Arelith

Hunter548 wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:04 pm

Rooshi49 http://forum.arelith.com/viewforum.php?f=18post_id=173857 wrote:Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:36 pm
You're assuming that everyone can do that much damage . . . which is wholefully untrue. Also you're assuming its always a 1v3, which isn't always the case. In fact that I would imagine that because someone can use a type of potion to survive at all against a 1v3 shows that its imbalanced, even if they're delaying the inevitable like TRM says.

If this is true, the problem is with the builds involved, not heal potions. There's nothing wrong with playing suboptimal builds, but let's not use them as the baseline for balance.

I'm not using sub-optimal builds as a baseline. . .

I did not advocate the use of that. But that doesn't mean it still doesn't happen, metagaming is against the rules too. As is being mean to people.

flower wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:10 pm

The Rambling Midget wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:30 pm I understand that, but my point is that it rarely puts you ahead. It's more like a liquid stasis field that allows you to keep yourself from dying, while others carry on the fight. If you're being double or triple teamed, all it does is delay the inevitable.

Shall i count for you the cost in real money i would get in work for time spent making all these hundreds of heal potions people keep talking about?

And that it delays inevitable? And? and what? If three people are unable to put single person down they deserve it.

I don't know why you're taking an argumentative tone.

You're agreeing with me.

Rooshi49 wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:11 pm

Hunter548 wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:04 pm

Rooshi49 http://forum.arelith.com/viewforum.php?f=18post_id=173857 wrote:Sun Nov 11, 2018 9:36 pm
You're assuming that everyone can do that much damage . . . which is wholefully untrue. Also you're assuming its always a 1v3, which isn't always the case. In fact that I would imagine that because someone can use a type of potion to survive at all against a 1v3 shows that its imbalanced, even if they're delaying the inevitable like TRM says.

If this is true, the problem is with the builds involved, not heal potions. There's nothing wrong with playing suboptimal builds, but let's not use them as the baseline for balance.

I'm not using sub-optimal builds as a baseline. . .

I don't know what the exact specifics are of the fight that prompted this thread, but if you have someone wailing on someone else while the second person just stands there drinking healing potions and actually gaining health in the process, either there's something wrong with the attacker's build or there's some other factor at play, whether that be the defender having unreasonablely high AC, some sort of absurd level difference, or form of hard counter involved (like a rogue trying to attack a PM).

Failing all of that, the person chain-drinking potions is just throwing them in the trash as they slowly die.

Cerk Evermoore wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:25 pm Yeah because folks have never been in a fight that involves them having to run from one zone to the other. Especially the folks who are quoting me in this thread.

There's a big difference between a fight spilling across multiple areas, and someone jumping across a transition multiple times to split up one half of a fight because they load faster.

No amount of heal potions is going to help you win a fight. It may prolong it, but it's not what decides who wins and who loses, but who's bank account is depleted. For as long as healer clerics can save people with raise dead and their other tools I'm going to be supportive of healing potions. It would be a huge balancing issue if the potions were nerfed, for example, and nothing was done about clerics who can single handedly save an entire party.

The day Arelith team decides to take a look on how healing works or should work in overall is the day something should be done about them.

Then again, it's really hard to balance something like this. Healing in general doesn't have same meaning with same characters. A palemaster can chug one potion throughout a five minute fight and be fine. It's not the same for each individual build. With how big of a freaking hassle is to make these things, as it is, I find them alright. Nothing makes me mad like having to resort to spamming heal potions just in order to survive/leave a fight. And nothing makes me happy like seeing someone desperately trying to win by using them over and over, only to lose in the end. It's a devil's bargain.

Tarkus the dog wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:47 am Then again, it's really hard to balance something like this. Healing in general doesn't have same meaning with same characters. A palemaster can chug one potion throughout a five minute fight and be fine. It's not the same for each individual build. With how big of a freaking hassle is to make these things, as it is, I find them alright. Nothing makes me mad like having to resort to spamming heal potions just in order to survive/leave a fight. And nothing makes me happy like seeing someone desperately trying to win by using them over and over, only to lose in the end. It's a devil's bargain.

Not to mention that as far as I’m aware there aren’t any actual metrics to track the use of heal potions and their overall impact on PvP combat. Without metrics, everything is anecdotal.

As someone playing an assassin.

Please, by all means... chug those pots.
You being flatfooted and dropping that imp expertise is music to my ears.

Hi there!

Is there an actual negative to nerfing the amount healed by Heal Potions? Because so far, all I heard is, that they apparently don't change the tide of battle any way, just delay impending defeat for as long as you have potions to chug and that they are not overpowered, because they cost a lot.

The first point is something that doesn't seem desirable at all, so if it supposedly doesn't change the outcome, what's the point? And the second point should never be a reason not to nerf something. It doesn't matter how expensive something is, if it is out of whack, there are plenty of bored epic characters on this server with deep war chests, who will have these things stockpiled by the hundreds.

That said, to me personally, they do seem unfair/imbalanced when used against classes who do not have infinite sources of damage, because as many others have said, it does become a war of attrition then and for their end, the only thing they must invest to win it, is gold.

