Arelith

Brandon Steel wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:12 pm

Xerah wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:58 pm It's not odd at all. Your dedication to necromancy is different.

A PM is actively trying to change their body.

A necromancer is studying undead and the spell school.

The goal is not to stack everything on PM or make things redundant.

Pretty much everything I’ve read regarding pale master’s regards them as people who have studied and been dedicated to necromancy and undeath to such an extent that they begin to turn themselves undead because of their great understanding of the school, allowing them to do it capably. It commonly refers to pale masters as the masters of necromancy. For me it really doesn’t make sense, but I guess it can be viewed that they’re more focused on the undead and raising corpses through necromancy than the other arcane aspects of it. I would just have to assume you would have to have an extreme knowledge of the school to even be able to get to a point where you can basically become undead yourself.

What's the point of two different classes then? You could use the argument that druids are masters of the wild so they should get everything the ranger does too. Class division is more interesting when there are decisions to make and not automatic answers.

These specialist changes are explicitly for necromancy specialists, not pale masters.

Xerah wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:21 pm

Brandon Steel wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 9:12 pm

Xerah wrote: Wed Mar 10, 2021 8:58 pm It's not odd at all. Your dedication to necromancy is different.

A PM is actively trying to change their body.

A necromancer is studying undead and the spell school.

The goal is not to stack everything on PM or make things redundant.

Pretty much everything I’ve read regarding pale master’s regards them as people who have studied and been dedicated to necromancy and undeath to such an extent that they begin to turn themselves undead because of their great understanding of the school, allowing them to do it capably. It commonly refers to pale masters as the masters of necromancy. For me it really doesn’t make sense, but I guess it can be viewed that they’re more focused on the undead and raising corpses through necromancy than the other arcane aspects of it. I would just have to assume you would have to have an extreme knowledge of the school to even be able to get to a point where you can basically become undead yourself.

What's the point of two different classes then? You could use the argument that druids are masters of the wild so they should get everything the ranger does too. Class division is more interesting when there are decisions to make and not automatic answers.

These specialist changes are explicitly for necromancy specialists, not pale masters.

Ok, you just straw manned the point I’m trying to make entirely and avoided lore that is established and I simply pointed out. I’m aware it’s different mechanically and that’s probably what you’re shooting for. I said from a roleplay standpoint it seems strange that someone has mastered the school to such a point they are capable of making themself undead yet they don’t understand it enough to cast spells from the school to the same level as a specialist wizard, in my opinion there’s a reason why it was added that necromancy in particular scales 1:1 with caster and PM levels and that being a PM even buffs some necromancy skills to be more powerful, they have that understanding of necromancy and focused on it so much that they have forsaken their other schools to achieve what they have, but when it comes to necromancy in particular they are very, very good at it and understand it particularly well. For all intents and purposes I would view pale masters themselves as the epitome of what a specialist wizard can achieve with full dedication to their school, but that could be viewed differently as well as I said before. You can view it as just mastering the art of raising the dead and forsaking the rest of necromancy, but the lore that’s established for them seems to point that out differently and the 1:1 scaling with necromancy implemented on Arelith would lead me to believe that as well. Maybe that’s misguided but from what little I’ve gathered of them it states they’re masters of necromancy and augmented their bodies because of their vast knowledge in it.

Druids and rangers have enough difference between them that statement doesn’t really even make sense. Druids being connected with nature and seeking balance doesn’t automatically make you skilled with weapons or the particular focus in enemies/creatures and their strengths and weaknesses that would be associated with rangers, it’s two different things entirely. Being a palemaster from what I’ve gathered is literally hand in hand with understanding necromancy so well you’ve nigh mastered it, so why does it make sense that they’re lesser at it than people who have the same grasp of it as they do?

Again I understand this probably just balance related and I get that if it’s the case, I just thought it was strange that someone who is the supposed master of a school is incapable of being a “specialist”. It’s just a weird outlier that maybe isn’t worth putting much thought into.

What? You're not incapable of being a necromancy specialist as a palemaster.

No, there’s just not much of a point if you want to dip into palemaster because you’ll be forsaking multiple wizard levels.

Edit: this might be incorrect, I swear I saw something that specialists had to have 75%\80% wizard levels for it to be in effect but I don’t see it in the update notes.

Does not appear to have been brought up yet, but for Illusionists it might be worth considering a different Signature spell than Nightmare.

Don't get me wrong, I love the spell (anything that adds more variety to the cursing options is fantastic) BUT the spell has a built in synergy with Sleep. Which is an enchantment. Which is the forbidden School for Illusionists.

In my opinion, if you wanna draw a mechanical distinction between specialist wizards, and PMs


Have Pm continue to be the option for those that summon undead, as they are


And make specialist necromancers focus more on the DC based spells perhaps starting level 15 and on to level 20, as a PM will likely minimum grab 10th level for crit immunity.

