Arelith

When I say that prision should go before kill it is because it creates a substancial role-play.

By being detained the criminal already a punishment for commiting a crime. He has an issue to solve and he will be thinking on how to explain himself. Then there is the hearing where the criminal have to defend myself and others to accuse. The entire rp surrounding this is by itself a cool part of the process. It gives people a chance to talk, to discuss, to think. Makes it gives reason to whatever sentence will come.

Also it makes thing legit. If one goes to a trial the justice have to deliver a result. Right now people ingame just assume a sentence was made and go on enforcing things that aren't actually truth. Again I could give numerous ingame examples of people enforcing things that aren't actually truth.

When there is a trial there is a sentence. You know what you have to pay and how to come back to society. Right now there is no such flexibility. You are a criminal to escorted out (and/or killed) or you are a good citizen to be kept inside the walls. There is no middle ground because there is no sentence and no criminal system.

As for the prision...you are right...its boring. Right now if i were to get in prision i would ask the sentence to be settled in at least one week time and then go rp my second character until it came. Many people here in this same post told that the sentences are forever. Think again on real life....how hard and how brutal must a crime be to have a entire life sentence.

But i think it would be great if were a place for criminals to be kept. Like criminal island. Could make simbayad that island where people are sent to rot in the desert. Stay there for X amount of time until the sentence is over...and only then you can come back. And in this criminal island ok..rules are so that anything goes.

But what i think is important is that it must pass by a justice system. Person must have a clear sentence with possibilities to solve it. Maybe pay a fine to get free. Maybe loose rights to buy stuff in the city. It the criminal act was so bad he has to go to this island there must be a time limit after which he is redeemed and can come back. How many criminals are sent to jail for one year...two year...even month and then are released.

torugor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:20 pm Also it makes thing legit. If i go to a trial the justice can say if i am a criminal or not. People ingame just assume and go on enforcing things that arent actually truth. when there is a trial there is a sentence. You know what you have to pay and how to come back to society. Right now there is no such flexibility.

This is a great point. Additionally, there are multiple IG organizations that assume law enforcing authority without even acknowlidging the authority or jurisdiction of each other.

As a result this often happens:

1) Bob does something bad near the town being presided by the Arbiters of Fairness.

2) The Arbiters of Fairness catch Bob, sentence and punish him.

Everything's cool and great RP up until this point, but here's where things often take the wrong turn:

3) Fast forward a week or two and The Rigteous Eagles catch the word of Bob's misdeeds and start chasing him out of their town completely disregarding the fact that justice has already been served by the hand of Arbiters of Fairness.

4) Fast forward again and the Avengers of Integrity come for Bob claiming that the sentences issued by the Arbiters of Fairness and The Rigteous Eagles were insufficient and that only ~they~ hold the higher authority considering the crime.

5) For the Watch!
6) Shame!
7) For the Watch!
8) Shame!

...ad nauseam.

Believe-me..seems dumb but that's exactly how things happen.

-XXX- wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:21 pm

torugor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:20 pm Also it makes thing legit. If i go to a trial the justice can say if i am a criminal or not. People ingame just assume and go on enforcing things that arent actually truth. when there is a trial there is a sentence. You know what you have to pay and how to come back to society. Right now there is no such flexibility.

This is a great point. Additionally, there are multiple IG organizations that assume law enforcing authority without even acknowlidging each other's authority or jurisdiction.

As a result this often happens:

1) Bob does something bad near the town being presided by the Arbiters of Fairness.

2) The Arbiters of Fairness catch Bob, sentence and punish him.

Everything's cool and great RP up until this point, but here's where things often take the wrong turn:

3) Fast forward a week or two and The Rigteous Eagles catch the word of Bob's misdeeds and start chasing him out of their town completely disregarding the fact that justice has already been served by the hand of Arbiters of Fairness.

4) Fast forward again and the Avengers of Integrity come for Bob claiming that the sentences issued by the Arbiters of Fairness and The Rigteous Eagles were insufficient and that only ~they~ hold the higher authority considering the crime.

5) For the Watch!
6) Shame!
7) For the Watch!
8) Shame!

...ad nauseam.

This may not be a popular opinion, but to throw a more positive light on Arelith dynamics as they stand, I just want to remind everyone that "the hallmark of an effective compromise is when no one walks away happy." No, we will not ever find a solution that balances all the gameplay preferences, RP themes, and what every player thinks is "fair," because all of that is subjective to each individual.

