The Current Writ Limitations Break Immersion

[Sockss]

no personal attacks intended in any of my posts. Just constructive (and sometimes passionate) discussion =)

Same

[strong yeet]

But it's not just solo grinders alone who have the capacity to skip writs, only parties with people that have characters of widely varying level... which should be a pretty rare occurrence, right? I can count the amount of times I've been in parties like that (without DM involvement) on a hand. People who are within range of the writ can do it just fine, I have been playing around with the new change recently and haven't found much in the way of the newfound difficulty I keep reading about. I don't get it.

[JediMindTrix]

But it's not just solo grinders alone who have the capacity to skip writs,

I'm going to point out right now, solo grinding is the least optimal xp path.

[Rwby]

But it's not just solo grinders alone who have the capacity to skip writs,

I'm going to point out right now, solo grinding is the least optimal xp path.

On a 1vs1 adventure? Sure.
But the fact you can continue to venture indefinately without worrying about your party, that you can sprint rather than walk, don't need to wait for anyone elses breaks...
It's easily significantly better than just venturing in parties, particularly now writs give you adventure XP faster than you can lose it.

[Cortex]

But it's not just solo grinders alone who have the capacity to skip writs,

I'm going to point out right now, solo grinding is the least optimal xp path.

On a 1vs1 adventure? Sure.
But the fact you can continue to venture indefinately without worrying about your party, that you can sprint rather than walk, don't need to wait for anyone elses breaks...
It's easily significantly better than just venturing in parties, particularly now writs give you adventure XP faster than you can lose it.

what is stopping a party from sprinting, or having effective break times?

[Rwby]

I'm going to point out right now, solo grinding is the least optimal xp path.

On a 1vs1 adventure? Sure.
But the fact you can continue to venture indefinately without worrying about your party, that you can sprint rather than walk, don't need to wait for anyone elses breaks...
It's easily significantly better than just venturing in parties, particularly now writs give you adventure XP faster than you can lose it.

what is stopping a party from sprinting, or having effective break times?

Roleplay?

[Cortex]

On a 1vs1 adventure? Sure.
But the fact you can continue to venture indefinately without worrying about your party, that you can sprint rather than walk, don't need to wait for anyone elses breaks...
It's easily significantly better than just venturing in parties, particularly now writs give you adventure XP faster than you can lose it.

what is stopping a party from sprinting, or having effective break times?

Roleplay?

People can roleplay and sprint if they want. I don't get where you're getting these assumptions from.

[Wrips]

But it's not just solo grinders alone who have the capacity to skip writs,

I'm going to point out right now, solo grinding is the least optimal xp path.

Actually, doing nothing is the least optimal xp path.

[msterswrdsmn]

As one of those horrible, filthy solo grinders, I'd like to point a few things out.

-Some of those writs are -not- going to be something your average player can solo before they hit the cutoff point for writs. Minmar giants and deep orcland writs come to mind. I've seen people up into the epic levels struggle with those.

-There are some areas that are just terrible for certain builds, like the Viper Monk temple and stealth spawns, stunning fist and poison spam, and the crapload of traps are going to play hell with a low reflex/no evasion/low fort build, (aka; spellcasters). Or the golems of Glorag-Mur for a close-to-pure rogue. A party to cover each others weak points is almost necessary at the approrpriate level, for some players

-Yes, I don't have to worry about other party members or having to wait for them to rest. I DO have to worry about getting mobbed, dying because I rolled a 1 on my will save (against a 14 DC!) , etc. A lot of things that would be "inconvinent" with a party turn into "lol ur dead" rather quickly.

That said, soloing is just my preference, looong before writs were even a thing. Horray for characters actively trying to hide how strong/weak they actually are.

Not once did levels really ever stop me from grouping up for writs, though. Usually you could gauge what level people were based on what writs they were taking. There was only ONE time I can remember partying for writs went bad, and that was less of a level issue and more of a "he's an archer that keeps running ahead and I have to save him every time" issue. From my experience, and what i've seen, most parties that get together are more than willing to discuss what is/isnt viable for them ICly, so...not sure what the issue is?

Edit: There are certainly some writs that get used more than others, i've noticed, but thats less of a ooc/what level are you issue than "yeah, we're not walking 30 minutes out to get slaughtered by near-epic level monsters when something closer, easier, with a similar payout is nearby"

[JediMindTrix]

I used to like solo grinding a lot. I still do, and its' the optimal way to make some $$. But I don't get from 3 - 30 in 3 weeks - a month by going it alone.

Actually, doing nothing is the least optimal xp path.

Sounds like you have some experience on the matter.

[Wrips]

I used to like solo grinding a lot. I still do, and its' the optimal way to make some $$. But I don't get from 3 - 30 in 3 weeks - a month by going it alone.

Actually, doing nothing is the least optimal xp path.

Sounds like you have some experience on the matter.

Naturally. I usually don't comment on subjects I'm not familiar with.

[R0GUE]

But it's not just solo grinders alone who have the capacity to skip writs, only parties with people that have characters of widely varying level... which should be a pretty rare occurrence, right? I can count the amount of times I've been in parties like that (without DM involvement) on a hand. People who are within range of the writ can do it just fine, I have been playing around with the new change recently and haven't found much in the way of the newfound difficulty I keep reading about. I don't get it.

