Arelith - Hak Server

[Orian_666]

Just gonna put it out there, if you need testers or anything like that i'll put my name in the pot, feel free to send me a message when the time comes if that's going to be a thing.

[Tourmaline]

If you can take a screenshot, crop it in paint, and upload it on the forums, you can put a .hak in NWN. As for old machines/OSes, exactly how old are we expecting people's computer's to be? Windows 7 is 8 years old, and requires you to play with NWN to get it to work properly. Vista, from what I recall of two laptops ago, was also a pain in the Snuggybear as far as NWN was concerned. Do we actually think that any portion of the playerbase is running arelith on an OS from 15 years ago? Or Hardware from circa the time NWN was originally released?

There are some (like, ahem, me) running the GOG version of NWN in modern Mac OS through something like Parallels or Wine. Pretty sure it's possible to add haks but it's not something I want to bother with until necessary since it's working fine at the moment. I don't know if it will be possible to run a Windows launcher as discussed elsewhere, so hopefully any additional files could be downloaded ala carte.

[Mithreas]

I ran a hak server for a couple of years pre-Arelith. I also built from scratch my own server using haks, and contributed to a couple of other projects using haks. So I'd rate myself as very familiar with both what can be done, and the practicalities of working this on the server side. As such, my thoughts and feelings on the matter...

1. Learning and using haks as a tool/technique. This is often difficult for new builders to get familiar with, though through the Arelith build system we've "trained" our build team in most of the key concepts they need to work effectively with haks.

2. Content quality. There's a lot of really great custom content out there, and there's also a lot of really bad, and (worse) buggy content. Curating a set of custom content and testing/validating that it all works as expected is not a quick process, and takes a lot of work.

3. Ongoing workload. Don't underestimate the cost of maintaining/changing haks. With the current size of dev team, it's probably manageable - but it's up to the team whether they want to take on the significant extra work of managing hakpaks.

4. Accessibility. While many of our players have great internet connections and haks are only a minor annoyance, that's certainly not true for all of us. My crappy Australian residential internet would require me to spend all night downloading any updated haks (& if a change happened while I was travelling, the same would be true of typical crappy hotel internet). A poster above mentioned players using mobile data. Haks that update regularly are therefore a big obstacle to accessibility. A set of haks (& tlk file) that was developed and tested once, and then not changed, would probably be the right compromise here - maybe an annual update with a week or two's notice before the new version goes live (which would also limit the hak maintenance work required).

So if the team were to put the effort in to get the right set of content integrated and tested, and if we commit to very infrequent changes to that content (ideally none at all), then I can see this working. But regular hak updates are something I would be very strongly against.

[Mr_Rieper]

As one of the players in Guldorand, I'm looking forward to this, and I think I speak for most of the Guldorand crowd in saying that they are too. Senpai noticed us.

New tilesets can expand on what kinds of RP are possible, other haks can repair and fix parts of the game that don't work properly. The change may not be easy, but it will be positive.

I'm going to echo what Hunter said though. For there to be fixes to the base game, like adding in classes or fixing old ones (purple dragon knight, anyone?), the whole server needs to be enabled for at least some of the haks. Maybe just the small ones.

My only request is to please stay away from CEP, though I doubt this needs to be said. CEP is like eating a giant birthday cake with thick frosting, only to find that somebody mixed dog poop into the batter. The whole thing is just a mess, and if any of the assets are useful, they need to be stripped from the chaff. No lightsabers for Arelith.

[yellowcateyes]

a playerbase who feel that their concerns are listened to.

If this does indeed help, then there have been a number of concerns voiced by players that could be addressed directly by the staff. Many of these concerns are tied into a basic question.

What exactly is the plan with the economy?

What problems and shortcomings of old systems are the new systems trying to accomplish? Was gearing too easy? Was the magic level too high? Was there too much gold in the system? Was gearing too reliant on enchanting?

What is the end-game? What will the purpose of crafting and enchanting be? How are they supposed to interact with the new loot systems? Is crafting/enchanting meant to be surpassed and bypassed by loot farming?