I agree that a discussion on how to improve things further is useful, as nothing is ever perfect and it's always good to innovate and make changes to better serve the community, but the mood of "this set up is completely fair/unfair and perfect/crap," toward both the status quo of settlement dynamics, and the concerns of those challenging the status quo, is not a productive conversation.

Players for evil people: Your concerns are heard, and the gang-up inquisition mentality is a problem that should be reduced, but you can't expect to flaunt undead and fiends in front of neutral/good people without pushback. You are actively trampling on their RP as well, if you think they should just be courteous and accepting of that.

Players for good people: Remember that the opposition is playing the role of an evil person, they are not actually an IRL villain. Try to be less hamfisted, especially vs. targets that are alone or low level. You don't need to send fifteen inquisitors to swat one necromancer you heard about that is six instances out into the wilderness. You don't need to be so quick to exile/pariah people you heard a rumor about doing sketchy stuff, and you certainly don't need to put a lot of energy into making sure all the other settlements also believe that person has an abysmal reputation, unless they actually are caught doing something really egregious like slaving, murder, kidnapping, or otherwise high-profile crimes that have earned a high profile response.

This is something i think should be aimed for in the server...a compromisse on both sides.
What actions can be made to make people not reading to this forum to move towards this vision?

Bunnysmack wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 5:20 pm This may not be a popular opinion, but to throw a more positive light on Arelith dynamics as they stand, I just want to remind everyone that "the hallmark of an effective compromise is when no one walks away happy." No, we will not ever find a solution that balances all the gameplay preferences, RP themes, and what every player thinks is "fair," because all of that is subjective to each individual.

I agree that a discussion on how to improve things further is useful, as nothing is ever perfect and it's always good to innovate and make changes to better serve the community, but the mood of "this set up is completely fair/unfair and perfect/crap," toward both the status quo of settlement dynamics, and the concerns of those challenging the status quo, is not a productive conversation.

Players for evil people: Your concerns are heard, and the gang-up inquisition mentality is a problem that should be reduced, but you can't expect to flaunt undead and fiends in front of neutral/good people without pushback. You are actively trampling on their RP as well, if you think they should just be courteous and accepting of that.

Players for good people: Remember that the opposition is playing the role of an evil person, they are not actually an IRL villain. Try to be less hamfisted, especially vs. targets that are alone or low level. You don't need to send fifteen inquisitors to swat one necromancer you heard about that is six instances out into the wilderness. You don't need to be so quick to exile/pariah people you heard a rumor about doing sketchy stuff, and you certainly don't need to put a lot of energy into making sure all the other settlements also believe that person has an abysmal reputation, unless they actually are caught doing something really egregious like slaving, murder, kidnapping, or otherwise high-profile crimes that have earned a high profile response.

-XXX- wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 4:21 pm

torugor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 3:20 pm Also it makes thing legit. If i go to a trial the justice can say if i am a criminal or not. People ingame just assume and go on enforcing things that arent actually truth. when there is a trial there is a sentence. You know what you have to pay and how to come back to society. Right now there is no such flexibility.

This is a great point. Additionally, there are multiple IG organizations that assume law enforcing authority without even acknowlidging the authority or jurisdiction of each other.

As a result this often happens:

1) Bob does something bad near the town being presided by the Arbiters of Fairness.

2) The Arbiters of Fairness catch Bob, sentence and punish him.

Everything's cool and great RP up until this point, but here's where things often take the wrong turn:

3) Fast forward a week or two and The Rigteous Eagles catch the word of Bob's misdeeds and start chasing him out of their town completely disregarding the fact that justice has already been served by the hand of Arbiters of Fairness.

4) Fast forward again and the Avengers of Integrity come for Bob claiming that the sentences issued by the Arbiters of Fairness and The Rigteous Eagles were insufficient and that only ~they~ hold the higher authority considering the crime.

5) For the Watch!
6) Shame!
7) For the Watch!
8) Shame!

...ad nauseam.

This assumes a lot of things that are societal constructions in the real world, but have no bearing in Arelith.

1. jurisdiction
2. respect of sovereignty
3. no such thing as "extra-judicial actors"
4. judgment only comes from the state/settlement

etc.

I totally agree with you. But it's fairy tale and really offers no meaningful addition to the conversation.

If a Bendirian kills a paladin in Minmir, and the paladin's friend kills the Bendirian, Bendir still exiles the friend, faces no punishment for killing the paladin, and Minmir has the moral authority of a wet rag.

