Arelith

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:02 am**

Alright, so from now on, can all characters get 10k thrown at them daily? You know, since we're so entitled to want to roleplay.

Trust me, I'm not wasting 10k on rezzing anyone when I can just take them to an altar and neither is anyone else. So guess what the dead people get to do? Oh, right, sit around and do nothing. Stay logged into Neverwinter, but not participate. AFK, I guess? The options are limitless!

I really don't like your attitude about this, so I'm done from here.

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:07 am**

MissEvelyn wrote: A low level today can easily make that amount of money. With metal scraps to sell, food to sell (this one doesn't give much tbh), pelts to sell, not to mention all the gemstones and jewelry, 10k isn't so hard to come by, even if you're a low level.

Clarification: 10k isn't so hard to come by if you're not new player to the server.

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:52 am**

There has to be SOMETHNIG. Personally I never had any issues with losing 3k exp when I respawn but it was removed because of the Bash'em-to-3 mentality. Later the heavy exp lose was gone and the post-death penalty was added. Now this. Out of all the past alternatives, this one has not been tried yet (putting the money and the peity as the currency, not the heavy exp lose and/or RL time you sit in the Death area). It's actually interesting because now it's easier to tell you who your character's friends and enemies are (because they need to actually spend a lot of money and piety to raise you) and this as well promotes conflicts and/or friendships.

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:58 pm**

Agreed. And not only that, now you actually see your Piety drop below 70%. Whereas before my piety was constantly maxed out. People have said before that piety is so easy to raise. Well now there's incentive for it.

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:49 pm**

JediZero wrote:
MissEvelyn wrote: A low level today can easily make that amount of money. With metal scraps to sell, food to sell (this one doesn't give much tbh), pelts to sell, not to mention all the gemstones and jewelry, 10k isn't so hard to come by, even if you're a low level.
Clarification: 10k isn't so hard to come by if you're not new player to the server.

If you're new, you're probably going to be the dead one that needs raising, not the raisee.
And if you're new, people are much more inclined to give you gold and or raise scrolls, too!

Or they could play a Cleric.

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:08 pm**

The fact that people are at all okay with this still boggles my mind.

Resurrection and raise dead scrolls got hit with three nerf bats when just one of those would have been enough to fix the problem.

Either take them away from npc vendors so players have to make them for there to be any.
OR
Make them use a lot of piety whenever a person does use one even if bought from an NPC.

But instead, they were removed from npcs, the crafting price was multiplied by 10 or more, AND the piety use was multiplied by twenty five to fifty.

so now the scrolls have been smashed into the ground (for some reason people still quoting 10,000.. im sorry but people dont and never have sold scrolls for the price they are crafted at, thats not a sale thats a giveaway) and now there are altars absolutely everywhere, your character doesnt know who the altar belongs to and so as far as im concerned shouldnt be praying there, doing so just feels like ooc convenience than "enhancing role play".

the adding of free altars just makes people even less likely than they already were to raise people, and if you find sitting in the death area afk to be enhancing your RP im not sure what kind of RP you are doing before hand if afk'ing trumps that.

so. three nerf bats to scrolls, then another just to the idea of using a scroll to begin with, and then another in the form of book of souls, which are not hard to find at all and have NO detriments to using, even though they are literally scrolls writen onto pages of a book, meaning the scroll market has been utterly, utterly destroyed, and zero role play was enhanced.

MissEvelyn wrote:Agreed. And not only that, now you actually see your Piety drop below 70%. Whereas before my piety was constantly maxed out. People have said before that piety is so easy to raise. Well now there's incentive for it.

Try hearth and home, when i go out on adventure, I dont have the AC to survive getting attacked, I dont have the damage or ab to hit anything, so im just stood around for the entire time (which is fine) but just warding my party puts me in the 85 region of piety, which seems to already make it impossible to get a god save, and if we are dungeon crawling for an hour im down to 60. and it just keeps getting lower and lower with no way of bringing it back up. sure i could bring a few dozen of those pouches that each have 4 minor healing uses.

people already need to get blind drunk to craft scrolls and to even be able to sleep, now also going to have to walk around dungeons sniffing healing dust like a crack addict? how is this enhancing my RP? I already refuse to acknowledge the fact my character drinks obscene amounts of spirits because the rest mechanic is dumb.

