Balance Team

[Hunter548]

As for stepping at bard toes?I dont think they actually are,PDKs are more a optional complement for battle bards.Saying PDKs are stepping on bards toes is like saying CoTs are stepping on paladins toes Edit:PDK also has a cap of 10 levels,while CoT's dont.Just my opinion though

The difference is that PDK actually has both better ab and hit dice than a bard doesñ while largely getting the same bonuses (or better in some cases). Sure, no spells, but who cares? Use wands.

Take pdk on a melee build, enjoy your 55-60 effective ab and improved expertise with no ab penalty,

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I don't think Socksss tone has ever drifted into rudeness or impoliteness. There are good points being raised. Also, after having reread the new PDK a dozen times, I have to agree with Hunter on this.

I don't really understand the new PDK. It seems to just give level 20 bards huge upsides for a 5-level investment. And, while some corners of the community bemoan the lack of attention non-warlock bards receive, I think bards have always been in a great spot when compared to the majority of other classes.

Imagine using a Lasting Inspiration'd Bard Song and Inspire Courage? This is what a party would get, assuming a level 20 bard song, and 16 charisma:

+3 attack (2+1)
+4 damage (3+1)
+6 Will Saves
+5 Reflex Saves
+5 Fortitude Saves
+28 THP
+5 Dodge AC
+8 on Skills

All of this will last your party at least 10 rounds. A level 5 PDK can do this at least twice before resting, and 6 times if a Valiant.

I don't know. Isn't this a little strong? I played an epic bardadin before, and it was already a good mechanical build, but this new PDK is all just straight-upside. I don't even know how much you lose out on without taking fighter - especially because you don't even need feat-investment for this PrC (unlike Harper Scout).

There would be no better party-support build than a bard/PDK/X. Like it's crazy. It seems crazy. Bards have always been great classes in a party, but now it's indisputable with a bard/PDK.

Or am I over-estimating the class?

[Sockss]

The type of buffs and debuffs provided by PDK, are mirrored by bards. (Stepping on their toes).

Buffs/Debuffs would be fine, if they worked in a different way.

This additionally presents a problem with balancing when both a PDK and a Bard are present in encounters, because they are modifying the same statistics.

Additionally he PDK bonuses, from 10 levels, are superior to a level 30 bard, with significantly less trade off. (If you can't see that, I'm sure you can agree that they're certainly far, far greater than a level 10 bard.)

Anyway! This is exactly what I didn't want to get into, so I'm out!

[Wytchee]

PDK is crazy.

Mage change isn't likely to get most existing mages hyped but of course future builds have the potential to be crazy.

Anyway, I get the impression that it wasn't looked at, just someone wanted to play a spellsword!

Wild Mages have a surge that boosts AB to fighter levels and grants 2d8 bludgeoning damage. With the addition of a third APR it's got a few of us excited, especially with Shapechange.

[Catchup]

You don't seem to have understood the possibilities pdk as is offers.

It won't replace bard.

It'll break the pve and pvp ''meta'' to an extent never seen before.

If that's the intent then fine.

[Shadowy Reality]

If I am understanding correctly...

You can have someone with no weapons sitting at their BAB + Str AB, say 35, then the PDK at their fully buffed AB, say 50. The other person gets 15 and then can equip the weapon to further increase the AB.

I fear if this works with a True Strike Potion, making the AB bonus effectively permanent.

[yellowcateyes]

Heroic Shield uses the difference in BAB, not AB.

It's Final Stand that uses a current stat, and that's for AC.

[One Two Three Five]

Capping the bonuses at, idk, PDK level would probably fix it without making the class pointless to take.

[Karris the Anarchist]

PDK is crazy.

Mage change isn't likely to get most existing mages hyped but of course future builds have the potential to be crazy.

Anyway, I get the impression that it wasn't looked at, just someone wanted to play a spellsword!

Wild Mages have a surge that boosts AB to fighter levels and grants 2d8 bludgeoning damage. With the addition of a third APR it's got a few of us excited, especially with Shapechange.

The first rule of Wild Club...we do not talk about Wild Club!