There's a lot of OOC/IC sentiment around this idea of territoriality, but it functionally does not, has not, ever existed. It'd be like pushing a boulder up a mountain to countervail common server culture.

If Cordor exiles a necromancer because the necromancer did something wrong, 99% of the server is not going to see it as "a necromancer was punished, rejoice!", they're going to see it as, "THIS GUY IS EVIL. HUNT HIM DOWN."

A lot of the problems of Arelith are squarely the fault of law-abiding/good-aligned parties. There's a lot of insidious ideas of how conflict should be handled.

edit: There's a lot of inflated self-worth that "only ME can punish them", "that OTHER group doesn't know what is RIGHT", "I am the ONLY source of judgment", "are you kidding? They don't know what REPRIMAND is."

A rare thing to see on Arelith is a PC, "oh, yeah, they got it. let's move on."

Seven Sons of Sin wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 6:05 pm ems of Arelith are squarely the fault of law-abiding/good-aligned parties. There's a lot of insidious ideas of how conflict should be handled.

edit: There's a lot of inflated self-worth that "only ME can punish them", "that OTHER group doesn't know what is RIGHT", "I am the ONLY source of judgment", "are you kidding? They don't know what REPRIMAND is."

A rare thing to see on Arelith is a PC, "oh, yeah, they got it. let's move on."

That's kind of a problem with players handling all aspects of law enforcement. If you're a guard then everyone's a suspect, everyone acting suspicious is up to something, if someone's a known criminal they need to be stopped before they they can commit a crime again (it's not their job to give them second chances.) There's nothing a guard hates more than someone getting one over on them by sneaking around or succeeding with a disguise. If they don't do these things they feel like they're not RPing correctly.

Couple this with how boring and slow moving this game can be-- guards are just looking for someone to bust, that's what they live for-- and you see how difficult it can be to pull off shady RP, and when I say shady RP I don't mean warlocks walking around with demons in tow, I mean any criminal activity or being outspoken about worshipping an "evil" god or other things that shouldn't get you outright banished and murdered. I'm not against law enforcement RP at all mind you, and again not saying evil should be allowed to tote undead in Cordor, but I do wish the law enforcement was toned down though I don't see that ever coming from the players alone.

Did you ever see minority report?
Guards arent supposed to put people in jail BEFORE they commit a crime. They are supposed to be there to put people in jail AFTER they commit a crime. A guard can investigate crimes after it happens...he may even talk with someone that is a criminal to move along and be there to make it harder for a crime to happen...his mere presence exists as a threat for a criminal to think twice before doing a crime. But a guard should NOT act arrest or even less kill before crime is done.

A guard that jails people before commiting a crime is by definition vigilante.
So i respect your right to have a diverging opinion ...but on my opinion....no...guards who arrest and kill BEFORE a crime takes place are not doing their duty right...nor rping correctly by the definition of it.
And if they go a step further and murder someone just because they MIGHT commit a crime...then the guard is a murderer by the definition of it.

Gouge Away wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:26 pm That's kind of a problem with players handling all aspects of law enforcement. If you're a guard then everyone's a suspect, everyone acting suspicious is up to something, if someone's a known criminal they need to be stopped before they they can commit a crime again (it's not their job to give them second chances.) There's nothing a guard hates more than someone getting one over on them by sneaking around or succeeding with a disguise. If they don't do these things they feel like they're not RPing correctly.

Well, you're missing the point if you think I'm endorsing that.

I'm saying that's where the RP goes with guard characters. That's also what tends to happen IRL which is why we have oversight, limit their powers and separate justice systems in more civilized societies. I don't want to go too far down the road of comparing what happens in a silly video game with the very real struggles happening in the real world however for obvious reasons.

Not that Judge Dredd RP isn't valid too (and fun!) but I think PC guards who don't intend to be overzealous in enforcement still go there for the reasons I said above. It's the path we're wired for and you see that pattern happen repeatedly IG.

torugor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:59 pm Did you ever see minority report?

Had it on a video tape.

torugor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:59 pm A guard that jails people before commiting a crime is by definition vigilante.
So i respect your right to have a diverging opinion ...but on my opinion....no...guards who arrest and kill BEFORE a crime takes place are not doing their duty right...nor rping correctly by the definition of it.
And if they go a step further and murder someone just because they MIGHT commit a crime...then the guard is a murderer by the definition of it.