Changes like this are not fun for anybody, they arent fun for me as the maker of the scrolls, they arent fun for anybody using the scrolls, and they arent fun for the people that have to wait because nobody is stupid enough to buy said scrolls.

this entire change seems like it was trying to hit an anthill sized problem with nuclear weapons.

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:29 pm**

Diilicious wrote:Lots of Unhappy things.

So, to try and address this in some sort of order...

Firstly, everyone is different. What you like might not be what everyone else likes, and that's okay, you know? We don't all have to be 100% every aspect of the game. It might 'Boggle the mind' that people are okay with this, but it 'Boggles my mind' that your character gets blind drunk to be able to rest and cast.

Raising the dead sure got a _Huge_ change in terms of style and theme. It did that, because the Admins whom give their time and effort to crafting the server, feel that this is the direction they want to move the setting into. It sure is different. Like Evelyn said though, it's an 'Adjustment'. I've played, and died! A lot since the update and been inconvienced by it, either by having a scroll I can't use, or not having a scroll. And you know what? It's been fine. At low levels I've respawned and moved on, changed characters or whatever, and at higher levels by and large I've been dragged back and raised by my party, which generated a lot more RP than, waking up two seconds later and resuming the crawl as if nothing had happened.
This is different. Some people [Me!] will like it more, others [You!] will like it less. I disliked Scholar's Warlock Nerfs, other people loved them. S'all good!

Hearth and Home has sucky Piety generation, absolutely. This is an entirely separate issue, though. If you're saying this change is bad because H&H sucks, the issue is not the change, but a pre-existing issue with the piety generation of some aspects. Wack a suggestion in the suggestion forum as to how to even that out. [Though at +.5% per healing spell cast, it's not that bad if you're playing a cleric, favoured soul, or Warlock - Woe betide any other class, however!]

"Changes like this arn't fun for anybody."
I'm sorry Delicious, I like you, I do, and I've roleplayed with you in the past. But you _Can't_ make sweeping statements like this. This change _Is_ fun for me. It's not fun for you. And it probably makes zero difference for other people. It's okay to use the forums to put your own point across, but please don't make sweeping statements for everyone else. Mithreas has often spoken on this point before, and the Admins have to take into account both their vision and the whole playerbase and it's differing views, of which it should be stressed we of the forum are a vocal minority.

Look at the numbers of unique players per month. Look at the number of people posting regularly in the forum. There's more views out their than just us.

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:34 pm**

I like the change myself. Though, I do think the cost for scribing the scrolls is a little steep. Perhaps a 1/2 to 1/3 decrease in cost may make it a bit more tolerable.

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:18 pm**

I've withheld comment on this originally, however having played with it for a while: I've found that the main thing that the new raise change does is make it really, really difficult to be courteous after hostile PvP. Before, I'd offer courtesy raises for people who were caught in the crossfire, but at 10k (and 50% piety) per raise, that's rather hard to justify doing at this point in time. I admire the sentiment behind the change for PvE purposes (Adventuring deaths now force people to either stop and return to town with their fallen companion, or spend a lot of gold to carry on), I just worry about its broader implications with respects to roleplay that goes to mechanical PvP.

To this end, I'd like to suggest that players killed in PvE can be raised at any altar, instead of just toolset-painted ones. This means less downtime for victims, allows for the surviving party to offer courtesy raises without going massively out of their way (or sacrificing thousands of gold and piety), and just generally makes PvP deaths on the whole a lot less frustrating with a net zero impact on PvE.

Thoughts?

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:01 pm**

A lot has been said, a lot has already been answered.

and now there are altars absolutely everywhere, your character doesnt know who the altar belongs to and so as far as im concerned shouldnt be praying there, doing so just feels like ooc convenience than "enhancing role play".

I do want to dispute this, however. When your friend is dead and you're carrying them in hopes to find someone to help them, your personal convictions shouldn't be more important than your DEAD friend. THAT in itself is ridiculous and 'feels more ooc' than anything. Our characters are not gods, they're mortals. They HAVE to rely on multiple gods, not just one.

So when you stumble upon a wayside shrine that's likely used by Aurilites (in the cold mountains). Guess what? It's perfectly IN LINE with the FR setting to ask the Frostqueen to revive your friend. Unless you're a dedicated Cleric (and even then there's leniency depending on your deity), you should be desperate to revive your friend by almost all means. Pleading at an evil human deity's altar for your friend to return to the world of the living does NOT equal selling your soul to the depths of the Hells.

