The current state of Wharftown

[Cerk Evermoore]

Well, with WT there is a whole lot of hate underneath the surface for the DMs and the Cordor side of things for how the whole event went. (For reference, see to the fact that WTers and people who did things for WT were excluded from doing counter activities during the event. With such honors going to people who had no stake in the actual town, nor were they given a win condition and as such had no reason to actually log on for it other than to just die for no reason, see to the reason Khabul was the only one in WT defending). So I would recommend just not expecting anything to be done in the long or short of it for the situation being a bit too.. Toxic to touch right now.

We're not really that mad despite the IC narrative we push. Most folks simply see it as character / server progression. I would like to see the npcs made friendly and it become a friendly "bandit town."

[Rwby]

Well, with WT there is a whole lot of hate underneath the surface for the DMs and the Cordor side of things for how the whole event went. (For reference, see to the fact that WTers and people who did things for WT were excluded from doing counter activities during the event. With such honors going to people who had no stake in the actual town, nor were they given a win condition and as such had no reason to actually log on for it other than to just die for no reason, see to the reason Khabul was the only one in WT defending). So I would recommend just not expecting anything to be done in the long or short of it for the situation being a bit too.. Toxic to touch right now.

Having been present during the event, this is most certainly not entirely true.

[susitsu]

no, there's hate, you're just not being told about it.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

no, there's hate, you're just not being told about it.

I believe what is being contested is the lack of counter-options being claimed. Having also been involved (and having been a part of the quest that enabled the Navy to bombard WT in the first place) I can tell you that there were definitely other options.

The fact that more than the IG-month was given in order to allow members of the faction to log in and RP around it, and to give other people a chance to save WT is more than indication of the willingness for things to have gone differently.

IMO hatred about the event is misdirected anger, or being confused for anger about the PvP involved in the event.

There was a moment where I considered sabotaging the mission to secure the Amnian Fleet, but Cev had just found out WT was executing people trying to flee the city and from there it was dead to him. WT's actions literally were the deciding factor in whether or not the fleet even arrived, as a result. (You could argue there might have been other avenues/groups, but we'll never know).

[yellowcateyes]

Back to OT, since discussing the event will likely derail the thread.


Laurick parking himself in a ruined town filled with bandits is one of those things that stretch suspension of disbelief. As other posters have noted, there's no real reason for him to stop there on the way to Brogendenstein.

It'd be good if Laurick was given a third destination conversation tree, that takes you direct from Crow's Nest to Brog and back for a bit of extra gold.

[Ramza]

Aye, sorry if I was derailing this a bit. Just figured I would put out what ive been seeing on this case.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I do agree about Laurick stopping in at WT the way things currently stands making little to no sense for a number of reasons.

I also think that the ruin of WT would be more foreboding and atmospheric if people had to trudge through the ruined landscape to get there initially, knowing that it's in the middle of so many hostile elements.

[susitsu]

Okay, I know who to add to my list of hated for that event, thank you, Aelryn.

[DM Always This Late]

Well

As a DM I cannot fix any of the problems listed. That has to be the devs. It's out of my hands or any other Dms hands to alter the server in the ways suggested.

But until a Dev can examine it, or change it, My purpose in posting was to provide some IC explanations that could be used in game to supplement the feeling of "This is just OOC" It's better to look at things through an IC perspective rather then assume that miss fortunes must be OOC issues. Perhaps it is? Perhaps it isn't? Maybe Laurick /is/ a Wharftown boy and he's been delivering adventurers to the thugs for a bonus payment? Maybe the PCs need to take his name to the Government and demand a trial and justice! Maybe Lauricks family is held hostage and he is forced to maintain the travel route to Wharftown without diversion otherwise his dear wife gets the knife from a Wharftown boy!