I can tell you this is not my experience. 90% of the time I try to organize and/or join a writ party, there is someone overlevelled or underlevelled according to the new system. It used to be it wasn't a big deal, but now it is.

And by "big deal" I mean: now party has to break up, we all have to search for a replacement, or if I'm the oddball who is out of level range, I have to go back to searching for a new party, meanwhile I am 1.5 hours into my 3 hour play window for the evening.

[Fionn]

Would it be more immersive if instead a newbie had to grind the same goblin king 10 times instead of coming back to the dungeon once or twice?

Ideally, there's a story arc for every PC that never repeats. I've not found the NWScript command for that yet

I'm fairly new to the server, so I've never had to solo grind as the only way. I found writs were an easy intro to other players in Skal and outside the Nomad. It was pretty easy to find a group or at least a twosome. Sometimes the mob XP suffered because the other player was significantly higher. They would usually note IC that I wouldn't 'learn' much with them killing all the Kobolds or whatnot. Sometimes we'd group, sometimes I'd look for someone my level.

Now I can't choose to group with someone 3 levels above me if I'm at the top of the scale. Worse, I have to metagame to ask their level as there is no IC way for me to determine if the writ allows them to help, and nobody has memorized the level range for writs they can help with. I've seen my ability to find a pickup group drop drastically since this change went in.

If the level restrictions stay, I'd like to suggest an onUse feature for the writ to determine that latter part. Better yet, to return the list of PCs in sight that "look like they can handle this task". This would obviously be useable to determine PC level, so it would need a -writ command to turn off this information for folks that care.

[yellowcateyes]

If the level restrictions stay, I'd like to suggest an onUse feature for the writ to determine that latter part. Better yet, to return the list of PCs in sight that "look like they can handle this task". This would obviously be useable to determine PC level, so it would need a -writ command to turn off this information for folks that care.

Have you tried right-click examining your writ item?

[Dinosaur Space Program]

So I am going to poke my head into this thread real fast since there are a lot of assumptions flying around again. This topic over the course of three threads seems to draw them and it is finally to the point I feel like I should say something.

People seem to have this idea that the Writ system was a collaborative effort and had only not existed prior due to assorted circumstances and design decisions.

Perhaps this is showing my hand a little here, but the Writ system came into being through the specific request that something questing related be made and that project was pitched to yellowcateyes to design and implement as they thought fit.

And thus was the original system born. The same system you praise so highly and is so beloved.. was the project of a single person. The same person who has put in countless hours expanding it, writing for it, troubleshooting issues constantly for it and made it accessible to players across the entire spectrum of the server.

While this shines the spotlight very distinctly on yellowcateyes when it comes to the Writ system's future and ongoing development, it also clears up basically 20 some posts from assorted threads at this point that were going on about 'design decisions of the dev crew' and other assumptions that just don't match up with reality.

Give credit where credit is due folks. And understand that wild accusations and assumptions aren't going to get you very far when it comes to the subject. Especially as YCE painstakingly goes through all these threads looking for constructive feedback that might be implemented if it works within the design framework he is using. See: template updates.

I have been reading through all these threads to see if I catch anything constructive of use myself, so I am familiar with the tone and wording used to demand not only answers, but compliance with how people say the Writ system was designed to be and how it was made for A, B, or C purpose.

Frankly, none of those assumptions or calls are correct. But it has been very hard to see a place to get in a word edgewise when even YCE's feedback in these threads has been dismissed and there has been calls for 'the real dev team' to weigh in.

So let's try this again.

There are reasons people hate the new level restrictions on Writs. There are those that see no issue with it or never truly encountered the problem. I think both of these viewpoints are valid.

However, one of these viewpoints work with the system currently, which was changed to be what it was to keep exploitation from happening. Just like muling filters (which honestly are just as OOC if you want to draw lines on things), just like item restrictions on weapons (oh no! The handle is covered in butter! I can't use this until I am level 15!), and just like a number of other imposed mechanical restrictions to keep the server from going off the rails in one way or another.

We have learned to work with all of those things, which admittedly have more of an impact then just deciding to adventure normally because your level spread is too steep for the Writ in hand. The Writs themselves actually give plenty of RP room, in my personal experience as well as on paper, to find people who can do the same quests as you. But I can see where issues arise, especially in epic areas.

Perhaps this might change. But the way this thread has gone about it not once but three times, is not going to see that change happen. Yes, people are passionate. That's great! But sometimes you need to let the hackles down enough to look at the big picture and problem solve with a cooler head.

The Writ system is a work in progress from one very talented person. Dismissing him and generally not giving him feedback he can use isn't going to help anything. The change was made for a distinct reason, let's work within the bounds of that change to make it Better. Not say it has to be taken out entirely.

So let's try this again.

