Arelith

I have seen paladins outight lie, ignore laws they swore to uphold.

No investigations, slander, are extreme dangers and menaces to society. Requesting trials and then not following through on their sentencing.

Supporting blatantly tyrannical governments, supporting assassins, allowing their underlings to work with underdarkers.

How it is acceptable for them to do things like this with no repercussion is beyond me.

The argument it doesnt violate their holy oaths is still a significant stretch to me. They act as chaotic despots using any means to acheive their objectives even if it is vastly more evil than what it is they are trying to combat

Somehow I cannot imagine how for a mere peasant a paladin who fights witches, burns warlocks who can abuse his children in some dark rite, hammers evil priests who bring plague, death and undead (bad for crops), as a criminal. It totally gives no sense.

if you believe that that's what paladins are doing, report it.

due process is also an enormous luxury in this setting. don't expect it to be the norm.

and don't expect rulings to be adhered to when new evidence is presented and subsequently ignored, and when the judges are discovered to be staging coups.

paladins respect LEGITIMATE authority. they value JUST laws.

You are splitting hairs here, define legitimate authority.

that's not splitting hairs at all. i just said what made said authority illegitimate.

i know what instance you're referencing; you're not being subtle. if you want to actually hash this out, you can talk to me personally. i am easy to find on discord, too (and prefer to talk via it, too).

you also shouldn't come to so many (wrong) conclusions without talking to the party you're so willing to privately disparage. just my advice to you.

One thing to keep in mind, that there can be conflict between what paladin believes is truth and what is reality. He can believe the mayor is corrupted swine who shields villains but reality can be the mayor is just person with bad social outlook but otherwise a honest and honorable man. But paladin can believe some rumours spread out and thus not accept him as authority.

Same he can believe some guy is honest and honorable man while the culprit is in fact some hidden cultist of evil deity doing his behind agenda and manipulating paladin to get rid of his enemies (and meanwhile, to discredit himself in the process).

1: Compassion does not always mean you get away with a slap on the wrist. Compassion is to have sympathy and concern for others- but no matter how sympathetic you are to that starving man with a knife, it's still your job stop him if he robs a woman with a knife when you're a paladin, and that might include putting an arrow in his skull if he doesn't let the woman go.

2: The biggest problem paladins face is the "what's that you're doing over there with a character that isn't mine?" dilemma. Which is to say that everyone tries to be a DM when they aren't as soon as they hear there is a paladin within five zones of them that sneezed sideways on a goblin. No. It's not your business how they're doing it. Go away.

Seriously. Unless this paladin is interacting with you in a way that clearly violates some sort of paladin oath (and if you're going to complain about this, you OWE the other player due research into their paladin's god and important values or you're literally just complaining to complain) AND breaks your immersion/the rules, mind your own business (unless you're in an open discussion for feedback/input). For anything else, send the DM's a report and remember it's not your job to manage other peoples' characters- it's only your job to manage how your character reacts to others.

Not really a place to bring up in character things in a feedback thread, And a "coup" according to one side

Paladins not respecting laws, threatening people, torturing, assaulting folk for having different views not even necessarily following an "evil god"

Does a Paladin having their own perview on somebody, make them right in killing them, simply for being a Paladin?

What if that person is an innocent and they turned their zeoletry upon an undeserving?

There is an excellent piece of writing that I very much enjoy, that is what I believe a Paladin should strive for, Any Paladin.
https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Powder_Keg_of_Justice
(Warning bad Language)


And Personally I'm against the excuse of "But my Paladin is different because XYZ", Your still a Paladin, a Holy warrior of justice and Good. And should be held to that standard, Do something evil? Repeatedly skirt the line and cross it into being chaotic?

Well then you should not be a Paladin. Sure different gods might hold to slightly different standards, But if you aint' Good, and you aint' Lawful, Then lo' and behold, You should be something other than a Paladin

Paladins I've noticed tend to get it rough. I've been on a server where rumor-mongering about paladins and their doings was rampant. Keep in mind that a player may not have full context on another character's actions, so that should be kept in mind. And if there's a gross violation, it can be sent to a DM. I'd also advise to be easy on the rumor-mill, since sometimes it does create stories that become quite inaccurate.

