Regarding Skaljard pvp counter/writ system update

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

viewtopic.php?f=15&p=175231#p175231

Seems like a solution that might actually help. Though i'd add the Anundor slum portal to the list too, and maybe some others. Creating physical distance between surface and the UD by limiting ability to portal in with ease would make UD -> Surface, or Surface -> Raids alot harder to pull off, and create predictability in what direction they can come from.

[Nymann]

From what i understand this server is build around conflict as its D&D , but we are all free to play how and what we want with in the server lore and rules.

Its up to every one of us to play what we like to play and what is fun for you may not be fun to me and the other way around aswel , nothing wrong with that.

So 40% (at least - from what I´ve seen of people participating ind discord chat) of the surface should just quit playing the server because we don´t find it fun constantly thrown upon us... That is just another word for enforced RP which is against the "Be nice rule".

Alright, have fun with those 60% who... have very few left to RP with to actually start something ,because rest is just gone...

[Sailormoon~s No1 Fan]

I’m more concerned with the message this update sends then the update itself. Let’s not become a social server, we already have way too many sim players.

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

From what i understand this server is build around conflict as its D&D , but we are all free to play how and what we want with in the server lore and rules.

Its up to every one of us to play what we like to play and what is fun for you may not be fun to me and the other way around aswel , nothing wrong with that.

So 40% (at least - from what I´ve seen of people participating ind discord chat) of the surface should just quit playing the server because we don´t find it fun constantly thrown upon us... That is just another word for enforced RP which is against the "Be nice rule".

Alright, have fun with those 60% who... have very few left to RP with to actually start something ,because rest is just gone...

Short of requiring ooc concent for pvp, to ensure both parties feel conflict has escalated to where its meritted, there will always be characters/factions/settlements that threaten characters/factions/settlements, and players will have no choice but to deal with it one way or another. And that includes the threat of pvp.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I am curious about what the information means, pvp involving death? Does accidentally knocking down a team mate count? Or subdualing someone or killing a transformed werewolf? Just curious what counts as a pvp encounter in the stats.

[The GrumpyCat]

Keeping in mind I'm only a DM, and not Admin or anything - two things to consider.

1) This is a test. A tryout. We'll see how (if) it works, and then come to further conclusions. I very much doubt it'll be moved to mainland Arelith for some time yet, if it ever is.

2) I consider it highly unlikely that even IF such a system is embraced on mainland arelith, that it'll be done so in the same form, for many of the reasons listed already. Up to and including
*Doesn't account for people who don't do writs anyway due to over leveling.
*Doesn't account for mass pvp.
*Numbers would need to be rejigged and shifted to at once help provide a dissinsentive, without making winning pvp a huge 'punishment.'

By all means keep putting your thoughts down here, but as I said we're well awear that there are issues here that need to be balenced, and I doubt this is anything like a 'done deal.' In short - feedback is good, but don't panic.


EDIT: I think so far it counts 'PvP wherin you kill another character.' Subduing, knock down, ect doesn't count. Werewolf would probably count if you kiled other characters.

[Nobs]

From what i understand this server is build around conflict as its D&D , but we are all free to play how and what we want with in the server lore and rules.

Its up to every one of us to play what we like to play and what is fun for you may not be fun to me and the other way around aswel , nothing wrong with that.

So 40% (at least - from what I´ve seen of people participating ind discord chat) of the surface should just quit playing the server because we don´t find it fun constantly thrown upon us... That is just another word for enforced RP which is against the "Be nice rule".

Alright, have fun with those 60% who... have very few left to RP with to actually start something ,because rest is just gone...

That are your words and numbers mate.
And pvp is so easy to avoid any way with lenses haste pots hips you name it.
And the few times that my toons where cornerd with no way out but to pvp was all cous of my toons actions before sutch events so they all made total sense to me and good on the 'enemy' to get my toons cornerd like that , Can count them on 3 fingers btw ;p

What and who we rp makes other players around us act for good or bad vs our toons.
We all make our own beds.

[Nymann]

Short of requiring ooc concent for pvp, to ensure both parties feel conflict has escalated to where its meritted, there will always be characters/factions/settlements that threaten characters/factions/settlements, and players will have no choice but to deal with it one way or another. And that includes the threat of pvp.

Yet continuing to do it... WELL AWARE that they are against it for now... Don´t take me wrong some on Surface enjoys PvP... just not this insane amount...

It sort of goes against the Be Nice rule... to just continue doing it. - In my opinion the most important of all the rules

[JubJub]

viewtopic.php?f=15&p=175231#p175231

Seems like a solution that might actually help. Though i'd add the Anundor slum portal to the list too, and maybe some others. Creating physical distance between surface and the UD by limiting ability to portal in with ease would make UD -> Surface, or Surface -> Raids alot harder to pull off, and create predictability in what direction they can come from.