Some guards are corrupt. Some guards are murderers. There's nothing wrong with RPing a guard like that. If anything, it shakes the settlement from within and I wish more people have the Pufferfish to play guards who accept bribery (because, ya know, they dont technically need to, as they have infinite gold by being a part of a settlement's faction and all the benefits that come with it, like free gear and runes etc) and jail people for little to no reason. I'm not saying no one does that but its much easier to give in to comfort once you are established in a faction.

I applaud a chaotic or evil guard ingame that accepts money to look away from a crime cause it is a good rp. But that was NOT what i meant with my reply back there.
What I meant is if you are a LAWFUL Good...lawful neutral...or just want to be a good guard. And you kill or arrest or impose your power to citizens before they commit crime...just out of suspicion. it does not look like a good rp for me.
Were i rping his chief...were i a lawful character...i would reprimend or expell said guard from the force.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:15 pm Some guards are corrupt. Some guards are murderers. There's nothing wrong with RPing a guard like that. If anything, it shakes the settlement from within and I wish more people have the Pufferfish to play guards who accept bribery (because, ya know, they dont technically need to, as they have infinite gold by being a part of a settlement's faction and all the benefits that come with it, like free gear and runes etc) and jail people for little to no reason. I'm not saying no one does that but its much easier to give in to comfort once you are established in a faction.

torugor wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:33 pm I applaud a chaotic or evil guard ingame that accepts money to look away from a crime cause it is a good rp. But that was NOT what i meant with my reply back there.
What I meant is if you are a LAWFUL Good...lawful neutral...or just want to be a good guard. And you kill or arrest or impose your power to citizens before they commit crime...just out of suspicion. it does not look like a good rp for me.
Were i rping his chief...were i a lawful character...i would reprimend or expell said guard from the force.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:15 pm Some guards are corrupt. Some guards are murderers. There's nothing wrong with RPing a guard like that. If anything, it shakes the settlement from within and I wish more people have the Pufferfish to play guards who accept bribery (because, ya know, they dont technically need to, as they have infinite gold by being a part of a settlement's faction and all the benefits that come with it, like free gear and runes etc) and jail people for little to no reason. I'm not saying no one does that but its much easier to give in to comfort once you are established in a faction.

Oh! well, thanks for the clarification. Questioning other player's RP of their alignment is...eh.. you never really know their alignment.. I guess if it's a known paladin, doing evil stuff - report it. Otherwise, the problem isnt how people RP their alignment, I think.

its ok man i am not here to question other player's rp even cause i cannot see their aligment
i am just saying that a guard accepting bribe or enforcing himself to arrest people before they commit crime is to me a chaotic or might be even an evil action. Its not what we expect from guards. Chaotic and evil guards exists? hell yeah!!! makes a great rp. But if someone is trying to rp a lawful good guard and goes that route i would think he is not doing a good job on his aligment rp. at least not on my opinion.

AstralUniverse wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 8:39 pm Oh! well, thanks for the clarification. Questioning other player's RP of their alignment is...eh.. you never really know their alignment.. I guess if it's a known paladin, doing evil stuff - report it. Otherwise, the problem isnt how people RP their alignment, I think.

1, The exile/pariah system (with the whole resource system)- I think citizens should get buffs within the district in the rate of the resource spending to show the support and exiled-pariahs
(1b) Also i think DMs should have the power (as Hub master) to evict player property not other players, after players presented the details of the conflict.

2, Also raids, conflict in a major scale i think need a DM supervision more than it is now, as a absolute judge in the end resolution of the conflict.

3, the stagnation is purely can be seen in Andunor too... So everyone is nice to everyone in an underdark trade city. Band up when surfacers come, or making raids to surface but there are no huge goals to reach.

In summary i would like to see more DM / Story driven events, than player made stories mostly weightless.

I shortened this quote because I did want to address these points a bit and not have them forgotten.

1. At present our goal with any exile/pariah is not to incentivize this process. So buffing a city for utilizing it would go against that idea. It's a price for denying someone access to a city.

1b. We do have this power in all stretches of Arelith, but this is something that is done when either (a) A player is willfully choosing to avoid eviction in a jurisdiction by ooc means and has avoided any and all forms of warning and contact done by both government and the DM Team, or (b) player is outside of any jurisdiction and violating the monster policy, or isn't actively roleplaying in a contributing way known commonly as quarter logging. Again the DM Team will still try to reach out to people to encourage them to move of their own accord where able.
Concerns of the above two should be submitted to the DM Team as a report to be addressed.