Currently, the changes have produced a number of mixed signals:

The influx of new magical items in the loot matrix versus the increase in requirements and rarity of end-game crafted gear.

Giving rewards for rolling characters with valuables versus the irreplaceable rarity of legacy greensteel and keen-enchanted masterly damask, ensuring that some items will be passed on instead of rolled.

Discussions on moving away from a UMD-dominated meta, versus changes that make mundane gearing more difficult. Casters, who can make do with double-stat gear all the way to the end game, are heavily favored by the new loot matrix and the scarcity of mithril and adamantine.

Gaps in available +2 stat gearing finally addressed, but as loot drops rather than new recipes. Again, crafting issues feel like an afterthought.

If there was some degree of clarity regarding the overall direction of recent changes, then there'd likely be less skepticism about whether these old and persistent issues are going to be addressed.

[Skibbles]

I did some area development for a server that was going to use HAKs and it was an incredibly powerful creative tool.

Not only that, but my experience is that HAK-using servers are far more stable and responsive than the ones using lots of scripts and workarounds.

[One Two Three Five]

I did some area development for a server that was going to use HAKs and it was an incredibly powerful creative tool.

Not only that, but my experience is that HAK-using servers are far more stable and responsive than the ones using lots of scripts and workarounds.

I've had similar experiences. And if it makes any of you feel better, the 'needing to download things constantly' of haks is really, vastly, overestimated. Once the hak and tlk are stable (often with their own exe that also functions as an NWN shortcut!) they really, really don't update much. Most of it's client side. When I was debugging stuff for a server years ago, fixing feats/classes/some spells had more to do with scripting errors and there was no hak updates involved.

Speaking of how often haks are updated, I went and glanced at a few servers:
Amia's last hak update appears to have been in 2015
Cormyr and the Dalelands says 2010
Aenea, a favorite of mine, had a 3 year gap between hak updates
The only prominent server I found running constant new updates was, well, sinfar. But I think they make their own models and stuff at this point, rather than pull from the vault/the cep.

Given how finnicky this 15 year old game is (and how painfully obvious it's a 15 year old game, both from a player and dev side, in my experience) in both running and set up, I think most people here are clever enough to get a few files in a few folders, and I think the dev team is good enough at what they do to make that as easy as possible. Also anything that makes it a little bit less like a 15 year old game and a little more like something that's easy fir this team to modify and work with is a net positive to me.

[Irongron]

If this does indeed help, then there have been a number of concerns voiced by players that could be addressed directly by the staff. Many of these concerns are tied into a basic question.

What exactly is the plan with the economy?

What problems and shortcomings of old systems are the new systems trying to accomplish? Was gearing too easy? Was the magic level too high? Was there too much gold in the system? Was gearing too reliant on enchanting?

What is the end-game? What will the purpose of crafting and enchanting be? How are they supposed to interact with the new loot systems? Is crafting/enchanting meant to be surpassed and bypassed by loot farming?

Currently, the changes have produced a number of mixed signals:

The influx of new magical items in the loot matrix versus the increase in requirements and rarity of end-game crafted gear.

Giving rewards for rolling characters with valuables versus the irreplaceable rarity of legacy greensteel and keen-enchanted masterly damask, ensuring that some items will be passed on instead of rolled.

Discussions on moving away from a UMD-dominated meta, versus changes that make mundane gearing more difficult. Casters, who can make do with double-stat gear all the way to the end game, are heavily favored by the new loot matrix and the scarcity of mithril and adamantine.

Gaps in available +2 stat gearing finally addressed, but as loot drops rather than new recipes. Again, crafting issues feel like an afterthought.

If there was some degree of clarity regarding the overall direction of recent changes, then there'd likely be less skepticism about whether these old and persistent issues are going to be addressed.

