Warlocks

[Realoms]

I love the new warlocks, but I have to agree, DCs are kinda low. Not in need of a super massive buff, but I think some buff would help from what I've experience so far.

Edit: Also worth noting that sleep in its current state looses effectiveness really, really fast. Perhaps a removal of the HD cap or make it up to the HD of the caster? Or even just a little bit bigger.

[Hamatreya]

What level is your 'lock now?

I enjoy the new warlocks so much and they have so many perks that I almost feel bad asking for more, but I have to be honest, the stat spread is a little suffocating. I'd love to see DCs (on both fey and fiend warlocks) modified, if only slightly.

Before the change, the DCs on dominates, for instance, was 10 + 1/2 Warlock level + Charisma mod + feats, which was fairly over-the-top considering it could get your DCs into the mid-forties.

Even if you plan on pumping charisma as much as you can as a lock, while retaining some level of survivability, your DCs aren't going to break 34. "Meh."

[Realoms]

I've been testing it with hold person mostly, on both a 9th level warlock.

[Hyoma]

Wouldn't this be the bestest opportunity to finally allow Warlocks their well deserved ability for Epic Spell Focus?

I've seen it discussed many a times, and surely there's more than enough RP support behind it, only question is implementability?

[Preacher]

with the warlock class I've been a purist. 30 lvl's of warlock is my goal

[Hamatreya]

Wouldn't this be the bestest opportunity to finally allow Warlocks their well deserved ability for Epic Spell Focus?

I've seen it discussed many a times, and surely there's more than enough RP support behind it, only question is implementability?

Meh. I don't think that would be thematically appropriate.
Giving warlocks the same ultimate abilities as other classes in addition to the plethora of perks they already have just seems like too much. Their DCs really do need some love, though, as I've stated, even with heavy focus and feat dump into Charisma, your DCs won't break the low 30s.

[Bragnir]

Something I've noticed with the warlock change is, although the old staff has lost it's spell, it's still untradeable (which makes it unenchantable and unstorable), plus it weights 4 lbs, making it dead weight on a low str char.

Now, I'm not asking to have it removed: I'd really like to keep the staff, if only as a memento... Still, would there be any way to make it able to receive enchantments? Or just reduce its weight to 0, if that's impossible?

[The Rambling Midget]

It should become droppable if you alter its appearance. (unless that was fixed)

My Warlock successfully dropped her staff just a few weeks ago.

[Bragnir]

It works! Thank you!

[RedGiant]

Been messing with it for two days on some old characters...

My current 2 cents is...

For Abyssals/Infernals, this is a greaaat update. They are massively enhanced in survivability, and the epic summons are actually an improvement on their previous capstone ability of summoning an easily dispatched balor.

For Fey Pacts, well, this is another story. Their capstone ability is now Ethereal Visage, which they could all cast before...and much earlier. Granted its now unlimited, but if you really wanted to, with scrolls and wands, it effectively was on old bards/warlocks to begin with. In this vein, what is really missing is any type of capstone ability. The loss of dominate monster and any and almost all ability to heal allies hamstrings Fey Pacters.

In short, Abyssals now have abilities which are more powerful than their previous abilities, capstones included. Fey Pacters are, in my opinion, actually less powerful than they were before the update.

Recommend tweaking Fey Pact. Easiest way IMO is a much earlier ethereal visage and a return of dominate monster.

[Side note: Aren't all "charm" spells actually non-functional due to NWN bugs?]

[b a t t l e]

So how about this: Eth visage moves down a few levels, replaced with a custom dominate person- Functions as dominate monster, and gives the dominated creature +2 to ab and damage per enchantment focus. Maybe uncap their lower level healing spell to do dice + half warlock level. It's not like it matters how much your unlimited healing heals, outside of action economy.

[Hamatreya]

Been messing with it for two days on some old characters...

My current 2 cents is...

For Abyssals/Infernals, this is a greaaat update. They are massively enhanced in survivability, and the epic summons are actually an improvement on their previous capstone ability of summoning an easily dispatched balor.

For Fey Pacts, well, this is another story. Their capstone ability is now Ethereal Visage, which they could all cast before...and much earlier. Granted its now unlimited, but if you really wanted to, with scrolls and wands, it effectively was on old bards/warlocks to begin with. In this vein, what is really missing is any type of capstone ability. The loss of dominate monster and any and almost all ability to heal allies hamstrings Fey Pacters.

In short, Abyssals now have abilities which are more powerful than their previous abilities, capstones included. Fey Pacters are, in my opinion, actually less powerful than they were before the update.

Recommend tweaking Fey Pact. Easiest way IMO is a much earlier ethereal visage and a return of dominate monster.

[Side note: Aren't all "charm" spells actually non-functional due to NWN bugs?]

Fey pacters can remain invisible indefinitely, can dominate (albeit the DC is pitifully low) humanoids to tank for them, and are excellent support to any party. Dominate Monster isn't going to happen, as all of the spells cast by either incarnation of warlock are bard-specific. That being said I was disappointed when ethereal visage was bumped up to level 28, as that means my character won't be getting it. Oh, well.

So how about this: Eth visage moves down a few levels, replaced with a custom dominate person- Functions as dominate monster, and gives the dominated creature +2 to ab and damage per enchantment focus. Maybe uncap their lower level healing spell to do dice + half warlock level. It's not like it matters how much your unlimited healing heals, outside of action economy.

Eh. We're still petitioning for a modest DC buff.
We should consider the fact that this new face to the warlock class involves "over 500 lines of code" as it is, so... beggars, choosers, etc.