[Wings of Peace]

Not to detract too much from what's currently being discussed but writs in general are a bit beyond the scope of what I wanted to talk about in this particular thread. The counter argument to my OP that came up, and seemed reasonable, was that people are capable of coming up with explanations IC for why to divide a mismatched level party. This is true but a bit different than the point I'm making which is that, at present, most of the writ parties I've been participating in post-change have had a moment where the party gets partially organized via tells which used to be a much rarer occurrence in my experience.

For clarity, I'm not saying that it's impossible to rp around the current system or that the change it outright bad for rp. But at present the change seems like it's encouraging heavily OOC behavior and while I realize the easy answer is "well those people are just bad at rp" this doesn't really change the observation that the altered writ system, in its current form, has led to that increase in OOC behavior. I don't have a perfect solution for what might change that, but that's why I wanted to submit the feedback to see if other people had been witnessing the same or felt similarly.

Edit: I realize that the reason a lot of the feedback is more generally about writs is because my title for the thread was fairly general.

[Dr_Hazard89]

Not to detract too much from what's currently being discussed but writs in general are a bit beyond the scope of what I wanted to talk about in this particular thread. The counter argument to my OP that came up, and seemed reasonable, was that people are capable of coming up with explanations IC for why to divide a mismatched level party. This is true but a bit different than the point I'm making which is that, at present, most of the writ parties I've been participating in post-change have had a moment where the party gets partially organized via tells which used to be a much rarer occurrence in my experience.

For clarity, I'm not saying that it's impossible to rp around the current system or that the change it outright bad for rp. But at present the change seems like it's encouraging heavily OOC behavior and while I realize the easy answer is "well those people are just bad at rp" this doesn't really change the observation that the altered writ system, in its current form, has led to that increase in OOC behavior. I don't have a perfect solution for what might change that, but that's why I wanted to submit the feedback to see if other people had been witnessing the same or felt similarly.

Edit: I realize that the reason a lot of the feedback is more generally about writs is because my title for the thread was fairly general.

I have very much been witnessing the same and feel similarly.

[Fionn]

Have you tried right-click examining your writ item?

That doesn't tell me if the PCs in front of me can partake, nor will most of them know if they're in range for a particular writ. This forces me to use tells to everyone to determine level range before we group, or wait for the 'too high' message when we kill the first mob.

[Liareth]

Maybe add an on-use to the writ item or a console command that tells you if your party can do the writ with their level spread? Or even just show it every time someone joins the party. That would cut the need for tells.

[Rwby]

Maybe add an on-use to the writ item or a console command that tells you if your party can do the writ with their level spread? Or even just show it every time someone joins the party. That would cut the need for tells.

That seems awkward.

'Sure join us for this adventure!'

...
...
...

'On second thoughts, bugger off.'

[Nitro]

Better knowing when forming a party than when you're already 20 minutes into adventure on the other side of the isle and getting no XP.

[Ork]

Like ..this isn't hard. If you're the higher level - you bow out. You know you're a higher level because chances are you've already done that writ and know if you're above or at that level to be successful.

James, L16 WM "Lo there, where are you off to?"
Aaron, L4 Fighter "We arm ourselves to slaughter kobolds, are you interested in joining with?"
James, L16 WM "Kobold? I'd rather not sully my blade on such meager foe."

Not awkward at all.

[rookie]

Maybe add an on-use to the writ item or a console command that tells you if your party can do the writ with their level spread? Or even just show it every time someone joins the party. That would cut the need for tells.

On-join would be nice, would also handle people that have no-tells on when they join and immediately see the message along with everyone else in the party.

[msterswrdsmn]

I don't really think the level difference itself is the issue. Kinda. It's more like, "I can see the points people are trying to make, but its not a new issue". Your level ALWAYS has had some ooc influence on what you can/can't do. Level 4? Can't even hold a damask weapon without dropping it! Just made level 10? Congrats! You're just strong enough to get stomped by that level 30 over there and everyone knows it! Just leveled to the point where you can cast 5th level spells? Yeah, stop calling yourself an archmage.

Players have always worked around these issues. "I haven't had the proper training yet" ,"i've only mastered spells up to the sixth circle", etc.

These instances were pretty much limited to a one person vs one person situation, though. The issue, I guess from the feedback, is that now its entire groups of people, some of which can reach up to something like 6 people from what I remember. This, again, isn't a NEW issue, as the same thing happened when people were looking for parties before hunting before writs. Its probably more pronounced, though, as writs=encourage partying, and once someone finds a group already preparing, its easier to jump on the bandwagon.

Theres nothing really that can fix it, aside from people properly judging the writ level/xp payout and being responsible enough to say "nope, not for me" when appropriate. You COULD rewrite the writ system, but....the main issue has been around for YEARS and probably isn't going anywhere.

If anything, writs have helped this issue somewhat, as you're going to get that adventure xp/reward xp regardless as long as you properly cleared the requirements, so you're getting SOMETHING out of it, even if its at the very end.

[WinkinBlinkin]

I don't know if the on join writ info would work though - lots of people might have multiple writs and how would the partying mechanic know which one you were heading to complete? Some people might not have the writ at all, and just be along for the ride. With a group of five people, you could end up severely spammed if you got information about every writ every member of the party held. The first person in the group would get the info from person 2, 3, 4 and 5, who each could have other writs. That's a lot of notices.