They do have a fairly big use in PvE if your party lacks a healer, which is good because it means you're not forced to wait for a cleric or druid if you want to go adventuring and have the money to blow on a consumable to fill the role of a healer for you.

As for delaying the inevitable, plenty of other things do that too. Like a stack of heal kits +10 with a respectable heal skill. That can also be used to delay impending defeat, so it's not like heal potions are unique in this regard.

TimeAdept wrote: Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:16 pm
Incinerary Cloud, Mindfog, Cloudkill, Acid Fog, Web, all spells that perform CC w/o a save effect attached to them.

To be totally fair, the situation generally described is a rich epic with herbalism or herbalism friends that sits on 100-200 heal pots specifically for PvP, and can easily afford to chug 40 of them if it means winning a fight. This exists, but is a super tiny minority.

None of those are hard CC effects. None. That's all soft CC. Hard CC includes paralysis, grapples, petrifications, roots, and stuns. All of the fog spells are soft CC (i.e. slows), that do scarce little to truly inhibit an opponent.

The only one that can possibly be categorized as hard CC is Web, and web DOES have a reflex save. Freedom also mitigates it, and mundanes are extremely difficult for most casters to dispel.

Minority or not, it's still a problem. The fact it can be done is an issue. The fact it works is an issue. And it needs to be fixed.

A substantial percentage of the comments on this thread that stand against the proposition to have heal potions fixed with a cooldown or diminishing returns are founded in either ignorance or self-interest.

There is a large array of situations in which chugging heal pots DOES win you the fight in PvP. It isn't a blanket suicidal decision, else people wouldn't do it. I've witnessed a number of fights in which people were utterly demolished in PvP, but won due to the sheer disparity of what was in their inventory. They'd heal to full health from near death 5-6 times in a single fight + prayer for a 7th, and come out on top strictly due to the potions alone.

This is more so an issue for casters than anything else. In melee it's only a risky decision if you're a low AC build against a high AB build. If you're a high AC / tanky build it's perfectly viable and effective to chug heal pots. This is also a stalling tactic. In larger scale situations you can't always afford to sit there beating on the guy who effectively has 2k health because of his non-stop chugging of heal potions. You get flanked. You get targeted by his allies.

It -is- a problem. It's silly, and it genuinely should be fixed.

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 pmAll of the fog spells are soft CC (i.e. slows), that do scarce little to truly inhibit an opponent.

Yeah, I know this is off-topic to even comment but soft CCs make or break PvP encounters. If you think it does little to inhibit an opponent, you're probably doing it wrong.

Ork wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:20 pm

The Damned wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:12 pmAll of the fog spells are soft CC (i.e. slows), that do scarce little to truly inhibit an opponent.

Yeah, I know this is off-topic to even comment but soft CCs make or break PvP encounters. If you think it does little to inhibit an opponent, you're probably doing it wrong.

It takes 2-3 seconds or less to get out of a fog-spell, and AoEs cannot be stacked on this server. It's pitifully underwhelming, at best. You can't exactly "do it wrong". Pointing and clicking to aim an AoE isn't exactly difficult.

I mean, if you want to try your hand at beating a Paladin CoT with a glass cannon DC mage, and you think a single cloud spell is going to be the game-changer, be my guest in attempting it. But I can tell you well ahead of time you're going to have a very sad time.

It's also worth noting that persistent AoEs knock casters out of gsanc each time there's a damage proc or initiative roll. There's a slew of reasons why this is not only ineffective, but simply not a wise decision to make.

You do know that AoEs CAN be stacked, and that only AoEs of the same type are overridden, right?

Freedom is breachable

also I'd think the more prepared person should have an advantage. That makes sense, right? It's not like this is spamming gresto, time stop, or gsanc.

Spamming heal pots has some serious disadvantages, and it just sounds like people aren't taking advantage of them

You're losing tumble, you're losing dodge ac, losing dex ac (depending on build), losing imp expertise. That can be anywhere from 20-40ish AC. That's a lot.

Regarding wizards, this is what save or die spells are for, or killing people with time stop (because it should be used as a finisher, not an opener). If the enemy uses heal pots to outlast your entire arsenal, you simply cannot say that you played all your cards right. You didn't

Ork wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:26 pm You do know that AoEs CAN be stacked, and that only AoEs of the same type are overridden, right?

I'm distinctly aware of that, yes. It's still weak and underwhelming. A competent player with high saves isn't going to be inhibited or killed by a caster that only has soft CC in his arsenal. And even if they have hard CC, that's the whole point of saves. To be immune to virtually every hard CC effect there is.

sad_zav wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:29 pm Regarding wizards, this is what save or die spells are for, or killing people with time stop (because it should be used as a finisher, not an opener). If the enemy uses heal pots to outlast your entire arsenal, you simply cannot say that you played all your cards right. You didn't

Save or die spells literally only work against players who are undergeared, incompetent, or using non-powerbuilds. It certainly won't work against well built Paladins, CoTs, Barbarians, or Blackguards. You can try using a death-spell against a competent player in PvP. And they're probably going to laugh at you.

sad_zav wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:29 pm Freedom is breachable
Spamming heal pots has some serious disadvantages, and it just sounds like people aren't taking advantage of them

You're losing tumble, you're losing dodge ac, losing dex ac (depending on build), losing imp expertise. That can be anywhere from 20-40ish AC. That's a lot.