To address a few comments regarding toxicity and recommendations to just leave Wharftown alone. Threatening that change won't come to a place because players will be toxic? The server isn't held hostage by toxic players. Anyone choosing to be toxic with the intent of trying to manipulate the server with toxicity is not going to be sticking around. If you are absolutely determined to be unhappy then that is your choice, what's done is done.

I'll highlight the feedback thread for our team that is what this portion of the forum is here for after all! We'll see what becomes of it.

[Rwby]

Thanks DM. I appreciate the positions that you're in, and the attempt to bridge the gap with some suggest IC reasoning is appreciated.

[Cerk Evermoore]

WT's actions literally were the deciding factor in whether or not the fleet even arrived, as a result. (You could argue there might have been other avenues/groups, but we'll never know).

Wharftown had several options and chances to give up. Can't just have Wharftown beat Cordor in a war and have it make any kind of sense. Wharftown could have surrendered but they were all chaotic evil so the humanitarian disaster was actually considered a positive to some of the cities leadership...

Be happy for change and not miserable every time the DM's stomp on a faction. Even if it is your own.

[DM Always This Late]

There was a Wharftown event regarding the Wharftown boys. The details of which you'll have to discover IC!

But there were some adjustments that should hopefully prevent the boat boarding of the Wharftown boys and align to the event that was played out.

[Stath]

Since I started playing Arelith in 2014, Wharftown always tended to be one of the more interesting Settlements on the Module for a variety of largely, and admittedly personal reasons. The physical map and gamespace of the Town itself was designed very well in a realistic, asthetic and very convenient- from a gameplay perspective, manner.

Due to being smaller and a little more rustic, it forced characters to interact with each other far more and everything was very centralized. Quarters were just right and there was enough of them, but they were still hotly contested. One of the big draws was customization, in a sense. Wharftown had it's own character and theme, but it was also malleable and roleplay could influence the feel of the entire Settlement.

It provided a nice and different alternative from Cordor, and it had that whole redesign awhile back which were due to a lot of IC collaboration and longrunning actions. That being said, actions have consequences and it's kind of cool to actually see consequences happen, and for the world of Arelith to change and grow.

I don't think most people hate the fact there was a big change, I think that most people didn't exactly like the writing of said change. This is perhaps more of an IC thing, but it felt like Cordor just plot armoured and deus ex machina'd Wharftown out of existence overnight, as opposed to there being some back and forth thing that could've made players on both sides feel like they had a little more agency, while still staying true to the Devs pre-wrote story.

Also? I wrote this hungover gg

[Sab1]

I think that feeling is normal and can be frustrating. I remember being frustrated about udos losing to lose no matter what and Benwick the DM's if I remember right had to say basically ok you lost because the players wouldn't give up the fight. I wasn't here for wharftown but I think it falls along with Udos and Benwick where ok this gone on too long, BAMMMM we have to get this over and move on.

My problem with wharftown was it became a never ending cycle of evil takes over, they lose it, good tries to hold it, evil comes back, repeat. But this was bound to end badly when it seems like drow were openly helping run the town.

As for lurick, every reason for him to stop there. Adventurers want to fight bandits, go to FOD etc. So he delivers them close. I agree you shouldn't immedietly be stabbed as you arrive, but I see no issues with him taking brave adventurers to a place they want to go. Him going there still is about the same as a captain willing to sail adventurers to an island full of giants and dragons.

[Nitro]

I just dislike any mobs that spawn on server transitions. Getting ganked as a wizzer or sorcerer by mobs when transitioning server sucks real bad.

[Ork]

Changing how Wharftown Boys Archers become alert could solve this. They, similar to the Malar Archers, just have to have line of sight to open fire.

[DM Always This Late]

Just to note again there was some changes that should make Wharftown less dangerous after the event that occurred with the Wharftown boys

It's still a hostile place and I'd not go unprepared, but it should be easier to move about and less boat spawn whacking.

[Marsi]

This is perhaps more of an IC thing, but it felt like Cordor just plot armoured and deus ex machina'd Wharftown out of existence overnight, as opposed to there being some back and forth thing that could've made players on both sides feel like they had a little more agency, while still staying true to the Devs pre-wrote story.

