Arelith

I didn't think you could pickpocket PC's stealthed. I know you can't do NPC shops stealthed Perhaps they were invisible. And perhaps that shouldn't be a thing either.

Though, honestly, this is the best version of the pickpocket system we have had and the costs are almost negligible.

Archnon wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:21 am Though, honestly, this is the best version of the pickpocket system we have had and the costs are almost negligible.

That's exactly what someone afraid of getting pickpocket nerfed -would- say!

Joking aside I do think there needs to be a little something to encourage more RP when it comes to pickpocketing someone.
I'd want to say maybe it spews out a couple of random lines about stumbling next to the target or brushing along side them but I can already hear the distant wailings of "MUH METAGAMING!"

This is absolutely something players should be attempting to involve others in the RP. There’s a lot of RP to be had around the mechanic, even if the mechanic itself isn’t promoting RP.

For example:
- The thief could stalk or case the target for a while to try and get an idea of how watchful they are.
- They might bump into them, use an excuse to get close, and pickpocket when they’re not in stealth.
- A victim might be able to seek out local guards and give a description.
- The victim could start their own investigation based on whatever they’ve seen.
- There is a lot of counter-play available, such as True Seeing to see everyone around you, building spot (easier than building hide), being aware of your surroundings, using the -observe command on suspicious individuals.

Players can always do a little better in their RP, so just think of how you can use this to add to the story.

I feel like RP should be mandatory in some form before pickpocketing another player, given that it authorises instant hostilities when seen/found to do have just done it, atleast, by the victim.

Edit for clarity:
"PvP after pickpocketing

Attacking a thief caught in the act is OK. This does not break any of the Arelith rules. The act of stealing and successful detection of it is considered interactive roleplay before PvP battle in this case.

Attacking them later (without RP at the time) is not. "
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Sleight_of_Hand

I think the current pickpocketing mechanics are much better than the previous iteration, but I have two questions about it:

This isn't actually intended as gold being lost from the bank account, but rather a representation of having lost expensive scarves, lockets, etc, all those things you're character might be carrying that aren't actual valued, and often irreplaceable inventory items, which was previously the case with this ability.

How do I roleplay a pickpocket attempt if my character is completely naked? I don't want to break the PG-13 rule.

If I'm next to a player store in the wilderness and I want to buy something from it but I don't have enough gold to complete the transaction, can I use my friend as a bank by pickpocketing them?

The main thing lacking is the ability to sneak a note or smallish object into someone's inventory.

Red_Wharf wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:22 am

This isn't actually intended as gold being lost from the bank account, but rather a representation of having lost expensive scarves, lockets, etc, all those things you're character might be carrying that aren't actual valued, and often irreplaceable inventory items, which was previously the case with this ability.

How do I roleplay a pickpocket attempt if my character is completely naked? I don't want to break the PG-13 rule.

You should probably take this into consideration yourself. The pickpocket gold that is stolen represents the value of small bits and pieces that adventurers may carry on them, such as valuables not properly accounted for in the game.

Does your character have gold in the bank? If yes, then they have the valuables represented mechanically in game. You can truly RP a character who owns nothing by owning nothing.

The mechanic as it is currently all but encourages pickpockets to not engage and interact with anyone, because if they do they run a much higher risk of getting caught. The vast majority of pickpocketing I've seen happen has been entirely silent as a pickpocket just taps people to collect some free passive income while going through town, they don't even need to worry about breaking theft rules anymore since the cooldown is built into the mechanics now.

It’s difficult to recommend doing too much to give yourself away as a pickpocket since the punishment for being caught almost never fits the crime— usually death or exile for something that should be a nuisance in a major city. Casing and stalking is wonderful as an assassin but I wouldn’t expect it from every pickpocket.

It’s fun do it for the thrill of working a crowd and pushing your luck and it’s very very low stakes so I wouldn’t wring my hands about someone getting away with it for a bit. There are enough spotters that they’ll get caught eventually and of course, blade orbs…

I think the best RP from the skill would come from being able to slip a note, a key, a little gift etc into someone’s inventory. Or a grenade.

I've been pickpocketed a few times since the change, I'm not sure why people get so upset over it. It's just some coin.