Now, for paladins themselves, they still have it pretty rough. Keep in mind that for pen and paper settings, paladins have a detect evil ability, which can be used to help determine who can be trusted and who is in need of smiting, and while not completely reliable, it is a pretty good indicator. In our setting, the ability is so unreliable that it's barely worth mentioning. So paladins have to determine the truth of the motives of those around them using their own abilities. Some cases are obvious, but many are not. Paladins have to be careful of being either too merciful or too wrathful. If they are too nice, then they might not be upholding their obligations to fight evil. If they're too wrathful, then they could be bringing down vengeance upon those who are not guilty. Even in dealing with Underdarkers, not all of them are evil, so while a paladin would be in their rights to assume that many are, it's fine for them to work with and be friendly with ones that they know are not evil. Given how detect evil doesn't work though they should probably get some leniency in such matters, save obvious gross violations. (Like killing someone for being saved by a monster character). I've had some fun interactions with paladins on my kobold before, though I do agree most should not be in a rush to be friendly to every one they meet.

One other thing to consider is also that for paladins, as a divine class, are capable of falling from grace. It may not necessarily be a bad thing for the server if such a thing happens, as it could be a nice avenue for redemption/corruption RP.

i agree. in character things shouldn't be brought up. that's why i addressed it and said to take it to PMs when it was.

i haven't seen paladins do all of these horrible things. the "crime" i've seen paladins most frequently be guilty of is apathy and complacency. if anything, i actually think they should be attacking MORE people.

i also have a feeling that people in this thread can't even agree on what "good" is. for example, i think killing slaves is bad.

I would agree that in most cases, paladins should be looking to free slaves rather than kill them. If a slave however, is actively helping their masters and quite evil themselves, doing terrible deeds as a willing slave, etc, then it would probably be OK for a paladin to smite them.

As with many things, there are cases and circumstances that may change the best course of action greatly.

Funnily enough I agree, Killing unwilling non-monstrous is bad

Monstrous slaves, Willing slaves, outright evil Slaves should be fine to kill

And I disagree with having Paladins attack more people, There's enough PvP on the server already, Being a Paladin or any class should not give you a reason or excuse to look for, nor engage in PvP without a proper RP reason beyond "Your evil, Im good, Smite"

Good like most things is subjective and plagued by modern day idealisms, and a strange trend of Redemption arcs from what I've seen so far on Arelith

My views on Good personally
A Good person is willing to put themselves in harms way for others, To give up parts of themselves to help others, Being Selfless
A good person will not go out of their way to insult, berate, bully or harras others, A good person will not harm an innocent
Good, implies that a person is Altruistic and has a respect for life and others.

Thats what Good is to me, Lawful will have to wait for me to type up another time

Mythic wrote: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:27 pm Funnily enough I agree, Killing unwilling non-monstrous is bad

Monstrous slaves, Willing slaves, outright evil Slaves should be fine to kill

And I disagree with having Paladins attack more people, There's enough PvP on the server already, Being a Paladin or any class should not give you a reason or excuse to look for, nor engage in PvP without a proper RP reason beyond "Your evil, Im good, Smite"

Good like most things is subjective and plagued by modern day idealisms, and a strange trend of Redemption arcs from what I've seen so far on Arelith

My views on Good personally
A Good person is willing to put themselves in harms way for others, To give up parts of themselves to help others, Being Selfless
A good person will not go out of their way to insult, berate, bully or harras others, A good person will not harm an innocent
Good, implies that a person is Altruistic and has a respect for life and others.

Thats what Good is to me, Lawful will have to wait for me to type up another time

Then majority of population across Arelith is non good, including dwarves, elves….all..haha.

Eh, in each culture they have their own "good"

For dwarves, that would more likely be pitching in to their hold and aiding their dwarvern brethren. being productive and such. Being willing to help others with their task or duty.

Not sure for elves tbh

the paladin class lends itself to confrontation, which often turns into pvp. RP can happen before PvP; the two are not mutually exclusive. paladins are holy warriors, not socialites. you totally SHOULD be looking for conflict. that's your job.

a lot of people also equate bullying and berating with simply stating what they believe to be truth. paladins are unmerciful towards what they deem to be evil. and idk about you, but i'd way rather someone yell at me than kill me. a paladin engaging in such is likely trying to avoid taking it to pvp.

Mythic wrote: Thu Nov 22, 2018 8:50 pm Eh, in each culture they have their own "good"

For dwarves, that would more likely be pitching in to their hold and aiding their dwarvern brethren. being productive and such. Being willing to help others with their task or duty.

Not sure for elves tbh

The text failed to be bold:

A good person will not go out of their way to insult, berate, bully or harras others, A good person will not harm an innocent.


80% of characters spits out insults daily at others who do not comply with them. Would harrass others if They do something They do not approve of….

So its fine for a Paladin to Bully and Berate whoever they like, so long as they dont kill them?

I strongly disagree, in that case your using being a Paladin, and "My divine power" as an excuse for being able to do just that, Bully and Berate but not kill.