The DC spells i know are having a rework but the distinction being that a specialist wizard focuses more on spells where the PM focuses more on the undead aspect

Not an awful idea.

There is more to the Necromancy school than "Hur hur, I evil I make zombie!" Necromancy is the School of Magic focused upon the magics of Life and Death. As it stands, the Arelith specific bonuses for focusing in Necromancy are virtually all related to animating the dead, if you are a necromancy specialist and not evil, you get pretty much nothing.

Fine, keep the epic spell focus as is, plenty of characters have built around that I am sure, but with Palemaster out there already for Necromancy mages that want to specialise in Undead, perhaps the Necromancer class should get benefits in some other fashion?

I like the specialty spells, Circle of Death is a good example of the focus on death, and Undeath to Death is a good highlight of the fact the school can be ANTI undead too, so I am not inclined to suggest a change there.

DC on necromancy spells (restricted to high levels to avoid further buffing palemasters)?
Death Armour - Hours/Level or Increased Damage?
Circle of Doom 1d8/level damage? Up to 10d8 maybe? I dunno, something, anything to make it remotely useful for a level 5 spell...
Access to Death Ward?
Vampiric Touch heals the user rather than granting Temp HP, or grants Temp HP if healing is more than max hp?
Eyebite becomes area effect? Or Sicken effect is permanent? (Seriously, short duration -2 debuf to single target for a level 6 spell slot?)
Halt Undead effects more than three targets? 1HD per level perhaps? 3 Targets standard, 6 with GSF 8 with ESF?

Some sort of cookie for the Necromancer who studies the school for reasons other than dragging the dead along on their adventures would be nice.

Hinty wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 4:29 pm Not an awful idea.

There is more to the Necromancy school than "Hur hur, I evil I make zombie!" Necromancy is the School of Magic focused upon the magics of Life and Death. As it stands, the Arelith specific bonuses for focusing in Necromancy are virtually all related to animating the dead, if you are a necromancy specialist and not evil, you get pretty much nothing.

Fine, keep the epic spell focus as is, plenty of characters have built around that I am sure, but with Palemaster out there already for Necromancy mages that want to specialise in Undead, perhaps the Necromancer class should get benefits in some other fashion?

I like the specialty spells, Circle of Death is a good example of the focus on death, and Undeath to Death is a good highlight of the fact the school can be ANTI undead too, so I am not inclined to suggest a change there.

DC on necromancy spells (restricted to high levels to avoid further buffing palemasters)?
Death Armour - Hours/Level or Increased Damage?
Circle of Doom 1d8/level damage? Up to 10d8 maybe? I dunno, something, anything to make it remotely useful for a level 5 spell...
Access to Death Ward?
Vampiric Touch heals the user rather than granting Temp HP, or grants Temp HP if healing is more than max hp?
Eyebite becomes area effect? Or Sicken effect is permanent? (Seriously, short duration -2 debuf to single target for a level 6 spell slot?)
Halt Undead effects more than three targets? 1HD per level perhaps? 3 Targets standard, 6 with GSF 8 with ESF?

Some sort of cookie for the Necromancer who studies the school for reasons other than dragging the dead along on their adventures would be nice.

I love all these ideas, honestly.

It would be great for necro specialists to synergize with non PM things.


As it stands i think currently a necro specialist is getting things you either get as a PM anyway, which if we are being honest if your plan is a necro wizard you are likely going to take atleast 3 to 10 levels in PM anyway

Id like to see necro specialists get perks starting at 8, 15, 18, 20, and 25 as those are the levels that dipping into PM make PM less worthwhile. 5 pm doesnt net the bone arm but does net +2 AC for example as well as other pm bonuses.

10 pm gains the crit immunity but not mummydust/EDk

16 PM required for EDk so taking 15 wizard levels locks that off

And an 8th level perk so that taking Necro specialist and PM doesnt gimp you for losing premonition



As far as WoF goes, the idea of nerfing something or removing a feature due to user error is a fallacy, and frankly doesnt make sense.

If you limit soemthing that takes skill to use, then you effectively remove skill based play.


Ive played PMs on and off for 3-4 years. And have used Dread mummies effectively in PvP as well as PvE. Infact most recently the choice of mummies instead of vampires effectively won me a tournament against a higher level wizard opponent due to the blind and WoF banishment getting a good roll.

This may be an edge case, but having the ability to choose is more important.


I will say this with a caviat. This is infact a nerf for all ES: Mummy dust users. And not all mummy dust users are wizards.

This effectively nerfs palemasters, clerics, favored souls etc who have mummy dust.

Any chance of getting lore master levels to count for tenser?