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:04 pm I've been pickpocketed a few times since the change, I'm not sure why people get so upset over it. It's just some coin.

I'm of the opinion and personally feel it's not the gold, it's the lack of rp and how it is so at odds with the pvp rules, where for some reason it counts despite often the lack of prerequisite interactivity.

It is a hostile action, why then does it not require a form of rp as every other mechanic involving two parties does. Even boarding ships is leaning towards pre-rp with the flags/shouts now.

If the issue is a fear of metagamers, maybe they should be reported and their rpr/presence on the server be evaluated.

What DM Monkey suggests could improve the experience shouldn't be a suggestion, it should be a must.

Farlius wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 7:46 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:04 pm I've been pickpocketed a few times since the change, I'm not sure why people get so upset over it. It's just some coin.

I'm of the opinion and personally feel it's not the gold, it's the lack of rp and how it is so at odds with the pvp rules, where for some reason it counts despite often the lack of prerequisite interactivity.

It is a hostile action, why then does it not require a form of rp as every other mechanic involving two parties does. Even boarding ships is leaning towards pre-rp with the flags/shouts now.

To put it in perspective, it's for the same reason in the other thread you don't want your disguises broken regularly. It relies on the other player not using the rope you give them to strangle you.

If you build for sleight of hand, you're likely not built for PvP so you don't want that to be the recourse but the "RP" you'll get from making it interactive is to get struck down and possibly exiled. Whereas leaving it to the spot score means when you fail, it's cos people were trying to get you.

It's hard to convince people to willingly take an L regularly and for little, usually no, appreciation from other players.

NB: this isn't to defend griefy circle pickpocketing, but it's to defend why people won't be y'know... CHOOSING to fail

Except pickpocket is a skill you tap someone with and disguise is a time investment that so far has proven to aid RP when used as intended.

Also, not built for pvp how?
That makes no sense. Literally any pvp build can drop another skill to take it cc or full if they have a class that does get it.

At no point did I say you have to rp:
*reaches into your pocket*

What I did say is follow DM Monkey's examples.
For clarity, finding reasons to get close and casing someone should be a bigger part than *hits pickpocket in stealth and never makes any rp*

It's pride and nothing else. Players can't stand that someone gets something over on them, even if it's minor like snatching 500 gp. I mean seriously, just go with the flow and report it to whatever PC authority is around like the minor crime it is or take defenses against it happening again (boost spot if you can, get a bunch of orbs, raise general awareness and post notices) and work together to flush out a pickpocket instead of thinking it's a 1 on 1 hostile action that must be immediately addressed.

Pickpocketing is by nature something a criminal does to a +crowd+. The system is set up so you get diminishing returns hitting the same player so griefing is not really an issue. Someone who takes sleight of hand right now is doing it almost entirely for the thrill of pushing their luck and causing a bit of chaos (it's not that lucrative at all, you can make a lot more money in that time grinding or by putting those same points into appraise). They'll always eventually get caught if they keep doing it especially if the crowd they're working puts in a little community effort to stop them. But so many players are like "how dare this pickpocket single me out and they must be spanked into oblivion". It's not PVP, it's not quarter theft where they can steal something worth a million coins, it's a very minor crime. Roll with it and keep it in perspective, you're really not losing anything of any value if you get nicked once in a while.

Farlius wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:04 pm Except pickpocket is a skill you tap someone with and disguise is a time investment that so far has proven to aid RP when used as intended.

Also, not built for pvp how?
That makes no sense. Literally any pvp build can drop another skill to take it cc or full if they have a class that does get it.

At no point did I say you have to rp:
*reaches into your pocket*

What I did say is follow DM Monkey's examples.
For clarity, finding reasons to get close and casing someone should be a bigger part than *hits pickpocket in stealth and never makes any rp*

?

Dude, that's completely avoiding the point - the point of sinking points in Sleight of Hand is to do dextrous nimble things for RP gains, putting points in bluff is to deceive people. Both want to be able to do their thing, as it stands rumbling someone's disguise isn't grounds to immediately PvP them. If you catch someone PPing, you can so they minimise risk.

If you want it RPed then don't make the consequences immediately fatal and incentives them to RP. Be the change you want to see on the server.