2. We supervise all announced events, and even the ones our players like to spring on us. We do need advance notice or a full on raid against NPCs will result in a rulebreak. Any PVP close to NPCs should at least ping us in advance where able. Typically if there is massive PVP, we are there even if you do not see/hear us.

3. Stagnation can happen whenever a faction or set of factions does band together to hold a status quo, but from Andunor to Cordor leadership and attitudes can and do shift. But sadly what often feels like the case is that people who don't have their ideas accepted on the first pass give up and feel resentment about it. And I (personal individual injection) have empathy on both sides of the situations as these.

- The leader likely feels a lot of OOC pressure as is almost synonymous with leading either part or an entire city/settlement. A lot of prior work and investment has resulted in someone establishing and leading things, and then someone new and energetic comes along to shift things towards their own ambitions and ideas, which might be fun, but change can be threatening to many.
- In turn the person looking to shift things will likely feel shut out, that this idea they've been carving out for hours or days is just completely ignored. They might lash out OOC as well as they may feel that their only option. This can even lead to the character being shelved or rolled off in favor of trying to 'fit in' somewhere else. And that then sews resentment going forward.

For the above situation, I recommend patience and open mindedness. As those moments can be inopportune but don't have to be all or nothing. Starting a bit smaller and building up can help break the ice a bit more and establish more story towards a joint, settlement investment and venture. Perhaps even postponing and trying later on might be another idea as things do shift even if it takes some time.

We are always looking to continue telling our stories, and perhaps if you'd like to help run some of your own you might consider applying to become a DM when the opportunity opens up again.

I read maybe the first 3 pages of this thread and the last one. From what I read, despite people saying that they are not trying to tell other people how to RP, that seems to be what you are effectively saying by demanding that the surface needs to have more conflict.

There are a some things that have stuck out to me over the years here, and on pretty much every other server I have played on.

1. There is little to no meaningful consequence for failure that does not result in essentially shelving or rolling a character. Now, that being said, the slave system here is actually, IMO, a really good way of doing this. Your characters do not become un-playable, but you are 'trapped' for a time and have to do some hard work to 'break free'. The main problem here is that the only counter to this is exile. Let me explain. If I am a paladin and I go to the underdark to wage my moral war on them, well.. if I fail they can make me a slave and spend plenty of time humiliating me. Now, flip that around. If I am Dr. Evil Doombringer and I go to Bendir Dale to slay a thousand hin and bring my unholy terror to them and I fail... what can they do? They can kill me and I do it again 24 hours later, or they can put me in jail and now have to baby sit me while I am there for up to 24 hours, or they can pariah/exile me. That's it. So, essentially I can to it all again tomorrow and they can do nothing about it. This is why such a large group of people has worked very hard for a long time to unite against Dr. Doombringer and all his friends. The only way they can apply meaningful justice to them is to essentially exterminate them every 24 hours and/or utterly ban them from any place they might want to play.

2. There is nothing you can do to affect settlements. Again, unlike most other places, Arelith does have a lot of good things in place. Election systems where you can theoretically challenge the system in place, take it over, and change it. The resource systems that force settlements to work to maintain it, or else get booted. However, even this is not flawless. There honestly is not enough drain on resources to make this a problem unless someone steals/burns/destroys a bunch. It is exceedingly hard to get in and challenge the current status quo in a settlement in order to change it and voting comes up so rapidly that even if you sneak in and then reveal your diabolical plan, well you can get voted out in the next month or two really. No biggie, they can wait you out.

3. Number two sorta leads directly into this last point. There are no places or things to fight over that are important. There is no resource heavy area that you can fight to control and once you gain control of it reap the benefits of it. There is nothing you can attack to 'steal' from a place that might make that place struggle with out it. The only thing you can do is attack that place. For example, there is no 'iron mine' that Cordor has controlled for the past 5 years giving it wealth and an easy life that you can attack and possibly take over thus sending Cordor into difficult times. Really if you want to affect Cordor by some military like means the only way to do this is by assaulting Cordor directly. This, IMO, becomes very problematic, and is the root cause of what started this thread.

You see, there are a lot of people who want to play as a part of the server but do not want to be a combat god. They want to play a merchant who is scared of the dark, or a craftsman who cant defeat an army of giants, or even a big grisly bear. So, when team "bad guys" assaults a settlement they are really assaulting one of the very few places that these people can play at all. You are bringing the kind of game play that a lot of players don't want to be involved in to one of the few places where they can play the way they want to play. If I want to play a weak lore master who knows all sorts of history, but is not a powerful wizard then I am going to play that in a settlement. When you attack that place, essentially I cant play. Especially if you attack it when I am on and I die. Technically I need to either go into the wilds (where I am no good) or log. I cant be in the area where I was PvP'd.

