Arelith

flower wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:22 am I am sorry, but things have to be set with the optimised builds in mind. If it was not the case, then those who make -optimised- would greatly benefit from it and you would feel the impact as well.

Miskol wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:37 pm

flower wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:22 am I am sorry, but things have to be set with the optimised builds in mind. If it was not the case, then those who make -optimised- would greatly benefit from it and you would feel the impact as well.

I entirely disagree with this statement. There are players who do not make optimized builds, and these changes specifically targeted at optimized builds unnecessarily punishes them, albeit unintentionally. Powerbuilders have always existed and will continue to exist, those who want the mechanically best build will just simply move on to another character while those devoted to the RP of their character will be left in the dust amidst the changes.

Cortex wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:24 am I didn't understand any of this.

What is this "blender build"?

Class Race Barbarian(17), Fighter(10), Rogue(3), Half Orc Gift

Abilies STR: 21 (28)
DEX: 9
CON: 16
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 6

30 Half Orc Gift: (Darkvision, Power Attack, Ambidexterity)
Bb 01: Barbarian(1): Weapon Proficiency Exotic
Bb 02: Barbarian(2): {Uncanny Dodge I}
Bb 03: Barbarian(3): Weapon Focus
Bb 04: Barbarian(4): STR+1, (STR=22)
Bb 05: Barbarian(5)
Bb 06: Barbarian(6): Two-Weapon Fighting
Bb 07: Barbarian(7)
Bb 08: Barbarian(8): STR+1, (STR=23)
Bb 09: Barbarian(9): Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Bb 10: Barbarian(10)
Bb 11: Barbarian(11)
Bb 12: Barbarian(12): STR+1, Blind Fight, (STR=24)
Bb 13: Barbarian(13)
Bb 14: Barbarian(14)
Bb 15: Barbarian(15): Improved Critical
F 16: Fighter(1): STR+1, Knockdown, (STR=25)
F 17: Fighter(2): Improved Knockdown
F 18: Fighter(3): Toughness
F 19: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization
F 20: Fighter(5): STR+1, (STR=26)
F 21: Fighter(6): Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization
F 22: Fighter(7)
F 23: Fighter(8): Armor Skin
Bb 24: Barbarian(16): STR+1, Terrifying Rage, (STR=27)
F 25: Fighter(9)
F 26: Fighter(10): Epic Prowess
Ro 27: Rogue(1): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline
Ro 28: Rogue(2): STR+1, {Evasion}, (STR=28)
Ro 29: Rogue(3)
Bb 30: Barbarian(17): Thundering Rage

Class Race Monk(4), Purple Dragon Knight(10), Assassin(16), Half Orc Gift

Abilies STR: 21 (28)
DEX: 9
CON: 16
WIS: 8
INT: 14
CHA: 6

30 Half Orc Gift: (Darkvision, Power Attack, Ambidexterity)
M 01: Monk(1): FREE SPACE, Or Skill Focus Disc if it's actually required, {Cleave, Evasion, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist}
M 02: Monk(2): {Deflect Arrows}
M 03: Monk(3): Weapon Focus
PDK 04: Purple Dragon Knight(1): STR+1, (STR=22)
PDK 05: Purple Dragon Knight(2)
PDK 06: Purple Dragon Knight(3): Two-Weapon Fighting
PDK 07: Purple Dragon Knight(4)
PDK 08: Purple Dragon Knight(5): STR+1, (STR=23)
PDK 09: Purple Dragon Knight(6): Blind Fight
PDK 10: Purple Dragon Knight(7)
PDK 11: Purple Dragon Knight(8)
PDK 12: Purple Dragon Knight(9): STR+1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, (STR=24)
M 13: Monk(4)
As 14: Assassin(1):
As 15: Assassin(2): Improved Critical, {Uncanny Dodge I}
As 16: Assassin(3): STR+1, (STR=25)
As 17: Assassin(4)
As 18: Assassin(5): Toughness
As 19: Assassin(6): Evasion
As 20: Assassin(7): STR+1, (STR=26)
As 21: Assassin(8): Epic Weapon Focus
As 22: Assassin(9)
As 23: Assassin(10)
As 24: Assassin(11): STR+1, Armor Skin, (STR=27)
As 25: Assassin(12): Defensive Roll
As 26: Assassin(13)
As 27: Assassin(14): Epic Prowess, Epic Skill Focus: Hide
As 28: Assassin(15): STR+1, (STR=28)
As 29: Assassin(16): Improved Evasion
PDK 30: Purple Dragon Knight(10): Epic Skill Focus: Discipline

Miskol wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:00 pm So then the message you would be sending to new players and those focused on the RP aspects of the game is to make a powerbuild or be useless? I think you fail to see the point I made here, which is that Arelith is an RP server. If these strong builds are being abused in PvP, they will be dealt with by the DM team. As for the case of spellswords, it cannot be compared to barbarians. Full BAB spellswords were grandfathered, the imbue changes didn't affect STR or DEX builds specifically. Not a single spellsword needed to be rebuilt to stay average. However, for barbarian, CON builds are disproportionately affected compared to STR builds. As of now, the only thing that CON does for a barbarian is extend rage duration and increase the effectiveness of terrifying rage. This effectively forces barbarians who have heavily invested in CON to effectively remake their characters if they want to remain somewhat relevant.