Okay, here we go then.

Ninjimmy wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:12 pm ?

Dude, that's completely avoiding the point - the point of sinking points in Sleight of Hand is to do dextrous nimble things for RP gains, putting points in bluff is to deceive people. Both want to be able to do their thing, as it stands rumbling someone's disguise isn't grounds to immediately PvP them. If you catch someone PPing, you can so they minimise risk.

If you want it RPed then don't make the consequences immediately fatal and incentives them to RP. Be the change you want to see on the server.

Firstly, I answered what you said. Care to elaborate on where I didn't?

Secondly, Bluff, Perform, Disguise, does not count as a hostile action and go figure, it encourages RP outside of a mechanical benefit.
Let's take a moment to analyse since you've skipped past that:
Disguise has to conform to a set of rules that are not at odds with the rest of the server.
To break disguise, you need spot and assumedly proximity to break it.
Calling someone out on being disguised requires further knowledge of the person behind the disguise, which is again more RP.
None of this warrants hostile action unless the person behind the disguise is a known scoundrel.

Pickpocket, counts for a hostile action, and does not encourage RP as it gives mechanical benefit of Gold. Why would you ever want to produce RP if that only slows your gold making? Yes this is a dim view but coincidently is the majority of experiences I have personally heard of. This is not to say all experiences, just those I have heard of during the years of my playing here.

Now analysing that:
Pickpocket has a unique set of rules that are at odds with the PvP rules. Even assassins can't bypass the PvP rules key part of initial RP.
Spotting someone that is pickpocketing requires proximity and spot.
You don't need to call someone out for the action as it is innately hostile, you can just kill them to get some gold they stole back.

The system itself for Disguise? Inherently encourages interaction.
The system for pickpocket? Encourages no Rp and killing the thief.

Edit: Also I want to add since you decided to make this an issue, you brought disguise up. Not me.

Farlius wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:22 pm Okay, here we go then.

Ninjimmy wrote: Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:12 pm ?

Dude, that's completely avoiding the point - the point of sinking points in Sleight of Hand is to do dextrous nimble things for RP gains, putting points in bluff is to deceive people. Both want to be able to do their thing, as it stands rumbling someone's disguise isn't grounds to immediately PvP them. If you catch someone PPing, you can so they minimise risk.

If you want it RPed then don't make the consequences immediately fatal and incentives them to RP. Be the change you want to see on the server.

Firstly, I answered what you said. Care to elaborate on where I didn't?

Secondly, Bluff, Perform, Disguise, does not count as a hostile action and go figure, it encourages RP outside of a mechanical benefit.
Let's take a moment to analyse since you've skipped past that:
Disguise has to conform to a set of rules that are not at odds with the rest of the server.
To break disguise, you need spot and assumedly proximity to break it.
Calling someone out on being disguised requires further knowledge of the person behind the disguise, which is again more RP.
None of this warrants hostile action unless the person behind the disguise is a known scoundrel.

Pickpocket, counts for a hostile action, and does not encourage RP as it gives mechanical benefit of Gold. Why would you ever want to produce RP if that only slows your gold making? Yes this is a dim view but coincidently is the majority of experiences I have personally heard of. This is not to say all experiences, just those I have heard of during the years of my playing here.

Now analysing that:
Pickpocket has a unique set of rules that are at odds with the PvP rules. Even assassins can't bypass the PvP rules key part of initial RP.
Spotting someone that is pickpocketing requires proximity and spot.
You don't need to call someone out for the action as it is innately hostile, you can just kill them to get some gold they stole back.

The system itself for Disguise? Inherently encourages interaction.
The system for pickpocket? Encourages no Rp and killing the thief.

... Yes. I'm saying that the solution is NOT killing the thief so they will RP the PP.

That's the part you don't seem to be interacting with.

Still.

And you seem to be neglecting the part that killing them gets your gold back. Don't ignore what I said just because it benefits what you want to see.

I'm not, you can also get it back by RPing. That's what you're saying you want, why are you penalising the ones who try?

Honestly, I feel some people kill too quickly when pickpocketed without real second thought. It does not really feel like Good alignment behaviour, not even Tormtar - and those folk are one of the most violent of Lawful Good deities.