EDIT: And before you say "nope my good character would never do that." Well, then your character is not good at all, but a stubborn jerk who cares more about his own principles than his friend. That's not right at all.

In a world where it's perfectly normal and expected to be polytheistic, I find it immersion-breaking when someone pretends their gods is the only right one and no one else matters.

Posted: **Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:32 pm**

Even if the altar is used by Aurilites sometimes, if it isn't desecrated then it's no more Auril's than Akadi's (for example) or any other deity.

And even if it is consecrated to Auril, you can still gain favour with Akadi by praying there, so Akadi obviously can hear your prayers at that altar anyway.

Posted: **Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:49 am**

Diilicious wrote:Resurrection and raise dead scrolls got hit with three nerf bats when just one of those would have been enough to fix the problem.

LichBait wrote:I do think the cost for scribing the scrolls is a little steep. Perhaps a 1/2 to 1/3 decrease in cost may make it a bit more tolerable.

This

Rwby wrote:There's more views out their than just us.

Exactly, and the only people ive spoken to about this do not like it at all, myself included, only the tiny sample of people on the forum seem to be all for it.

MissEvelyn wrote:A lot has been said, a lot has already been answered.
and now there are altars absolutely everywhere, your character doesnt know who the altar belongs to and so as far as im concerned shouldnt be praying there, doing so just feels like ooc convenience than "enhancing role play".
I do want to dispute this, however. When your friend is dead and you're carrying them in hopes to find someone to help them, your personal convictions shouldn't be more important than your DEAD friend. THAT in itself is ridiculous and 'feels more ooc' than anything. Our characters are not gods, they're mortals. They HAVE to rely on multiple gods, not just one.

Nobody was disputing this at all

MissEvelyn wrote:So when you stumble upon a wayside shrine that's likely used by Aurilites (in the cold mountains). Guess what? It's perfectly IN LINE with the FR setting to ask the Frostqueen to revive your friend. Unless you're a dedicated Cleric (and even then there's leniency depending on your deity), you should be desperate to revive your friend by almost all means. Pleading at an evil human deity's altar for your friend to return to the world of the living does NOT equal selling your soul to the depths of the Hells.

It is ooc convenience because said diety has absolutely no reason to revive you or any other random person that you manage to drag to an altar, your personal convictions aside. For most people encountering a evil diety altar (or a good diety altar in the reverse case) you are there because you have probably been murdering followers of said altar on mass clearing out entire dungeons, why the hell would they revive you or your friend? The gods arent stupid

MissEvelyn wrote:EDIT: And before you say "nope my good character would never do that." Well, then your character is not good at all, but a stubborn jerk who cares more about his own principles than his friend. That's not right at all.

Bzzzzzt

Maybe from the perspective of somebody who is true neutral this might be true, but how about flipping it round and saying that anyone that expects a person to cast aside their beliefs when it becomes inconvienient to them is also being a disrespectful jerk, who cares only about themselves than his friends.

from the perspective of the person that died, you died how do you even know you will be getting brought back? You should be counting your blessings in the hopes of that happening at all, not sitting there like "well if they dont do xyz then they're selfish jerks" what kind of nonesense is that?

People should be looking at the bigger picture, and giving power to random evil entities will not end well for insert opposite group of alignment persons, that is what a truely good person would be thinking.

Posted: **Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:07 am**

I'm going to side with Dill on this one. Part of being good is praying to goodly deities. However, most wayside shrines aren't consecrated to any particular deity, even if Aurilites are using it. So you can pray to whatever god you want at them.

Posted: **Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:23 pm**

And again, even if the altar is consecrated to evil, you can still pray to your goodly deity at that altar.

Chauntea will hear your prayers and grant you favor even at a Banite altar. You aren't praying to Bane and getting piety with Chauntea!

Posted: **Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:49 pm**

Lorkas wrote:Even if the altar is used by Aurilites sometimes, if it isn't desecrated then it's no more Auril's than Akadi's (for example) or any other deity.

And even if it is consecrated to Auril, you can still gain favour with Akadi by praying there, so Akadi obviously can hear your prayers at that altar anyway.

Lorkas wrote:And again, even if the altar is consecrated to evil, you can still pray to your goodly deity at that altar.

Chauntea will hear your prayers and grant you favor even at a Banite altar. You aren't praying to Bane and getting piety with Chauntea!