There is most definitely a plan with the economy, and I'm not being taciturn due to anything other than avoiding a rush on certain commodities/actions. Had I said that gold drop were going to be reduced, people would have grabbed all that they could? Appraise change? We'd have seen a fortnight of appraise farming. Level Restriction/Scarcity? Vast stockpiles would have been built up.

That period of updates is not over, and once it is I'll be in a better position to explain the changes, and what I hope they mean.

I can say a couple of things though, first, in regard to the 'overall reason' for this. Gold was crazily high, especially for epics. Lower levels were shut out of the market, with no motivation for epics craft/sell to new players outside of patronage, and any property/ship/guild worth having changing hands for millions at a time. In the DM Client I saw most parties literally not bothering to loot the bodies of the fallen/gather resources/empty chests, because all of that was essentially worthless to them once they reached a certain level.

More comes down to gold than we might first realise, as it is/was with healing kits. Success really depends in how many you carry/use - and when gold was free, so was healing. A tighter market I believe will prove to be in everyone's interests.

As for crafting being an afterthought, I guess you might be feeling less than confident in the efforts of the dev team and server leadership here. I get that though, there remain many imperfections with Arelith. Currently I am mostly considering loot and enchanting. Crafting requires a great deal of attention, but it does come down to man hours. A piecemeal approach to it will not work, and a full overhaul would be most welcome.

This really is WAY off topic, but I'll write this here in any case, if anyone wants to pick it up in a separate thread then by all means do so:

My problem with looting/enchanting/crafting is that they're all alternative competing methods to do the same thing; the more one is improved, the more the other two suffer. Ideally I would like to see these also compliment one another, whereby something crafted can be improved by enchanters working with looted rare materials. For weapons I would like this to eventually be acheived via runes, found and included in the recipe to create unique weapons that are more readily enchanted.

As another example, with Midnight's 'procedural' loot, ideally this should be something for enchanters to work with (with greater possibilites of success).

Back to the subject of Haks though, I think a lot of the resistance to idea, is for want of a better word, historical. Many arguments against their inclusion are simply not as relevant as they once were. I can only stress again that this is less a question of whether it is a good idea, but how realistically it can be achieved without succumbing to certain pitfalls in the process. Even if I said 'right, we're doing this' the resulting workload on myself and the team would be signifcant, and as some posters have rightly pointed out, there are definitely some aspects of Arelith that require more pressing attention.

There are, however, members of the team who, who have impresssed upon me how much more readily some of this could be appraoched if their hands weren't tied by the restriction on HAKs, and I've learned to take such input seriously. We'll see where this goes, but it won't be quick, it not guaranteed, and it won't be an overnight change, or done via some decree from myself.

[Rwby]

While I hugely value Irongron's thoughts and views, and find myself agreeing with him almost 100%, I am curious as to the views of Arelith's other two administrators on the matter.

[Irongron]

While I hugely value Irongron's thoughts and views, and find myself agreeing with him almost 100%, I am curious as to the views of Arelith's other two administrators on the matter.

I'm sure they'll chime in at some stage, and I'm also sure they may not fully agreee wtih me. When I took over ownersship of Arelith I decided it was essential to appoint Admins to share equal authority with me over such decisions, because (frankly) I can get a lot of stuff wrong. Good intentions are all well and good, but I don't think any single individual can be relied upon to always make the right call.

[Iceborn]

I'll be expecting this with great delight.
For myself, I simply see too much good in the HAKs to not use them. Too many possibilities, too many simple tweaks that would make the game better and I can't help but to scoff at the few reasons that get in the way of seeing that happen one day.

I'd gladly volunteer for testing, and probably updating every single ability description in the game. Whatever it takes to see this smoothed out and received the best way possible.

[Shadofury]

I'll be expecting this with great delight.
For myself, I simply see too much good in the HAKs to not use them. Too many possibilities, too many simple tweaks that would make the game better and I can't help but to scoff at the few reasons that get in the way of seeing that happen one day.

I'd gladly volunteer for testing, and probably updating every single ability description in the game. Whatever it takes to see this smoothed out and received the best way possible.