I remember walking around I think in Cordor when I was new and people killed the pickpocket on the spot. That kind of behaviour is for Luskan/Mintarn-like towns, not a civillized city that has laws and leans strongly into Helm.

I'm not sure what I'm saying here beyond maybe that alignment/deity/divine powers ought get looked at if someone kills someone so eagerly.


To note: I don't play a thief, and have been pickpocketed before. I even ran into the pickpocket later, but didn't really do anything beyond some chastising as my PC's faith is fine with non-violent thievery.

It's one thing to pickpocket in town, but some people push it even further - pickpockting next to a portal source. Good luck getting any details on such folk who immediately go not just the opposite street, but the opposite of whole server.

I'm honestly a bit shocked people are complaining about this feature. There are SOOOOO many counters to it, it is a bit ridiculous. The only reason to even attempt it is if you want to pursue a purely RP direction or if you have a death wish, and it ends up being both. Let's review:

Benefits
- Pickpocket NPCS, feasibly once per day. Reasonably high DC that scales up. What do you usually get, a bronze weapon or a level 1 scroll worth nothing because most NPCs don't have decent gear.
- Pickpocket monsters - Some XP, thats really it. You get the same coin if you kill them.
- PC's - this is the real kicker. If I go out on a limb and pickpocket the riskiest level 30 character i can make between ..... 0 - 3000 coin. You are not guaranteed the high end and it scales down from there. That is next to nothing, especially given ...

The Risks:
- Spot checks: But not just from the guy you are pickpocketing but more importantly anyone within sight of you! That means even if you have a mark that you know has low spot, Johnny do-gooder next to him might not and wamo, your busted.
-Observe: Oh thats right, you look shady, your new in town, lets give anyone who marks you with -observe an extra 20 spot...
- Blade orbs: "But no one invests in spot" you say, "Why bother when disguises are unbreakable and listening is better for stealth" you say. Well then you can carry bladeorbs, and lots of em. Stack em on up. Get 50 of them and they scale.... Woo boy, someone comes after you and Wamo, they are busted and dead.
-Timing: Okay, so you got lucky, you caught a low spot character with noone else around. You got you're paltry 1500 coin (btw that is the average on a level 30). Maybe you were even cool and did it in the open so they saw you. You actually RPed it. *bumps into player* Good for you! but wait... they get a message they got pickpocketed 30 seconds after you hit. Man, you were the only one close enough to do it. They know you did it. Better hope you were disguised, and be ready to burn those clothes because they are looking for you now and they know exactly who did it. And when they catch you ...
-Culture: Finally, given all the ways you can get caught, you will get caught eventually, and what happens. You become persona-non-grata. Kill on sight, chase out of town, etc.

All for a paltry sum of gold a day.

I agree there could be more RP around pickpocket but you need more balance around it. if you want to make changes to encourage RP around pickpocket, facilitate that (and none of these are big mechanical changes):

1.) Prevent pickpocket in stealth or while invisible. Make people do it out in the open.... but:
2.) Require RP before PVP even after a failed pickpocket attempt. Force people to act it out, not jump straight to their guns
3.) Eliminate blade orbs. Change them out so they don't do damage. What if instead, they were paint orbs. Sorting of like those tags they stick on clothes to keep you from stealing them. You try and break it off and it spills ink all over you. Then until the next reset people inspecting you can see: "This character is covered in bright red paint, a clear sign they tried to sneak a hand into someones purse". But that gives you the chance to react and run when it goes off. And frankly reduce their chance and make them a rarer drop. Blade orbs are like candy in certain NPC areas.
4.) Delay the notice by a significant amount. 5-10 minutes (or if you want to keep it short, do #6 on my list)
5.) Encourage pickpocketing in cities by giving a boost to pickpocket skill when there. For example, a simple +10 to somewhat counter observe Cities are full of hustle and bustle. We are told there are lots of NPCs around that we don't see mingling and acting and stuff. Pickpockets should have the advantage here. Instead, they are at an extreme disadvantage because this is where PC's hang out and anyone can spot your pickpocket.
6.) Create NPC pickpockets that trigger the same way as PCS. Again, see my point above about cities being seedy locals. Have it be like lightning in a storm. If you are in Cordor, there is a % chance that you will randomly get a message that you were just fleeced and you lost XXX coin. Parts of Cordor may even have a higher percentage than others depending on how seedy they are. Don't indicate if it was a pc or NPC. This gives shields to PC pickpockets and creates some intrigue. (also a great gold sink)
6.) Increase the amount you can steal. I mean geez, right now it is once a day. No one is getting rich off this. What if we cut the amount per level to 0.5 of what it is now but increased the number of people you could pickpocket per day to 5 or even 10. You spread out the negative and increase the risk. But it also lets you actually get some coin out of it