There was definitely a back and forth, and the only plot armour was the consequence of ignoring NPCs and NPC population. The war system didn't really allow for satisfying conflict in the first place -- hence its removal -- so I'm not really sure what the people who felt this way were hoping for. Like others have mentioned, this is a collaborative but moderated story we're playing at here, and those who expect win/lose conditions based on who outkills who are always going to go home deeply frustrated. This isn't a 1999 UO Felucca server, and might makes right has never really been the case on Arelith for a long time.

[Irongron]

I don't think most people hate the fact there was a big change, I think that most people didn't exactly like the writing of said change. This is perhaps more of an IC thing, but it felt like Cordor just plot armoured and deus ex machina'd Wharftown out of existence overnight, as opposed to there being some back and forth thing that could've made players on both sides feel like they had a little more agency, while still staying true to the Devs pre-wrote story.

I generally don't like discussing IC things on the forums, but in this case I feel I have to, as this represents a entirely false narrative of what occurred.

The destruction of Wharftown was very far from a 'pre-wrote' story, and I was looking until the last moment for the players to give me a way to avoid it. I really loved the place, and had put a great deal of effort into making it.

Edwards Proclomation was made well in advance of the attack, in the hope that this could foster a lot of RP (which it did) and so that the leaders and allies of Wharftown could find a way to avoid it (which they didn't)

Almost as soon as it was made I began getting a LOT of OOC messages/complaints, and responded to all saying that the game should not be played on the forums, and that there were plenty of IC ways to deal with this. To some of those approaching me I went as far as to hint at what could be done, but asked each not to share them, as I didn't want to see OOC 'forum play' have any influence over direction. The message, very strongly, was 'play the game, and if you want to change things do so in-character'

At the very outset of the quest I privately outlined on the DM forums a great many ways I imagined this could be stopped, from attempting to ally with NPC naval forces such as the pirates and sahuanguin (I asked DMs to be prepared to launch the Tidehunter against the fleet), undermining Amn's support for Cordor, reaching out to other settlements, and much else. In addition to the specific plans I asked DMS to keep a keen eye out for any I had not thought of.

DMs were advised I was looking for player intiative here, and did not want anyone to be 'led' into these possible ideas, but DMs were online near constantly in the weeks before watching almost everything done by Wharftown's leadership, and I was asking them, daily, for ANY movement to prevent this.

It simply did not happen, the warning were ignored, or dismissed, until ultimately there was talk from the leadership, in front of NPCS, that they'd just let Wharftown burn, because that wouldn't stop them attacking Cordorians. It was at this point that many NPCs left, some of whom telling anyone who would listen what they heard.

The area work for removing Wharftown was done at the very last minute by myself while the final event was being played in game. I didn't do it earlier because the outcome was far from pre-arranged, and because I did not want to see all the work that I and Artos did there destroyed.

So, without going on further. THe above fault is false. This ended the way it did, because of how players and characters reacted. Not all ingnored this of course, and Cordor's Flagship was sunk precisely because of 1 person's actions, who was about the only one who sought a way to prevent this.

[-XXX-]

Honestly, it appeared to me that you personally have pretty much announced "we're doing this, deal with it" 1 week before it went down. I've not seen characters who ran Wharftown after that. I'm guessing that they just were disgruntled by the form that the entire event took place and made no effort to log in and/or participate in the "outs" that you were suggesting.

IDK, personally I'm trying to stay impartial. Every change is ultimately a good thing and I bet this will be so in the long run as well.
Though a thing to consider is to remove Cordor from the settlement system altogather. If anything the whole Wharftown even sends a message along the lines "Cordor officials run the island, oppose them openly and the DMs will explode you ex machina style". If Cordor's supposed to be a superpower, either a counterweight should be put somewhere or PCs should not run it at all IMO.