I agree, if a couple hours a day just typing in fixed descriptions can help, I can help and will relish the change of pace to my day when i cant play. Whatever is needed to let the code minds do their thing better.

[Septire]

I just wanted to chime in because I read earlier someone mentioning additional clothing options:

The Guldorand hak server that is being mentioned here would only be able to include things which would allow a character to transition to and from a hak server. This means what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. We could do something like creature models, tilesets, placeables, and things of that nature. Anything that could go onto a character would not work, such as weapon or clothing appearance options, additional heads, new spells, etc. Bottom line is that the character file itself, and the inventory held by the character, should be compatible with vanilla NWN.

If we're talking about new clothing, heads, etc that would either require character partitioning (vanilla vs hak characters) or to make Arelith a hak server (going all the way with haks).

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Haks, yes. Regular updates? Wouldn't affect me, but no. Not everyone is fortunate enough to download at 3-5 megabytes per second.

Back in the day, however, I used free-to-use-with-banner-ads dialup ISPs overnight. Netzero free dialup for ten hours a month is still a thing. Back in the day I got 56k out of netzero, so ten hours is plenty to download haks. (56k x 20 seconds = 1.1 megs x3 = 3.3 megs/minute x 60 = 198 megs/hour x 10 = 1.98 gigabytes of download time.)

So as long as you aren't pumping out multiple updates per month, this is freely doable thing, depending on location. Netzero is not the only company of it's kind- I would be interested in hearing how many people do not have a free dial-up service provider in their area.


Once upon a time I played on an older local Vault server that maintained a #1 position on the server lists for quite some time. It ran CEP and updated regularly as CEP released new content. Everything else was done server-side via custom scripting, much like Arelith has done to date.

I used to speak with the administrator and lead script-writer there, and he mentioned that one of the hard parts about including haks and server-modifying scripts together was making sure that one didn't stop working a certain way because of the other. That was part of the reason the only haks that were included were the CEP files. The more diversity you start including the more things you have to familiarize yourself with to make sure there isn't an oops.

Of course, it's been over a decade, and I still have no capacity to script or write haks in NWN, so it's entirely possible that both time and lack of in-depth knowledge have led to me misunderstanding that. But if I haven't, do I correctly understand that the first and largest challenge of adding any official haks would be making sure all the currently custom-scripted content doesn't break as a result, and then that the currently scripted content doesn't break the hak?

[Septire]

Most of the mod support for NWN has slowed down from what I've seen. The fires have cooled, and while there are still some instabilities here and there, it's pretty safe to say that most content is in its final version. This is good from the standpoint of bandwidth and updates, because it likely won't require many downloads after the first.

Bad news bears is if there are problems with the walkmesh or .dds textures in a hakpack, someone will have to fix them, and doing so requires a completely different skillset than the one most of us have with the toolset. 3D Studio Max (I think there's an NW plugin for this), and I think Maya and Blender for 3D models. Photoshop skills for art assets are a definite plus too. Not impossible to figure out but there is certainly a learning curve that is involved.

Though, there's another blessing here that hasn't been mentioned, and that is if someone was interested in doing custom assets for Arelith, such as a tileset or creature, it could be done. Haks really are the final frontier for Arelith, and can add enormous amounts of new content to the game.

On scripts: the local version for the module overrides the hak version, so there shouldn't be too many script-related conflicts. It really depends on what content is being added, and whether the existing scripts can account for added content.

Any new PrCs or anything of the like, new weapons, etc could end up being a balancing nightmare. Then again, more power to adjust the sources of imbalance.

[Durvayas]

If i may be so bold. Perhaps restoring the server homepage to full functionality before adding links to download haks might be in order.

Im in full support of the move, however. I just think the website should finally be fixed first.

[Irongron]

If i may be so bold. Perhaps restoring the server homepage to full functionality before adding links to download haks might be in order.

Im in full support of the move, however. I just think the website should finally be fixed first.