ALSO ... has sleep been modified? My level 5 warlock just knocked himself out.

[The Rambling Midget]

Maybe uncap their lower level healing spell to do dice + half warlock level. It's not like it matters how much your unlimited healing heals, outside of action economy.

The point of having it heal only a small amount is to prevent it from being used as life support during combat.

[Hamatreya]

Maybe uncap their lower level healing spell to do dice + half warlock level. It's not like it matters how much your unlimited healing heals, outside of action economy.

The point of having it heal only a small amount is to prevent it from being used as life support during combat.

I don't see why anyone would use it out of combat, either; especially when you have ~300 hp and it heals, at most, 8hp/round. As I see it, real life time is /way/ more valuable than 4 or 5 healing kits. Sure, it's super useful to save on kits when you're level 5 (as I am), but how many people are really going to spend that much real life time patching themselves up with cure minor wounds? Like sleep, cure minor wounds is practically useless after the early teens or so, unless I'm missing something.

[The Rambling Midget]

As I see it, real life time is /way/ more valuable than 4 or 5 healing kits.

Absolutely.

Think of it as a backup plan for the worst case scenario, rather than a method of regular healing.

[RedGiant]

In this bard-specific-spell-line of thought, consider the following.

Abyssals have a /tweaked/ Summon VI, which summons a /Balor Lord/! This is the equivalent of Gate Spell....heck...maybe its now even 20x better than old gate spell. This is an awesome capstone power. /And/ its unlimited.

Fey Pacters have nothing even remotely equivalent to that. Yes they can haste and hold...and once in a blue moon dominate, but as it stands now so can Weave Masters and Favored Souls, and they can do it much earlier, and are good at a lot of other things.

My contention is Fey Pacters are more or less one-two trick ponies. They are most easily haste and hold support for parties, their greatest sin being that either Bard or Favored Soul do what they do earlier and better.

[Hunter548]

Neither bards nor favored souls can do it infinity without cooldown. Any party with a fey warlock in it should be hasted, forever, which is very powerful. They also get two blasts around under their own power, compared to fiend warlocks, and are much more capable of multiclassing.

[Ecstatic]

Nor do bards or favored souls have the ability to keep doing 2 counts of no-save magic damage while they're crowd controlling. I'm about 3000% more concerned about facing up against an epic fey warlock than I was a week ago.

I'd also feel comfortable trying to level one now.

[dragoneyeIIVX]

Yeah, seriously guys. The class just got some MAJOR love, both in the lore and power departments (elegantly closing most every issue that they used to have), and folks are already asking for more work done on the class when it's scarcely been tested.

Let it sit for a bit, appreciate the effort, and enjoy the ride.

[Hamatreya]

Yeah, seriously guys. The class just got some MAJOR love, both in the lore and power departments (elegantly closing most every issue that they used to have), and folks are already asking for more work done on the class when it's scarcely been tested.

Let it sit for a bit, appreciate the effort, and enjoy the ride.

I agree 100%.
But, I also think DCs should be modified. ;P

[Preacher]

Lets please keep this to constructive posts as it mostly has been. Please don't post complaints about people posting their opinions. Mith has asked us to test things out and post our thoughts and so far they have in a wonderfully nice and calm manner

DC's are actually something that is being looked at so Very good point Hamatreya

Thanks everyone.

[Hamatreya]

In this bard-specific-spell-line of thought, consider the following.

Abyssals have a /tweaked/ Summon VI, which summons a /Balor Lord/! This is the equivalent of Gate Spell....heck...maybe its now even 20x better than old gate spell. This is an awesome capstone power. /And/ its unlimited.

Fey Pacters have nothing even remotely equivalent to that. Yes they can haste and hold...and once in a blue moon dominate, but as it stands now so can Weave Masters and Favored Souls, and they can do it much earlier, and are good at a lot of other things.

My contention is Fey Pacters are more or less one-two trick ponies. They are most easily haste and hold support for parties, their greatest sin being that either Bard or Favored Soul do what they do earlier and better.

I respectfully disagree with your final statement in particular. A hasted feypact warlock can pull single-target damage comparable to Isaac's Greater Missile Storm (albeit only one cast of it), while dispelling twice a round at a 50%-possible dispel power at level 30. Against another mage, this means two concentration checks a round versus an average of 67.5 damage coupled with an incredibly powerful dispel. Against a melee type, well, just remain hasted and kite them, turning invisible and using your unlimited dispels to insure they can't see you with wands of See Invisibility. Of course, don't expect to hit any player character with a hold, because your DC 29 Hold Person isn't going to work on that fighter-type with only 19 will but +12 saves on his gear, oh, and he dipped into bard for spellcraft. DCs please. < 3

[Hunter548]

If that's the kind of character you're trying to disable, then you're going to need a DC of 50+. Someone who sinks 50 spellcraft ranks and will on gear /deserves/ to have a low chance of being held.

[Hamatreya]

If that's the kind of character you're trying to disable, then you're going to need a DC of 50+. Someone who sinks 50 spellcraft ranks and will on gear /deserves/ to have a low chance of being held.

Sure. No one is asking for 50+ DCs. Even with the old warlock system, which in my opinion was too much then, it was 10 + 1/2 warlock level + feats + charisma modifier, which if you pumped charisma could get you DCs into the mid forties. No one's asking for that, as far as I know. We just want them to be /at least/ competitive, because as they are right now, they're duds.

[dragoneyeIIVX]

My point about "asking for more" is mostly made here; you're saying you can infinity-kite most builds due to speed and dispel, while still putting out solid (unavoidable) damage, and on top of it you want a round/level hold with likely success? Seems excessive.