Freedom may be breachable, but you're still going to have soft cc at minimum to try and inhibit your target. As I stated before - AC loss is utterly irrelevant against a caster. No caster (short of one that specializes in using touch attacks) is going to turn the table and win the fight because you dropped improved expertise or went flat footed. A melee MIGHT.

You can drink two potions per round, at 200 health per 6 seconds. Someone would have to be putting out 200+ damage per round and THEN some to get a surplus that counters the rate at which you're healing, and that's assuming they are not interrupted, required to reposition, rebuff, or attend to anything else in the fight.

Dex builds won't be putting out that kind of DPS unless your AC is utterly atrocious. And most dex builds have horrid AB, particularly given that many people on this server opt to take +3/4 AB classes throughout the entirety of their pre-epic progression.

Strength builds may hit with some of the attacks in their attack sequence, but they may also miss plenty. 200 health a round is immense. It is not insignificant, and -many- builds can afford to use that round for 200 HP and have it end up as a net-win, as an investment.

The arguments against either giving a cooldown or diminishing returns to heal potions on this thread, as I stated before, are terribly weak, and not founded in much more than very narrow views of combat that completely ignore the dozens of factors at play in PvP.

Casters are using summons, from elementals, undeads, up to dragon knights. Saying loss of AC is irrelevant for caster is awknard in this light. Loosing AC versus EDK or vampires can mean quick death. Standing and drinking potions while you loose constitution to cloud is also going to kill you.

PVP of two competent people playing two equally geared up characters is not going to be decided by heal potion.

Edit: and if someone took sub optiomal build, sorry but you cannot base balance on that.

flower wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:52 pm Casters are using summons, from elementals, undeads, up to dragon knights. Saying loss of AC is irrelevant for caster is awknard in this light. Loosing AC versus EDK or vampires can mean quick death. Standing and drinking potions while you loose constitution to cloud is also going to kill you.

PVP of two competent people playing two equally geared up characters is not going to be decided by heal potion.

There's three spells in the game that can all immediately remove those summons from the equation with ease. Dismissal, Banishment, and Word of Faith. All of them are easily accessible via UMD.

A dragon isn't going to put out 200+ damage per round. Vampires -might-, but if someone starts healing and doesn't make an effort to remove those from the equation before doing so, they deserve their death. But this demands that no other characters are present for the combat to pull the aggro from the vampires, and it also demands that if there -are- others who might pre-occupy their attention, that you micromanage them with the player tool for specific targetting.

It's worth noting I've personally witnessed combat in which three melee builds sat there chugging heal potions for a full four rounds against casters, and won -strictly- due to that alone.

PvP very often involves far more than just two people. As I said before, there's much more to the equation. It's not always a simplistic 1v1 fight. And there's still many casters that don't opt for Conjuration as a route because Conjuration is more oriented towards benefits in PvE than PvP. It cannot be relied upon, and that still leaves a huge gap and window that disregards how effective heal-pot chugging is against any caster that -doesn't- have conjuration, and still demands that we only consider 1v1 scenarios.

TLDR: It doesn't resolve the problem.

flower wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:52 pm Casters are using summons, from elementals, undeads, up to dragon knights. Saying loss of AC is irrelevant for caster is awknard in this light. Loosing AC versus EDK or vampires can mean quick death. Standing and drinking potions while you loose constitution to cloud is also going to kill you.

PVP of two competent people playing two equally geared up characters is not going to be decided by heal potion.

Edit: and if someone took sub optiomal build, sorry but you cannot base balance on that.

that potion 'could' actualy make all the difrence.

I do believe it should not be the case that healing potions replace a healing cleric.

So a 1 round cd on heal kits and potions dont sound wierd to me at all.
And lets be honest here...who can drink 2 bottles in 6 seconds mid fight ;p

a lot of goal posts are being moved here

other people getting the aggro of your vampires? micro-managing them?

really?

talk about weak arguments

sad_zav wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:07 pm a lot of goal posts are being moved here

other people getting the aggro of your vampires? micro-managing them?

really?

talk about weak arguments

If you think those aren't factors that surround the usage of summons in PvP, I don't know what to tell you. They're relevant. They have impact, and they matter.

As does the prospective potential of someone banishing, dismissing, or hitting them with WoF.

The Damned, so you basically tell us 3 meelers are supposed to die to caster and it is unfair to just endure the casters spells?

All these stories supposed to prove how heal potion is broken are anecdots. Yes, heal potion can make difference. But every other single scroll or potion used in right moment can make same impact. And yes, often healing potions wont save you. It is as simple as it is

Managing your pets is point and click man. If you can't do that, healing pots are the least of your concerns

and there's a lot of ways to mitigate your mummies getting wof'd. Same for your edk

It's almost like there are counters in a wizard or spellcasters arsenal to harass heal pot spammers. And subsequent counters against those counters in the enemy's arsenal. A balanced amount of counters, you might say?