Some other ideas:
- Thieves guild, just like the assassins guild. Put it in Guld since that server needs something to bring people in. You get quests where you have to steal stuff from NPC's with increasing risk. Give people a reason to use it other than PVP
- Get the card games working all the way. I still haven't seen a set of loaded dice. Is that a craftable. How fun would it be to pickpocket and then challenge someone to a dice game to earn their coin back.... but with loaded dice.

i know the suggestion thread is closed.... but thanks for coming to my ted talk..... and I am saying this as a roll up a pickpocket character that I am sure is just gonna get stomped into the dirt on a regular basis because I plan to do it out in the open and proper.

Well..

Since this thread is already Necro-ed.

A DM (i dont remember who it was but it also doesnt matter) was asking about a pick-pocket build on discord a while back after the update at some point. Several players offered aid but I made a little joke there "A DM(!!!) wants a pick-pocket build?" and the DM, who understood the joke, answered "what? No. I dont go around stealing from random people. They need to earn my hatred through RP" or something along those lines. Anyway, it was a good read and it made me think maybe this Skill should be application-gated or rpr-gated.

having played a pickpocketer recently.... i think the biggest discouragement from actually using the skill, was i found that the timer before the other player noticed was too short. This definitely encourages the stealth PP style or no rp pickpocket.

Yeah, one minute SHOULD Be enough, but the reality is its not.
often times if i target a person in passing, it wasn't very long before a person came charging back to town fully warded and ready to fight. I literally had one minute to get out of dodge after a pickpocket.

I loved hitting people in bars - eg the nomad. But often times if i RP with the people having a drink....
>They're sitting down, having a drink.
> talk to the bar tender, organise free drinks for all
> Make up some reason to go get changed or something to "be right back."
> Pickpocket
If i wait politely for them to respond ICly - the timer has already gone and they know what i've done.

I like the notification the recipient recieves, however it should definitely be drawn out a bit longer to say 5 minutes.

Also of note - i'm not sure whats going on with the inbuilt cooldown, but after some testing, i could only pickpocket a player 1x per 3 OOC days.

Either:
A: Its using the old time for its calculations, so has been extended 3.3x
B: If you try to pickpocket the same target within 24 hours (say, 23 hours - and i tested this on a friend) - it resets the cooldown.
Some clarity around said mechanic would be nice if it was A or B.

PP is a way to make EZ money... lots and LOTS of it ...with minimal risk and 0 RP interaction.


Let's compare it to the way most characters make gp

1. crafting - need to venture into a moderately dangerous area, gather resources (and have STR to haul the resources so that it does not take forever), invest time actually crafting the merchandise, have an access to a shop where these are sold, take time to go around other shops to compare prices so that the merch actually sells

2. loot - need to venture into a bit more dangerous areas, invest time to grind PvE content, gather loot (and have STR to haul it so that it does not take forever), sort and sell to the merchant NPC

3. treasure - need to have an optimized build, tackle dangerous endgame PvE content to mine high end crafting materials, have an access to a shop where these are sold, take time to go around other shops to compare prices so that the merch actually sells

4. business - have an access to a shop and GP, invest a lot of time to periodically check other shops for prices, invest GP to buy underpriced merch, sell with a markup in own shop


Then compare with:

5. Pick Pocket - invest in PP, stealth and bluff, periodically log in, enter populated areas, play pinball with the PCs present, cash in, log off, rinse repeat.
There's very little that the other PCs can do to stop this too - even if the thief gets found out, exposed and exiled, they can still enter their turf (Bluff) and keep doing their thing. Even if they get caught and killed 5%-10% of the time, they end up with a net positive income.