Here is what all this looks like from my perspective. I generally stink at PvP. I don't like it much at all. I played in Guldorand for more than 2 years where it was assaulted and over run by any number of players on a weekly if not daily basis. Cyrisist, Banites, Drow, Pirates, Elven Zealots. You name it, I've pretty much had to deal with them constantly in my face. After years of playing we are actually now at a point where we have strong alliances and allies we can call on when we need help. If this happens again, we'll call them and finally be able actually stop you from wiping us out that day. What is my go to punishment for when this happens? I Exile you. I don't want you in my face, and there is nothing else I can do to deter you from being in my face. I don't want your constant PvP. It might be fun for you, but it freaking sucks for me. The kind of conflict I enjoy is more nuanced. Subtle political maneuvers and such, social drama, DM events.

Now, don't take that to mean I want you all to leave the server. I don't. I really do appreciate the RP that "team bad" can bring, but honestly it has almost always lead to far too much PvP for my taste. So, after you get a couple punches in, you can expect the exile hammer.

Lately, I've actually taken to offering 'hard labor' as an alternative to exile, or as a means to remove exile. You get caught, go collect 500 pieces of granite or wood to donate to the town and we'll consider your punishment paid. I haven't had a taker on this yet. Nope, every one of them so far has decided they'll just go do their daily PvP somewhere else, or just shelve the character.

So, to wrap this up. . . honestly from my perspective I feel like I finally have a little bit of the upper hand in my war for peace and prosperity and now a bunch of you think it's no fun anymore because the tables have finally turned. Maybe that's not the complete truth, but, it sorta sounds a bit like that.

msheeler wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:02 pm Lately, I've actually taken to offering 'hard labor' as an alternative to exile, or as a means to remove exile. You get caught, go collect 500 pieces of granite or wood to donate to the town and we'll consider your punishment paid. I haven't had a taker on this yet. Nope, every one of them so far has decided they'll just go do their daily PvP somewhere else, or just shelve the character.

I read your post, it is insightful.

But there is good reason why no single character/player has taken up your offer:

It's awful.

This is a kind of busy-work, mind-numbing, and "task-oriented" style of play that reduces all fun for a character to some kind of onerous task.

I understand how it can initially sound appealing - "hey! think of the roleplay they can have along the way." "maybe they can start a new resource-collection guild!" "maybe they can hire people to help them!" "maybe they can discover X or Y when they're out mining granite for the 6th time."

But to be frank, that's not what it sounds like to people. It's largely un-fun.

Creating meaningful punishment is really hard, and actually requires a lot of dialogue between players. Some players can be really open to seemingly harsher punishments but with much more roleplay potential if you just ask. Others, just want to be exiled. There's no right way to do it.

edit: You should also avoid personal pronouns when talking about current narrative - "my peace", "not your style of play", etc. It makes you sound like you've blurred the lines a lot between IC/OOC and comes off as super problematic.

There is no me/my you/yours in Arelith. It's impossible to tell a story that way.

You also can't deflect narrative consequence by playing a "weak loremaster" and "not wanting to PvP." Scurvy Cur made a great post about that awhile back - about how playing on a server and in setting with cosmic forces of good, evil, law, chaos, demons, angels, paladins, Banites, extreme fanatics, drow, historical baggage, etc. will necessitate, at some point, violence.

edit again: I'll get on my soap box once again. If you play Arelith without Discord for awhile, it's a totally different experience, and one I actively encourage.

Probably the difference between RPing out a chain gang that can be an inclusive RP environment versus going solo to do x.

Then again I'm of the minority opinion that a prisoner collar could be used with the idea that they're on parole and set to do work together, scheduled RP events run by a warden PC and could spawn RP prison style breaks etc. Sadly I suspect it would probably be used for tea and crumpets time moreso than that or people would rail against it due to modern morality concerns.

I gotta agree. "Bring 500 granite" is busywork wasting my RL time. That could easily take hours, more if on a low strength character. Yeah there's the possibility of hiring help or something but most likely I'd have to be grinding silently and solo and feeling punished as a player, not as a character. I'd be resentful and just take the exile too, and probably have a grudge OOC, if we're allowed to admit to those.