This. It has nothing to do with the small, off-track discussion (sorry OP!), but it's still applicable against the argument that it's breaking immersion (which it is not) to pray at an altar consecrated to another deity.

Posted: **Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:49 pm**

Posted: **Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:47 pm**

Having been raised and having had to be raised since the update- I like the change.

I would lower the price of raise dead scrolls, though. The diamonds for that are only supposed to cost 5K. Resurrection is the one that should cost 10K.

Fun fact- just think how screwed you'd all be if they actually required you to go out and collect (and cut) the diamonds that the 10k you're spending is supposed to represent.

Posted: **Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:24 am**

I personally like the change, because death means something and it makes clerics exciting to have in your party. I've read through all the complaints, and I get fully both sides. But the reality is that dying on a dungeon and having to respawn for negligible xp and the inability to finish the dungeon while your friends do seems like a decent replacement for taking a large percentage of xp which is what I am used to. Just to give a random story of why I thought raise dead scrolls were treated as a novelty before the change:

I'm in the city, someone asks me to raise their friend (I play a cleric). I take the time to say a few prayers and stuff, praise my god, and in that minute or so someone walking by hits the dead body with a raise scroll. Now putting aside the jackassery of that, since after 15 years of this game that's pretty easy to laugh and and move on, that tells me that raise dead scrolls were a commodity that was too readily available if someone would waste it on that.

I also challenge the notion that getting gold is hard for anyone on this server, even noobs. I started arelith 2 months ago, been playing my current character for a month and a half. and I had enough gold to buy a boat when the opportunity presented itself. I just spent 70k on wands and potions (love me some heals) and still have close to 100k in the bank. Now, I am not your average noob and I play a cleric which saves me likely an insane amount of gold, but I feel comfortable enough that no matter what i was playing I could afford a rainy day scroll of raise dead even if it cost me 20k, which i feel like every character should have. Once its used, well you can discuss how you are reimbursed so you can get another one (we made 15k on this dungeon, lets give it all to jonny since he raised jane!). As for the piety, well, praying at an altar from time to time does wonders for that. In a pinch, I can always water some plants.

In other words, I like the change even though for my personal tastes death is not harsh enough. It seems like a healthy compromise.

Posted: **Mon Jul 10, 2017 8:51 am**

I hope you got money wrote:
I also challenge the notion that getting gold is hard for anyone on this server, even noobs. I started arelith 2 months ago, been playing my current character for a month and a half. and I had enough gold to buy a boat when the opportunity presented itself. I just spent 70k on wands and potions (love me some heals) and still have close to 100k in the bank.

Knowing how to get gold =/= having the time or inclination to do it. If you're able to rack up 200k in a month and a half, then you're likely not the sort of player whom this update most inconveniences.

Posted: **Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:13 am**

Marsi wrote:
I hope you got money wrote:
I also challenge the notion that getting gold is hard for anyone on this server, even noobs. I started arelith 2 months ago, been playing my current character for a month and a half. and I had enough gold to buy a boat when the opportunity presented itself. I just spent 70k on wands and potions (love me some heals) and still have close to 100k in the bank.
Knowing how to get gold =/= having the time or inclination to do it. If you're able to rack up 200k in a month and a half, then you're likely not the sort of player whom this update most inconveniences.

Well, I admit to having a lot of time to play this summer and that may play a factor in how much I made, but my point is still valid since its more like half a mil I have racked up in a month and a half if you include all the gold I have already spent. So, unless you are standing about and never out killing stuff I find it hard to believe that being able to afford 14k for a raise dead scroll (a price I just saw in a random store, not sure if that's cheap or high at this point) is hard for anyone. Unless you don't go out at all, in which case, why do you need the raise dead scroll in the first place?

Posted: **Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:40 am**

I hope you got money wrote:
Well, I admit to having a lot of time to play this summer and that may play a factor in how much I made, but my point is still valid since its more like half a mil I have racked up in a month and a half if you include all the gold I have already spent. So, unless you are standing about and never out killing stuff I find it hard to believe that being able to afford 14k for a raise dead scroll (a price I just saw in a random store, not sure if that's cheap or high at this point) is hard for anyone. Unless you don't go out at all, in which case, why do you need the raise dead scroll in the first place?