This won't help a lot since it assumes most the pvp is surface vs UD. In the UD it seems like a lot of the pvp is UD vs UD so limiting portals won't help. A lot of the pvp on the surface is against other surfacers. Also you have ships now, ok I can't portal somewhere lets hop on a ship and raid. Instead of limiting portals maybe go back to where you only can portal to spots on the server you are on. Instead of any portal.

[Nymann]

From what i understand this server is build around conflict as its D&D , but we are all free to play how and what we want with in the server lore and rules.

Its up to every one of us to play what we like to play and what is fun for you may not be fun to me and the other way around aswel , nothing wrong with that.

So 40% (at least - from what I´ve seen of people participating ind discord chat) of the surface should just quit playing the server because we don´t find it fun constantly thrown upon us... That is just another word for enforced RP which is against the "Be nice rule".

Alright, have fun with those 60% who... have very few left to RP with to actually start something ,because rest is just gone...

That are your words and numbers mate.
And pvp is so easy to avoid any way with lenses haste pots hips you name it.
And the few times that my toons where cornerd with no way out but to pvp was all cous of my toons actions before sutch events so they all made total sense to me and good on the 'enemy' to get my toons cornerd like that , Can count them on 3 fingers btw ;p

What and who we rp makes other players around us act for good or bad vs our toons.
We all make our own beds.

I lensed out once because i didn´t want to PvP and was greeted with 4 tells saying "GOOD RP, VERY FUN"

[magistrasa]

I dread the day any hard PvP cap comes to Andunor. With how limited government functionality is in the Underdark, wild west style bounties are sometimes the only way to ensure unsavory types STAY out of the city. And when the two districts account for less than half of the city, exiling enemies of the public interest really isn't an option without kill-on-sight rules. Harsh as I'm sure that sounds, if you look at the history, UDers tend to only ever implement that against the most deserving of characters. DMs haven't stopped us so far (unless, I guess, this is how they've finally decided to stop us). So please, like so many of us are saying, let IC actions have IC consequences - and let those consequences be determined IC.

[Brandon Steel]

Yet continuing to do it... WELL AWARE that they are against it for now... Don´t take me wrong some on Surface enjoys PvP... just not this insane amount...

It sort of goes against the Be Nice rule... to just continue doing it. - In my opinion the most important of all the rules

You keep saying there’s multiple raids, where is this happening exactly? When I hear raid I think of people going after a settlement or something which is in itself against the rules without DM permission anyways. If it’s just at different places in the surface I don’t really know what to tell you, it’s been happening for years on both sides (UD and surface). When it comes to sailing I mean it really needs to be expected that there’s probably going to be some sort of conflict with the very active pirate faction right now, so don’t do it alone or with a small group.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Keeping in mind I'm only a DM, and not Admin or anything - two things to consider.

1) This is a test. A tryout. We'll see how (if) it works, and then come to further conclusions. I very much doubt it'll be moved to mainland Arelith for some time yet, if it ever is.

2) I consider it highly unlikely that even IF such a system is embraced on mainland arelith, that it'll be done so in the same form, for many of the reasons listed already. Up to and including
*Doesn't account for people who don't do writs anyway due to over leveling.
*Doesn't account for mass pvp.
*Numbers would need to be rejigged and shifted to at once help provide a dissinsentive, without making winning pvp a huge 'punishment.'

By all means keep putting your thoughts down here, but as I said we're well awear that there are issues here that need to be balenced, and I doubt this is anything like a 'done deal.' In short - feedback is good, but don't panic.


EDIT: I think so far it counts 'PvP wherin you kill another character.' Subduing, knock down, ect doesn't count. Werewolf would probably count if you kiled other characters.

Thank you for the reply, Grumpy... So in your view, the intention here is to provide a disincentive to pvp. Is that the view of the people who are implementing this and designing the policies this new measure reflects? Can you shed some light on what those policies are? f you can't do this, could you encourage one of the people who is responsible for this to reply here?


As to the rest of you... Shouting and screaming about "THERE IS SO MUCH/SO LITTLE/PROBLEM/NO PROBLEM WITH PVP" is really not what this thread is for. The only problem I CURRENTLY see with pvp as a whole (this could easily change as people present reasoned arguments), is the way people are talking about it, and the way that so few comments are backed up with anything which even approaches being a data or a fact, or interpretation of either of those. Instead it seems people are quite satisfied to lurch about with their unquantified and unqualified statements based on vague hunches and what matey-bro said on discord.

Conversations like that are almost invariably going to lead to a massive inflating of an issue. The emotionally invested statement is always going to turn four people into six. Five minutes conversation before pvp will be turned into three lines in the retelling of it... And so on. If someone is saying something is bad, when they have such an attachment to the argument, they're not going to say "it was a bit bad"... Instead they're going to suggest it is worse than seal clubbing.

That doesn't lend itself to reasonable discussion and problem identification. It lends itself to having a good old fashioned row. Something completely and totally unproductive.