Miskol wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:00 pm I think you fail to see the point I made here, which is that Arelith is an RP server. If these strong builds are being abused in PvP, they will be dealt with by the DM team.

Miskol wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 5:15 pm What I'm saying is should we be funneling players down a single build path? There were other ways to balance the high damage half orc barbarians builds in a way that wouldn't affect other barbarian play styles. Just as how monk was specifically balanced for dragon shape and dragon shape alone. Not everyone wants to play a high strength glass canon, but the recent changes have made other build variants more and more undesireable.

Scurvy Cur wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:11 pm Miskol, if you'd like to avoid the callouts, you're perfectly welcome to avoid venturing into what is essentially a balance discussion with a rousing cry of "But what about the innocent RP builders whoare playing full con barbs". I'll leave you alone then.

However, so long as you're voluntarily joining in on this conversation and passing yourself off as an RP builder, or at least someone whose primary concern is RP builds, it's actually very germane to the conversation to point out that your concern about RP builds is entirely one of convenience, rather than a deeply held conviction.

Cerk Evermoore wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:35 pm I learned effective character building is important when Stellen Varg killed my 30 warlock in two hits. You are either the butcher or the meat.

Cerk Evermoore wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:35 pm I learned effective character building is important when Stellen Varg killed my 30 warlock in two hits. You are either the butcher or the meat.

Cortex wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 9:36 pm The "blender build" you posted gets +1 more AB, 10 discipline he probably won't need since it's already sweating testosterone, Armor Skin and two extra skill points/level over a normal 21/6/3 with EDR3.

So unless I'm missing something, it's final stats are 660 at max CON(756 during rage), 48 AB(49 in rage), 33 AC (if you're DEX capped in plate armor), 31.5 physical damage (40.5 during rage), 2 DR, 5% (10% during rage), and Terrifying Rage which may boost effective AC to 35, 70 ish discipline.

Compared to the one I posted: 660 at max CON(786 during rage), 47 AB(49 during rage), 30 AC (dex capped in scale armor), 31.5 physical damage (42.5 during rage), 13 DR, 5% damage immunity (15% during rage), 60ish discipline.

So, things your build is 'better' at: 3 AC, Terrifying Rage (honestly it serves 1h better and is otherwise just a seal clubbing feat), 1 more skill point per level (since you'll be using one for intimidate), 10 discipline (on a super STR heavy build it isn't that important), Improved Knockdown (it's nice to have but end of the day it's only +4 on the disc roll and lets you KD dragons if you're into that). While the one I posted has +11 DR and +5 DI% which makes for a staggering amount of damage reduction when coupled with the high base HP pool on top of the temporary 126 HP.

Honestly, if I were to play your build, I'd drop Armor Skin and ESF Discipline for Great STR II.

Does it have merits? It does, but it gives up all damage soaking in exchange of these merits, not something I'd consider worth it. The things it gains when comparing the two overlaps with the DR in field of defense, but in ways that are much more niche and not really as useful. Even after the barbarian temp HP nerf, your version is far too glassy compared to the DR one in exchange of too little, it's not a HP sponge so much as a blob of HP without many defenses to speak of.

(the pdk assassin is also kind of awful but posting another giant text wall about it isn't in my to do list today)
(also cut down on the passive aggression)

Cortex wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:49 pm This "1000 damage per round" is incredibly subjective and arbitrary when you're not presenting where it comes from. The aura-wiggle is something that needs fixing to apply only once IMO, as for when it was first designed, it wasn't meant to activate multiple times.

Cortex wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 11:03 pm Maybe that aura issue is fixed sooner than you'd think now.

The immobilize is also not instant, it can be a half-round action if you were previously hasted, and if the opponent has FoM it will not work. So unless you're cheesing hard or you're fighting people that don't really know what they're up against/don't know what they're doing/is an uneven gangbang, I just don't see it.

Cortex wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:44 pm

Cerk Evermoore wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:35 pm I learned effective character building is important when Stellen Varg killed my 30 warlock in two hits. You are either the butcher or the meat.

By far this is the most bizzare post in this thread as of yet.

Here I am thinking how a scim WM could two shot a level 30 warlock when they still had DR, considering the base HP of a pure warlock with 10 CON is 240, you'd need to have sub-10 CON or he would have to critical'd you for 130 damage twice if you went for 10 CON.

DM Spyre wrote: Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:30 am The nerf is also not so heavy in HP. You probably dropped 60 HP? Yet maintained all your damage output and other increases.

You already have an exceptionally high amount. The formula, new and old, are presented for clarity - if you review them, you shouldn't see a high difference.