[Irongron]

Honestly, it appeared to me that you personally have pretty much announced "we're doing this, deal with it" 1 week before it went down.

I think we were entirely clear on this. In the topic here, as well as in the news article itself. viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12655&hilit=Wharftown#p104805


viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12621&p=104463&hil ... wn#p104460


Overall though I was really happy with how this played out among those that were involved, the dms did an excellent job and it was enjoyed by many. I've no regrets, but felt compelled to refute the suggestion that this was a prewritten outcome and that players had no agency. We repeated that fact again, both before, during and now after the event.

[The GrumpyCat]

I just want to confirm what Irongron is saying. We really were hoping that the leadership would do something to stop this, we really were watching, we really did want them to do something. Certainly the cordorian lot seemed to take an active attempt to prevent it. But it seemed (and I admit I may be wrong here) that the enrire Wharf government shrugged their shoulders and went, 'Welp, we're doomed.' We certainly recieved no PMs or contact from them as to any attempt to prevent this.

And in case there's doubt, here is a copy of the proclomation Edward put up around the isle.

"It is with a heavy heart that I today signed the necessary documents to order the razing of the fishing settlement of Wharftown on the Bitter Coast.

At the end of the next month the army and navy of Cordor, together with the Amnian expeditionary force to begin the bombardment.

This has not been an easy decision, but it comes after many years of intermittent conflict, and we can no longer permit such a threat to exist so close to our own borders. We ask our friends in the Earthkin Alliance, Myon and elsewhere sever any remaining diplomatic ties to Wharftown.

I urge all citizens who have not yet done so to leave the town at the earliest opportunity. If, before that date, the conflict is ended and the leader of Wharftown in custody this order may still be rescinded. *This letter is signed by the hand of King Edward Cordor and bears the seal the city*

And If I might highlight for emphesis.

"It is with a heavy heart that I today signed the necessary documents to order the razing of the fishing settlement of Wharftown on the Bitter Coast.

At the end of the next month the army and navy of Cordor, together with the Amnian expeditionary force to begin the bombardment.

This has not been an easy decision, but it comes after many years of intermittent conflict, and we can no longer permit such a threat to exist so close to our own borders. We ask our friends in the Earthkin Alliance, Myon and elsewhere sever any remaining diplomatic ties to Wharftown.

I urge all citizens who have not yet done so to leave the town at the earliest opportunity. IF BEFORE THAT DATE, THE CONFLICT IS ENDED AND THE LEADER OF WHATFTOWN IN CUSTODY THIS ORDER MAY STILL BE RECINDED. *This letter is signed by the hand of King Edward Cordor and bears the seal the city*

Right away, from the get go, there was an immedate 'out' from this. It wasn't taken, fair enough. Nor any many other viable options explored by the Wharftown leadership as far as we could see. But that's hardly our fault.

[Giftstoff]

I understand that this kind of transparency is by no means required, but it really reinforces what i've thought lately, which is that the current leadership by the DM team and Admin team is really leading Arelith in the RIGHT direction, which allows for great freedom in RP and conflict exactly like this.

You guys are great, truly.

[Marsi]

IDK, personally I'm trying to stay impartial. Every change is ultimately a good thing and I bet this will be so in the long run as well.
Though a thing to consider is to remove Cordor from the settlement system altogather. If anything the whole Wharftown even sends a message along the lines "Cordor officials run the island, oppose them openly and the DMs will explode you ex machina style". If Cordor's supposed to be a superpower, either a counterweight should be put somewhere or PCs should not run it at all IMO.

Statements like that are pretty much the opposite of "staying impartial", don't you think?

[-XXX-]

Yes, I do think it is impartial. An IG conflict took place and once Cordor officials were unable to end it, the dev team altered the landscape to faciliate their victory. That's a recounting of what went down, objectively, without any bias. I'm not criticising the decision, merely pointing out that's pretty much what happened. The rest is just details.