Seems like there's so many things you could do to "punish" a character IG in a way that's interactive. A chain gang manned by a guard, making them do menial labor in public view near a gathering place so at least they could interact with passerby, put them in stockades, make them a pack mule on guard patrols... That kind of thing seems so much better than "go spend 3-6 hours wordlessly trudging back and forth from a granite node."

Those suggestions would also make the punished character's player feel like you actually do want them around and do want the character to repent and join the fold, which the granite mission wouldn't-- that just speaks of "go away, we don't like you" to me.

Point taken about the use of personal pronouns. To be clear those were not specific you's meant to point the finger at a particular person.

To clarify a little bit on the punishments, I think last time I asked for 100 units of stone, which is something between 10 and 20 nodes of a resource. There are a few places I can go as a 10 strength character and with the use of a single portal lens, come back with 40 units of stone in under and hour. Compared to the punishments dealt out to players asked to take a slave collar that is an absolute gift. At worst it might have involved a single session of play. At best, with a high str character they could have completed it in an hour with time for RP.

I also agree with you that at some point everyone will come across violence of some sort. The game is literally based on it. What I don't expect is for those who do not want that sort of player conflict (PvP) to be the main part of their character's story to have to be subjected to it on a regular basis (daily / weekly).

I don't mind getting my rear end handed to me on the occasional basis. Sometimes it is the perfect resolution to developed RP. I've been happy to be taken prisoner, and not complained when I was corpse bashed for being a total IC jerk. I just don't want this to be the normal expected resolution to every 'good guy / bad guy' interaction, which at times it has been that.

Lastly, I also want to point out that, while an acceptable type of conflict, this is only one small type of conflict in a vast universe of conflict. It's good to see all of them used.

Read all your post man. Really insighful.
I know how you feel i also suck on pvp. Cant make a good build and most of all i focus on rp. But i like conflict rp more than the non-risk rp.

I think there should be space for all. While i like to see pvp i dont think it should ever be the primary goal of any server...and could not be the main way to solve conflict.

If it serves for anything i can tell you my character would probably accept your task to collect stuff for your settlement if it meant to not enter in pvp. But damn 500 is so much i would probably negociate =P

msheeler wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:02 pm I read maybe the first 3 pages of this thread and the last one. From what I read, despite people saying that....

If 500 units of marble is too much then I need to apologize to WillDig...

@msheeler

I read your post and it very good and I liked reading about this angle of things.

I also played with you in Guldorand for like 6 months on and we were involved in a lot of stuff together. I think I agree with most of what you said in points 1,2 and 3. It sounds a lot like something Mr. Rieper said a long time ago that still echoes for me.

However, I read this...

msheeler wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:02 pm You see, there are a lot of people who want to play as a part of the server but do not want to be a combat god. They want to play a merchant who is scared of the dark, or a craftsman who cant defeat an army of giants, or even a big grisly bear. So, when team "bad guys" assaults a settlement they are really assaulting one of the very few places that these people can play at all. You are bringing the kind of game play that a lot of players don't want to be involved in to one of the few places where they can play the way they want to play. If I want to play a weak lore master who knows all sorts of history, but is not a powerful wizard then I am going to play that in a settlement. When you attack that place, essentially I cant play. Especially if you attack it when I am on and I die. Technically I need to either go into the wilds (where I am no good) or log. I cant be in the area where I was PvP'd.

These people need to accept that they are weak in a dangerous world. No one said being a commoner is easy and Sims-lite. hypothetically, if I decide to play a commoner I will have to take into account that I wont have much agency on the outcome of violent conflict. It's just the way the game works. Your argument there makes it sound like pvp is not tied to this world and that it has no weight on the story, which to me is a sad thought. It is not impossible, even for a veteran player that has no head for numbers even after many years here, to get better at the mechanical aspect of this game. Its a part of the game and a part of the RP, for better or worse.

AstralUniverse wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 8:42 am @msheeler

I read your post and it very good and I liked reading about this angle of things.

I also played with you in Guldorand for like 6 months on and we were involved in a lot of stuff together. I think I agree with most of what you said in points 1,2 and 3. It sounds a lot like something Mr. Rieper said a long time ago that still echoes for me.