That is the plan. I'm talking about doing this towards the end of 2017, and a new website beforehand is an absolute must.

Thankfully we're seeeing some movement again on that front.

[Kuma]

YES

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS

[DM Symphony]

So, I have a lot I could say on this topic, having spent a lot of times around haks and hak problems, but, I am not interested in shooting off into too many directions right now.

What I will say, as marked point for some current concerns, both here, and in the override thread, is that a compromise could be made.

The NWNX_haks plugins allow haks to be in the custom content list, but, hide them from joining players, thus allowing people with no haks to join the server. What this could mean and make possible, in consideration of our "two camp" proposed future:

1) The first set of hak content would be for new creature models, tilesets, as Septire has explained. This would be exclusive content that would require the haks to witness, and something that could be enjoyed only while being on the other side of the "wall".

2) A second set of haks optional consisting ONLY of overwriting original content would be designed in tadem, to enhance not only the "player experience" on the other side of the "wall", but also to enhance NWN's stock resources in appropriate manners across the server. These "overrides" would re-render the game in both areas, but be optional content unnecessary for playing on the common areas of the server.

So, to clarify, mountainous-forest Foggy Breath and Arelith original score, composed by DM Symphony, would be stuff you could see and use IF you had the haks and IF you were in the hak-only zone, and stuff like spear changes, grass model changes, Improved skyboxes, and cobweb replacements would be stuff you could enjoy all over the server, new areas and current, and of course playing with no haks would be also fine, and would appear as the server does today, which, is still quite full of a vast amount of enriching custom content.

[Mr_Rieper]

The Skull Crags with haks.

[Septire]

It's not quite Elder Scrolls in terms of graphical quality but it's certainly better looking than the vanilla tilesets. It's definitely an improvement. When I have more time, I'll post a few screenshots here of what some of the tilesets look like. Then again, Irongron has also worked with some of them, so maybe a few screenshots of that work would be in order? Pictures are persuasive!

[DM Symphony]

If this is a real direction, and, we want to talk about potential, graphically, we could possibly start another thread for pictures of specific features which I could and would easily populate with a lot of stuff that illustrates specific changes and additions which satisfy the upper levels of quality and function that I am interested in.

[Shadofury]

Because alot of players do not use the forums, maybe an in game msg can be inserted like when a leadership change is going on so those who do not use them yet can have some input as well. Not just us crazy forum junkies who have split screens

[Septire]

Also, with regards to what Symphony said, I have been working on Point #2 for a while but it fell by the wayside. I had planned, if anyone wants to take me up on it, to port Project Q into an override version. There's a trick I stumbled across that was mentioned in 1.69's patch-notes but never really ended up being used here, and that is patch pre-loading. Basically this is how it works:

There's an nwnpatch.ini file in your NWN directory. It contains something like this:

Code: Select all

[Patch]
PatchFile000=

And you have a patch folder (NWN\Patch). What you can do is stick hak files into your patch folder, and then add it to your nwnpatch.ini

Code: Select all

[Patch]
PatchFile000=myhak1
PatchFile001=myhak2

Then, when you load up NWN, it loads in the haks onto your base game. So why is this cool? Well, I really like the doors from Project Q, the new sound effects, and some of the new models. Because I am lazy and didn't want to go through every texture and model file in Project Q and prune all the extra content, I loaded Project Q into my base game like this. No need to mess around with a bunch of loose files in the override folder. Result? Exactly what you'd expect: Creature model override, door override, sound effect override, weapon model override. All that jazz. I did a little extra tinkering for HiRes head models to load in for the base NWN heads (HiRes base heads, notbad.jpg), and some nice icon overrides for Immunities.

Basically we're going for this here.

No just kidding.

We're looking at good tilesets, like this. Or this. Or this.

There's a lot more in CEP and CTP too. Oh this one looks good too. Basically you just go shopping for tilesets you like.

[DM Symphony]

Septire, I basically was wrapping up an alpha package of the exact same Q-converted + others patch hak suite when you mentioned it the other month.