[Dagonlives]

OOC hard rules are a terrible way to restrict roleplay. Skaljard is a unique situation, but a rule such as this sets a bad precedent for judging what is 'good and bad' roleplay. Mechanics are an important part of roleplay, otherwise scenarios become solipsistic when two parties disagree with each other.

That said, I think that at the moment it is a little too easy mechanically to pick a fight. Restricting portal access based on racial tags, making the underdark emphasize the long trips above or going by sea, and adding in mechanics for light/dark sensitivity would go far to improve and reduce interactions in a more meaningful and organic way.

Consider creating a conflict oriented nexus, or a battleground (See what I wrote there) With sufficient resources or incentives that players would desire to compete over it's rewards. This would serve as a way to direct conflict where the Development team desires it organically.

Another possibility is to create an OOC mechanic that makes high level players more aware of a 'low level' concept. I have mistakenly killed lowbies before due to being unable to tell they were not of the epic level since their items were customized to look suitably epic in scope. (I am generally more of a 'catch and release' style player.) While I do avoid low level zones to prevent this, sometimes exceptions occur, and I had to learn which zones were low level and high level origanically.
;

[sad_zav]

Problems I foresee that may or may not come to pass:

"Bad guys" polluting Skal because there will be a lack of repercussions

21+ people coming to Skal to police them because lowbies will be afraid to pvp

ooc quandaries that will take you way out of your character (paladin of kelemvor tolerating a necromancer)

people getting punished for killing in self defense

people travelling in pairs to further dissuade pvp (I'll have to fight both and then I will get punished)

awkward explanations for how the mayor even knows

This also puts more importance to character killing than character death. The person that dies may just respawn and then gloat

If something like this must be implemented, restrict it to the zone the village is in. That makes a lot more sense (but still wouldn't solve everything).

[Nymann]

Yet continuing to do it... WELL AWARE that they are against it for now... Don´t take me wrong some on Surface enjoys PvP... just not this insane amount...

It sort of goes against the Be Nice rule... to just continue doing it. - In my opinion the most important of all the rules

You keep saying there’s multiple raids, where is this happening exactly? When I hear raid I think of people going after a settlement or something which is in itself against the rules without DM permission anyways. If it’s just at different places in the surface I don’t really know what to tell you, it’s been happening for years on both sides (UD and surface). When it comes to sailing I mean it really needs to be expected that there’s probably going to be some sort of conflict with the very active pirate faction right now, so don’t do it alone or with a small group.

Talking about generally going to Surface just for illing people

[ASuicideMissionForSure]

How many of those 116 PvP cases occured in Skal? Distant Shores include Sibayad and all of the ship areas, and I've heard there's been plenty of PvP around those ways.

[Brandon Steel]

How many of those 116 PvP cases occured in Skal? Distant Shores include Sibayad and all of the ship areas, and I've heard there's been plenty of PvP around those ways.

A lot of the ship areas are in surface to my knowledge. Sibayad would certainly contribute to it though.

[ASuicideMissionForSure]

How many of those 116 PvP cases occured in Skal? Distant Shores include Sibayad and all of the ship areas, and I've heard there's been plenty of PvP around those ways.

A lot of the ship areas are in surface to my knowledge. Sibayad would certainly contribute to it though.

I cannot think of one ship area that is on the surface.

[Brandon Steel]

Blackfin, Red Dragon Isle, few other islands, all the ship interiors? Unless I’ve been on the wrong server this entire time they’re all apart of surface.

[ASuicideMissionForSure]

They are all Distant Shores.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Blackfin, Red Dragon Isle, few other islands, all the ship interiors? Unless I’ve been on the wrong server this entire time they’re all apart of surface.

They are part of surface.

[ASuicideMissionForSure]

I must be misremembering if that is true.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Distant shores does not include ship decks for clarification and wowy that is a lot of conflict! I must admit part of the problem of ships involve the pirate faction having few options to interact with the outside community besides /hopping on a ship./ When you see people being taken prisoner it is because pirates made the choice to not kill the person we caught.

As for the problem involved with sailing ships, is that pirates consider the sea their /territory/ as surely as Myon kills people in their forest and Broggenstein kills people on the mountain
I know it is weird because this is a new faction on the block and areas that used to br safe are now teeming with danger but it isn't like mechanics have given us many options. We have nobody to ally except Andunor and no mechanics really support us making anything like peace.

All I am saying is our options for Sencliff beyond piracy are slim and when we take Prisoners it is because we are trying to not just kill people we find. I am not trying to start an argument in this thread but I have a faction of bloodthirsty pirates to feed, and no real outlet besides saying /let's go sailing./ I am open to all suggestions, I welcome community feedback.

[Aftond]

I'm curious to know what counts as a "PvP incident". What's the statistic about? Is it a hostile? Someone killing someone else? Does a party of three killing another party of three count as 3 separate incidents or just 1? Before knowing the answer to these questions, any debating of these numbers is just a theory.

Oh, I forgot. What about driveby knockdowns on party members, accidental or not? Does that constitute an incident?