However, I read this...

msheeler wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:02 pm You see, there are a lot of people who want to play as a part of the server but do not want to be a combat god. They want to play a merchant who is scared of the dark, or a craftsman who cant defeat an army of giants, or even a big grisly bear. So, when team "bad guys" assaults a settlement they are really assaulting one of the very few places that these people can play at all. You are bringing the kind of game play that a lot of players don't want to be involved in to one of the few places where they can play the way they want to play. If I want to play a weak lore master who knows all sorts of history, but is not a powerful wizard then I am going to play that in a settlement. When you attack that place, essentially I cant play. Especially if you attack it when I am on and I die. Technically I need to either go into the wilds (where I am no good) or log. I cant be in the area where I was PvP'd.

These people need to accept that they are weak in a dangerous world. No one said being a commoner is easy and Sims-lite. hypothetically, if I decide to play a commoner I will have to take into account that I wont have much agency on the outcome of violent conflict. It's just the way the game works. Your argument there makes it sound like pvp is not tied to this world and that it has no weight on the story, which to me is a sad thought. It is not impossible, even for a veteran player that has no head for numbers even after many years here, to get better at the mechanical aspect of this game. Its a part of the game and a part of the RP, for better or worse.

Just wanted to chime in here and say that I agree with Astral for the most part. You wrote what I have been trying to say for 4 years now (you can even read it in my posts earlier in the thread) in a much easier read then I am capable of, because I tend to get on a rant. But pvp has to be part of it. I just wish it wasn't the end all be all of a fight, because if dms took not only npc armies and pc pvp but planning, defenses, ect, into account on who wins and looses players who suck at pvp could still feel involved in these big fights. But yeah, the "everything returns back to the status quo no matter what happens" that you touched on in point 2 and 3 is why I don't even bother trying to shake things up even though its my favorite type of character to play.

Also, I can't believe this thread is still getting posts. I wish it was a bit more focused, because there is a lot of good stuff in here that may have gotten lost in the shuffle, but a lot of what I have read makes me feel less alone when it comes to how I view Arelith

Want to concentrate on this quote for a suggestion on death system based on lore. You created the fulgor plane for kelemvor for people when they die. Why not go further on this idea?

Forgotten realms goes for a lot of planes...one for each alignment. What if we make 2 of them
One for good characters in general who want to chat and role-play peaceful interactions
Other for evil guys. The hells where daemons and devils are fighting constantly.

And when you die you get to choose the fulgor plan or get to the plane of your alingment. Then you can stay there for as long as you want.

For good players who are concerned they died and cant go back to the city...they can all stay in Elysium 24hs role-playing heaven with no pvp. Some might even consider not returning and making life in Elysium. There could be a heaven city with heavenly things to see. And nothing bad will ever happen there. And a npc archor is there to return them to arelith whenever they want.

On the Nine Hells on the other side....a big field full of devils and daemons fighting each other. Players can engage in pvp constantly and never really die. They fall...get up and continue to battle. And to leave they must go to the other side of the war and talk with a deamon who will transport them back to arelith as a reward to have slaughtering so many in the war.

Dont think of it as a penalty, think of it as a mini-game caused by death that allows you to continue your favorite rp or pvp for an unlimited amount of time while the primal plane where arelith is continue their stories as if you were dead and with no way to know if your soul will return.

msheeler wrote: Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:02 pm You see, there are a lot of people who want to play as a part of the server but do not want to be a combat god. They want to play a merchant who is scared of the dark, or a craftsman who cant defeat an army of giants, or even a big grisly bear. So, when team "bad guys" assaults a settlement they are really assaulting one of the very few places that these people can play at all. You are bringing the kind of game play that a lot of players don't want to be involved in to one of the few places where they can play the way they want to play. If I want to play a weak lore master who knows all sorts of history, but is not a powerful wizard then I am going to play that in a settlement. When you attack that place, essentially I cant play. Especially if you attack it when I am on and I die. Technically I need to either go into the wilds (where I am no good) or log. I cant be in the area where I was PvP'd.

Cybren wrote: Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:05 am If 500 units of marble is too much then I need to apologize to WillDig...

Yes. Yes, you do.


Grinding for resources is a boring chore.

People don't want to do boring things.

The settlement system isn't great and the resource system kind of sucks and can be mostly ignored by every city that isn't Cordor.

When my characters are in charge of punishing other characters, I tend to go less towards making them do mindless grinding chores and more towards acts of contrition or public humiliation that require them to actually interact with other people.

And if they don't want to actually interact with other people, well, there's always just killbashing them and calling it a day, because you can't create some sort of narrative or scene with someone who has no interest in actually creating some sort of narrative, and I've got better things to do with my time than driving my face into a brick wall.