Arelith

I think there's one other balance aspect that people forget. In order for a Pseudodragon to spot the stealther, AND the caster to know about it, the caster has to be possessing the familiar, which makes them vulnerable to attack, and incapable of casting spells. Just having a Pseudodragon put, does not grant the caster TS, as you are not revealed to the whole party.

WinkinBlinkin wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:46 pm The debate isn't just about rogues vs mages in PvP. Spying generates lots of rp. No-one should have an effort free, permanent duration option that makes them immune to being spied upon.

It's hardly effort free when Rogues (who get free movement speed nowdays) can just move around a corner, pillar or other LoS blocking environment when they see the familiar being summoned. And it's not really permanent either when you'll only be aware of the spy when possessing your familiar which will not be the case 98% of the time.

bad rogues get caught
good rogues don't

only be aware of the spy when possessing your familiar which will not be the case 98% of the time.

bad rogues get caught
good rogues don't

So, lemme get this straight: The pseudodragon TS is
1. Not effective 98% of the time
2. Easy to get around (LoS breaks etc)
3. Only dangerous for 'bad rogues' even given those things
but also
4. Such a powerful, good, and necessary ability that we've got a two page argument with a couple really passionate people who both argue the three above and insist it needs to stay for the integrity of the mage classes.

:gilescoreythinkingemoji:

Seems kind of like either 1-3 is true (It's useless to the point of its removal not mattering) or 4 is true (it's an integral ability to the mage classes and gives them a certain amount of power, narrative or otherwise)? Certainly not both.

Gotta agree with the fine gentleman above me.

git gud

I'd like to point out that Pseudodragons also need to make a spot check to see those stealthed, so they can actually MISS someone if their state is higher.

I learned this recently when I had to use Astra's to see who was outside the tower.

Atlantahammy wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:33 pm I'd like to point out that Pseudodragons also need to make a spot check to see those stealthed, so they can actually MISS someone if their state is higher.

I learned this recently when I had to use Astra's to see who was outside the tower.

What? No. That's not true at all.
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Pseudodragon
"Has true seeing"
They will see everyone in their LoS, be they stealthed or otherwise, but the summoner will only be aware for as long as they are possessing the Pseudodragon while it is observing the stealther in the pseudodragons LoS. Otherwise the summoner can't see anything.

Nitro wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Atlantahammy wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:33 pm I'd like to point out that Pseudodragons also need to make a spot check to see those stealthed, so they can actually MISS someone if their state is higher.

I learned this recently when I had to use Astra's to see who was outside the tower.

What? No. That's not true at all.
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Pseudodragon
"Has true seeing"
They will see everyone in their LoS, be they stealthed or otherwise, but the summoner will only be aware for as long as they are possessing the Pseudodragon while it is observing the stealther in the pseudodragons LoS. Otherwise the summoner can't see anything.

Mine failed a spot check, (Blue Text in the battle bar) sooo somethings changed or i glitched?

What happened was probably that your pseudodragon did a spot check VS hide/MS even though it can already see the target.

The real core argument is the mixed messaging involved in it.

What is the place of true sight?
According to the spell and its modifications on this server, it's intended to be a rare, short-lived effect that counters stealth.

According to the Pseudodragon, it's an ability that can be specced into with minimal class investment that counters stealth.

A mage who becomes aware of a stealthed character through their pseudo-dragon has a lot of options to deal with it and knock them out of stealth in the form of AoE spells.

I think something this server needs is a wider variety of powerful spot/listen items to incentivize specializing guard-type characters towards it. We have a huge variety of strong stealth bonus items and buffs, but not as much detection power.

It's an economy of choices that aren't well balanced against each other but we could open up more playstyles if we invested in it.

Atlantahammy wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:40 pm

Nitro wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:38 pm

Atlantahammy wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:33 pm I'd like to point out that Pseudodragons also need to make a spot check to see those stealthed, so they can actually MISS someone if their state is higher.

I learned this recently when I had to use Astra's to see who was outside the tower.

What? No. That's not true at all.
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Pseudodragon
"Has true seeing"
They will see everyone in their LoS, be they stealthed or otherwise, but the summoner will only be aware for as long as they are possessing the Pseudodragon while it is observing the stealther in the pseudodragons LoS. Otherwise the summoner can't see anything.

Mine failed a spot check, (Blue Text in the battle bar) sooo somethings changed or i glitched?

That has to have been a dm. That's not, at all, how NWN works. Spot checks not done via dm, module scripted effect, or dice bag are always invisible. Also they definitely have normal no rolls true sight.

The Greater Good wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:02 pm

Atlantahammy wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:40 pm

Nitro wrote: Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:38 pm
What? No. That's not true at all.
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Pseudodragon
"Has true seeing"
They will see everyone in their LoS, be they stealthed or otherwise, but the summoner will only be aware for as long as they are possessing the Pseudodragon while it is observing the stealther in the pseudodragons LoS. Otherwise the summoner can't see anything.

Mine failed a spot check, (Blue Text in the battle bar) sooo somethings changed or i glitched?

That has to have been a dm. That's not, at all, how NWN works. Spot checks not done via dm, module scripted effect, or dice bag are always invisible. Also they definitely have normal no rolls true sight.

Don't those normally come up in the normal text-log though?

Absolutely not. That'd be tantamount to the game announcing there's a stealther nearby. Nwn wiki is pretty good for this sort of thing.

Yeah, you will never have feedback in the log when a stealther is near, for two reasons, the first being its a dead give away if you suddenly start getting alerted to failed rolls, but probably the main one being, you roll spot vs their hide, and listen vs their MS every round. Two rolls every six seconds would get pretty spammy especially if there are multiple stealthers present.