I'll reiterate what I said before: not everyone has the time or the inclination to do that. Should their enjoyment of adventure/PvE, when they happen to partake in it, suffer for it? Not to mention accruing that sort of wealth in the first place is now far more difficult.

Posted: **Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:54 am**

I had to look for a Wayside Shrine the other day, it was certainly an enjoyable experience. I kinda of enjoy the new revival changes having finally suffered through trying to revive some random body I found for like 45 minutes.

But I am just a glutton for punishment so who knows. Underdark definitely needs more shrines just sitting on the road however. I still have not found a shrine in Anduinor, I had to teleport to the temple of the mask in the shadow planes.

Posted: **Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:15 am**

Marsi wrote:
I hope you got money wrote:
Well, I admit to having a lot of time to play this summer and that may play a factor in how much I made, but my point is still valid since its more like half a mil I have racked up in a month and a half if you include all the gold I have already spent. So, unless you are standing about and never out killing stuff I find it hard to believe that being able to afford 14k for a raise dead scroll (a price I just saw in a random store, not sure if that's cheap or high at this point) is hard for anyone. Unless you don't go out at all, in which case, why do you need the raise dead scroll in the first place?
I'll reiterate what I said before: not everyone has the time or the inclination to do that. Should their enjoyment of adventure/PvE, when they happen to partake in it, suffer for it? Not to mention accruing that sort of wealth in the first place is now far more difficult.

Well, I guess we are just missing each other here on our points, because my point is your RP doesn't have to suffer (not that I see it that way if i had to find a shrine but for the sake of debate). The only thing that suffers is your gold stack if you suck it up and make sure you always have a scroll. I would even argue that the level of roleplay increases because of the higher cost of death, even though that cost is still really nothing. 14k is one lower to mid level dungeon.

Posted: **Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:40 am**

I hope you got money wrote: 14k is one lower to mid level dungeon.

It's quite debateable on what counts as a lower to mid level dungeon... but that is way more than I've been making in a dungeon, soloing, with a lower to mid level character.

~3000 gp has been the norm for most of the Cordor region (levels 1-7), same is true for the arelith forest circuit.

An extended period in the lower swamps might get 10k at a push for low/mid 10-12... again, soloing.

However, as soon as you add a party (and therefore can push up the difficulty scale on the dungeons) that gold level drops because you need to share.

At the moment my game time is distinctly curtailed (new puppy) but I can manage about 2 hours in one stint, and that will get me easily 5k, around arelith forest.

So that's about 4-8h game play per raise scroll, soloing on a low to mid level character, with no expenses other than kits.

Posted: **Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:12 pm**

Kirito wrote:
I hope you got money wrote: 14k is one lower to mid level dungeon.
It's quite debateable on what counts as a lower to mid level dungeon... but that is way more than I've been making in a dungeon, soloing, with a lower to mid level character.

This may be very true, I don't know what the actual "standard" is but everything i have heard I tend to be on the high end if not super high for.

~3000 gp has been the norm for most of the Cordor region (levels 1-7), same is true for the arelith forest circuit.

I tended to do better then this in the sewers and way better then this in the iron mines, can't really speak for the near by forest because I was told never to hunt goblins there anymore by a pc goblin some time ago in exchange for not being a slave.

An extended period in the lower swamps might get 10k at a push for low/mid 10-12... again, soloing.

Again, I did a little better then this in the swamps and unless you mean 45 minutes by an extended period then I'm not sure what I was doing was extended. I just went to the boss and back to the city the few times i did this.

However, as soon as you add a party (and therefore can push up the difficulty scale on the dungeons) that gold level drops because you need to share.

Well, part of the point of my first post was that while everyone should buy at least one scroll as soon as you get to the level where raising becomes a thing, and the party should help recoup the losses by chipping in when you use it. I also find that the overall gold tends to be slightly better in a party then it does when you are soloing. Raise scrolls are useless soloing anyways, so...

At the moment my game time is distinctly curtailed (new puppy) but I can manage about 2 hours in one stint, and that will get me easily 5k, around arelith forest.

Enjoy, I love my doggie!

So that's about 4-8h game play per raise scroll, soloing on a low to mid level character, with no expenses other than kits.

Again, this assumes that you and you alone are assuming the cost of the scroll beyond the first one you buy. And all of this assumes that there are no other options, like bringing a cleric, respawning or the apparent rp killing effort of carrying your fallen buddy to a near by shrine.

Arelith

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