Wild Mage Changes

[Shadowy Reality]

For clarity's sake, what is this problem with Wild Mages and necromancy I keep reading about?

[susitsu]

Monoliths are an honest nightmare to necromancers. You can always conjure another elemental, and you'll probably be A LOT more ready to buff it than you will be after you've lost the three undead you just spent all your buffs on. Aside from that, the lack of conjuration benefits is pretty notable; they just do not manage in the same content for necromancers. The little AC difference decides whether they vanish to spirits and other content or not.

What I took away from this experience is that despite loving wild mages, I was not having fun anymore and really got sick of playing the character. Interacting with content just to lose my undead during their extensive buffing process which meant it was more likely to get a monolith, caused me to quit dealing with content on the character and shelf them.

[Hazard]

Monoliths are an honest nightmare to necromancers. You can always conjure another elemental, and you'll probably be A LOT more ready to buff it than you will be after you've lost the three undead you just spent all your buffs on. Aside from that, the lack of conjuration benefits is pretty notable; they just do not manage in the same content for necromancers. The little AC difference decides whether they vanish to spirits and other content or not.

What I took away from this experience is that despite loving wild mages, I was not having fun anymore and really got sick of playing the character. Interacting with content just to lose my undead during their extensive buffing process which meant it was more likely to get a monolith, caused me to quit dealing with content on the character and shelf them.

Yep. The monolith is supposed to be a 'beneficial' surge too, but instead you are being screwed by it.

[Seekeepeek]

Random poly-morph into wolfs and cows also kills your spell book pretty nicely.. haha

[Orian_666]

That's not a problem anymore since the poly/spellbook refresh change a good few months back.

[ActionReplay]

Necromancer WM - Monolith: Get an Undead Monolith version instead? School or Foci?

It unsummons your undead - having a monolith + 3 undead is not great. Not sure how to handle it, could add in for it to buff your undead instead if you have 3 out or the Undead Monolith.

[Tomato]

Yeah, monolith turned into a negative surge for Wild Mage ever since I got my vampires and dragon on Cassius. Especially the vampires after I spent so long buffing them. Maybe monolith could turn into a buff when Vampires/dragon are summoned, giving them extra elemental damage and shield? that'll be nice. Undead monolith would be cool too but the monolith sometimes runs away with no explanation (that i could see)
How about this, for the new -chaos, maybe make the surge x% into the greater surge x%? So, if you have 50% of surge, there's 50% you'll get the spell back, even if the spell would be one of the weaker buff spells that are usually 100% to be returned after a greater surge.
Also, I love the glow, and I think -glow should be a command for Wild Mage, along with -sparkle.

[Sockss]

Because of the variety of situations in which a monolith could be detrimental (not just for necromancers), maybe have a conversation ask you if you want it - if not you roll again. (A lot of detrimental summonings would be in combat as well, so I don't see the conversation as a problem)

Having ESF Necro force an undead mono would make it lose randomness in of itself.

[Nitro]

Because of the variety of situations in which a monolith could be detrimental (not just for necromancers), maybe have a conversation ask you if you want it - if not you roll again. (A lot of detrimental summonings would be in combat as well, so I don't see the conversation as a problem)

That seems a bit counterintuitive to a class that's all about rolling the dice to see if you get lucky or unlucky. Just because it's a "positive" surge doesn't mean it should be good in all situations or that the wild mage should get to opt out when it isn't, it's part of the class to roll with the blows.

[Alox]

It is kinda ok that wild mage is not good for necromancy, they have PM goodies going for them.

[RedGiant]

Here's the logic.

1) If your mage has saves and is going into battle with immunities running, (which, why wouldn't they?)...
2) There's a handful more that are harmful...
3) A wild mage has, guaranteed, more spell casts per day than a regular wizard and these have no downsides...
4) Chaos Shield was hardly insignificant...you were untouchable and that if one of the CC effects procced, you would almost certainly win...
5) Are you seriously suggesting that a viable tactic against chaos shield is...
6) Chaos shield (the item) is very different and also requires being attacked...
7) Wild mages are better cross-classed, as healers are...

Logic.

1) Because...pure class...not everyone builds as your #7).

2) Not even close to true, as Tomato demonstrated. I won't bother with all the details, but it suffices to say losing the ability to cast for several rounds or incurring a 50% arcane spell failure is a fair bit more serious on a wizard than the 'hardly insurmountable' estimate.

3) Six extra spells..if they go pure These six spells each have a 100% chance of causing a surge, which actually do have downsides, see #2). Here even Tomato's list is somewhat incomplete, because you can, for example, sunstrike yourself blind...which you earlier granted was significant...at least to the foes of Wild Mages.

4) I agree Chaos Shield is significant, thus why I would like it back. Yet, this does not make the wild mage untouchable nor does its effects processing ensure that you will win...just asked the last Weapon Master who hacked a Wild Mage in half at 200HP a strike, because scimitar and shield is its very own kind of 'instant action'.

5) Yes. I gave a list of tactics which work well when used by a competent PvPer. Stringing them all together to make a highly improbable scenario was not my point. I covered many of the bases, including PvP against healer path clerics and against rogues/assassins, who may very well decide to wait you out...because they are very, very good at that.

