the forums right now.

Whatever you guys are doing here it sure is working!

I would recommend you read the topic, it's not trending for any good reason.

Yes, it was meant in humor. Obviously I've followed this. I really have very little to say that hasn't been said already. I'm definitely happy to debate policy (when I have time) but not when some parties are obviously intransigent.

I can only reiterate what Chilliad pointed out - that players truly are very welcome to post their concerns, and should not feel targetted or discriminated against for doing so. We will of course, draw a line if what is being said is simply untrue. When it isn't? Criticism has shaped Arelith since the early days. Its not the only thing of course, but the role it has played is very real. I find it truly absurd that anyone is suggesting players get banned/mistreated for speaking out - if that was true these forums would be a wasteland. Its is equally false to claim we delete critical posts (only ever abusive ones).

As for DM policy and the issue of transparancy, we had that conversation very recently, and it was stated, quite clearly, we will not take a different approach. Is our policy right? That is entirely subjective. Arelith is what it is, and there are other (often fantastic) servers that take a different approach. NWN needs that kind of choice, and I would love to see a healthier environment where players really do feel able to vote with their feet.

Just wanted to say how encouraging it is to see more than 90 people on the forums right now.

Whatever you guys are doing here it sure is working!

Can I ask what the max has been? I really love looking at Arelith stats.

I think it says on the main page? Forums peaked at 500 odd last year some time, server itself did 3 weeks ago at the big player/staff meeting.



The only thing I'd like to add here, is just to say that we should try to avoid belittling those who have a different viewpoint, whatever 'side' they're on. For good or ill we are one community, and while I appreciate those that rush to the server's defence in such threads we should all try to differentiate between those who are seizing an opportunity to grind their own particular axe, and those who have genuine and legitimate concerns - even if we disagree with them.

Despite some prophecies of doom posted here, I am certain Arelith will continue to grow and be a popular choice for many of those playing NWN. I can't say I personally have much patience for such 'warnings' to the server, but equally I would not wish anyone to keep playing Arelith that wasn't enjoying it.

Arelith does rate privacy however, and this thread has got FAR too critical of certain players and their particular cases. Even if someone has indeed done wrong or been banned, seeing themselves discussed in this fashion within a public sphere can do real harm. For that reason, and that reason alone, I am locking this thread.

[Sockss]

And yes? I am willing to discuss everything I've found. With anyone. Over Reddit, over discord.
I don't intend to play Arelith anymore after seeing just how far it goes, and realising who is who and how they're connected.

In the end? I know I tried to do right, and I'm fine with that. I asked people a lot of questions, and a great many that I didn't even know about or hadn't even met yet both OOC or IC spoke to me. The server is still great. But some things were extremely distasteful.

DM's, you can either choose to ban or reach out to me. Whichever you choose will honestly make the bigger point.

When an outstanding player, and practical boy-scout like Mach is leaving the server, you know you have a problem. Please, don't disregard this. I've roleplayed with Mach more than once, and he's a great person. Players on this thread (and elsewhere) aren't just dramatizing problems that don't exist.

Every time I've RP'd with Mach, it hasn't been the case.
Regrettably.
Probably from the elf gf hounding and the self-insert liberal morally subjective views on being 'good'.

[Quinn]

Does locking the post actually solve the issue here? Probably not, but hey. If it ain't broken, don't fix it. I'ma right

[The_Queen~s_Rebuke]

Seriously? Don't do this. Show a modicum of respect for someone when they've said 'this is enough'. Especially when it's been determined to be a problem by the people who were put in place to do just that.