Being a hostile bully Vs being a Hostile warrior of Justice and Good are far cries from one another.


You are right there as well Flower, But again. Going out of your way to instigate that vs being in a conversation and it devolves into it are two different things generally

so you're advocating for paladins to kill more people, got it

sad_zav wrote: Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:04 pm so you're advocating for paladins to kill more people, got it

unlike real life, FR has actual manifestations of concepts like justice, truth, good, evil, etc. that a paladin thinks "my god grants me his blessings still, so i cannot be wrong" makes total sense. what better justification for one's actions than divine approval?

i haven't seen paladins do all of these horrible things. the "crime" i've seen paladins most frequently be guilty of is apathy and complacency. if anything, i actually think they should be attacking MORE people.

the paladin class lends itself to confrontation, which often turns into pvp. RP can happen before PvP; the two are not mutually exclusive. paladins are holy warriors, not socialites. you totally SHOULD be looking for conflict. that's your job.

a lot of people also equate bullying and berating with simply stating what they believe to be truth. paladins are unmerciful towards what they deem to be evil. and idk about you, but i'd way rather someone yell at me than kill me. a paladin engaging in such is likely trying to avoid taking it to pvp.

On the contrary, you seem to be under the impression that Paladin's should go out of their way to antagonize people to force PvP on them.

Where does the advocating that Paladin's should be doing more killing vs still being a decent person when you have nothing more than suspicion?

i'm not trying to be mean but i cannot decipher what you are saying

Sorry, let me be more clear.

You've literally been advocating that Paladin's should be actively seeking and engaging in PvP.

To take someone saying that, you can't belittle, insult and antagonize someone with emotes is a better alternative then turning it into an argument that they are supporting PvP is not at all what they are trying to convey.

It really does seem that your mindset is that, if I continuously insult them enough, they will snap and try to attack me then I am justified in killing them. It seems to me, a violation of the being nice.

You don't have to pretend to like them, but there are options that don't involve openly hurling insults.

i said that the paladin class lends itself towards confrontation and that it OFTEN leads to PvP. they have strict codes. if a paladin confronts you for having your fiend out and you go "nah", there's really not many options that can take.

you're trying to make this look worse than it is. I don't know if that's intentional or not. people like to hold attacking first against paladins, so i'm going to spin that back on you. if you attack first over words, then are you in the right?

and for the record, i NEVER said or even implied that a paladin should insult someone until they break. i actually said that a paladin engaging in discourse at all is often them trying to NOT pvp you.

Maybe I am not understanding.. but you have literally said that

*i haven't seen paladins do all of these horrible things. the "crime" i've seen paladins most frequently be guilty of is apathy and complacency. if anything, i actually think they should be attacking MORE people.*


How is this not literally advocating for more PvP?

And again, you've said that the alternative to hurling insults and such is PvP.


Re: Paladins and Alignment
Post by Mythic » 22 Nov 2018 20:59

So its fine for a Paladin to Bully and Berate whoever they like, so long as they dont kill them?

I strongly disagree, in that case your using being a Paladin, and "My divine power" as an excuse for being able to do just that, Bully and Berate but not kill.

Being a hostile bully Vs being a Hostile warrior of Justice and Good are far cries from one another.


You are right there as well Flower, But again. Going out of your way to instigate that vs being in a conversation and it devolves into it are two different things generally

Re: Paladins and Alignment
Post by sad_zav » 22 Nov 2018 21:04

so you're advocating for paladins to kill more people, got it

Re: Paladins and Alignment
Unread post by sad_zav » 22 Nov 2018 22:07

i said that the paladin class lends itself towards confrontation and that it OFTEN leads to PvP. they have strict codes. if a paladin confronts you for having your fiend out and you go "nah", there's really not many options that can take.

and that's because there's cannibals, necromancers, warlocks, assassins, etc all walking around and they're, for whatever reason, accepted by a great deal of PCs. they do this openly.

this is because"
1, there hasn't been much in the way of ramifications for being evil

2, because a lot of people think, for whatever reason, their "good" characters doing bad things are not evil

3, because so many people ooc are afraid of conflict despite this being a conflict driven server

4, a lot of people don't think conflict RP is worth it because of the mud-slinging that'll occur OOC.

heroes are only as interesting as their villains. if the villains are more nuanced, so to will the heroes be. i've had a ton of chances to kill people on peregrine and I don't. i've engaged in PvP before but let the losing party flee. these aren't "no rp bash" instances that people like to come up with. i've had PvP that, believe it or not, satisfied both parties.

but when you're going to do blatantly evil things and then be shocked when someone with conviction actually shows up and does something about it, that's on you.