6) Chaos Shield (item) is a very similar in principle to the Wild Mage Chaos Shield, which is also primarily defensive. Trying to press your cumulative 20% AoE onto an opponent set on avoiding it would be time probably better spend on....casting spells for example. But, the principle I was alluding to here is that "no one seriously avoids PvP with someone because they are holding a chaos shield (item)." Could it possibly turn the tide? Sure! It is by no means, however, a "certain win". You can quite legitimately extrapolate this to the Wild Mage Chaos Shield.

7) Sure, if you never want to truly master your Wild Mage powers, or, if all you are looking for is a few extra spells (and their associated risks, see #2), then I suppose you're right.

In short, I argue that Chaos Shield was simply not as OP as you seem to suggest. I still really like the power, and would love to have it back. I could be wrong, but I think the staff tweaking it was more a more thematic than balance concern.

If you believe even half of what you say, that surge consequences are largely insignificant and that Wild Mages have few to no downsides, you should jump on the band wagon with me to restore the old functionality...because what I have now is a permanent +9 to all spell DCs!

[Sockss]

Because of the variety of situations in which a monolith could be detrimental (not just for necromancers), maybe have a conversation ask you if you want it - if not you roll again. (A lot of detrimental summonings would be in combat as well, so I don't see the conversation as a problem)

That seems a bit counterintuitive to a class that's all about rolling the dice to see if you get lucky or unlucky. Just because it's a "positive" surge doesn't mean it should be good in all situations or that the wild mage should get to opt out when it isn't, it's part of the class to roll with the blows.

I agree, but it keeps parity with what is otherwise then a superior state of affairs for any wild mage with ESF Necromancy - which seems odd.

[Sockss]

1) Because...pure class...not everyone builds as your #7).

No, but balance should be first and foremost put in place to bring the most deviantly powerful things to a rough norm.

If you build badly, that's your choice.

I find it odd (Although reading on maybe not) that you can think of no way that your pure mage could gain access to FoM.

2) Not even close to true, as Tomato demonstrated. I won't bother with all the details, but it suffices to say losing the ability to cast for several rounds or incurring a 50% arcane spell failure is a fair bit more serious on a wizard than the 'hardly insurmountable' estimate.

I'm glad that you took at least some notice of the previous post. As I'm sure most can tell reading it, the surges provided are very easily surmountable / insignificant.

I intentionally missed some of the intricacies out which I had hoped would result in this, highlighting your inexperience with the class.

Have you ever tried to restore a panic? It's pretty nifty.

3) Six extra spells..if they go pure These six spells each have a 100% chance of causing a surge, which actually do have downsides, see #2). Here even Tomato's list is somewhat incomplete, because you can, for example, sunstrike yourself blind...which you earlier granted was significant...at least to the foes of Wild Mages.

Again, as the initial point, the chance of an effective positive surge vastly outweighs that of an effective negative surge.

Absolutely indisputably if you relegate surge use to peaceful buffing.

4) I agree Chaos Shield is significant, thus why I would like it back. Yet, this does not make the wild mage untouchable nor does its effects processing ensure that you will win...just asked the last Weapon Master who hacked a Wild Mage in half at 200HP a strike, because scimitar and shield is its very own kind of 'instant action'.

Try running away with an EDK tagged on the wm, keeping them just inside aura range.

5) Yes. I gave a list of tactics which work well when used by a competent PvPer. Stringing them all together to make a highly improbable scenario was not my point. I covered many of the bases, including PvP against healer path clerics and against rogues/assassins, who may very well decide to wait you out...because they are very, very good at that.

No, you misunderstand, individually they are all laughable - I wasn't stringing them all together.

Are you advocating a rogue/assassin with relatively short term buffs wait out a competent caster now? Oof.

6) Chaos Shield (item) is a very similar in principle to the Wild Mage Chaos Shield, which is also primarily defensive. Trying to press your cumulative 20% AoE onto an opponent set on avoiding it would be time probably better spend on....casting spells for example. But, the principle I was alluding to here is that "no one seriously avoids PvP with someone because they are holding a chaos shield (item)." Could it possibly turn the tide? Sure! It is by no means, however, a "certain win". You can quite legitimately extrapolate this to the Wild Mage Chaos Shield.

As explained, it is not similar at all. One requires you to trade HP against proc chance so there is an average value of HP you must trade for a chance. A build designed around a wieldable chaos shield must therefore be able to mitigate incoming damage, preferably from a large health pool. WMCS needs no such thing, it doesn't even require melee range so there's no risk on those it's effective against.

In short, I argue that Chaos Shield was simply not as OP as you seem to suggest. I still really like the power, and would love to have it back. I could be wrong, but I think the staff tweaking it was more a more thematic than balance concern.

I've seen you say that it isn't, I've yet to see you argue it.

If you believe even half of what you say, that surge consequences are largely insignificant and that Wild Mages have few to no downsides, you should jump on the band wagon with me to restore the old functionality...because what I have now is a permanent +9 to all spell DCs!

I'll refer you to an earlier post.

It's a step in the right direction IMO with the new chaos both mechanically and thematically - chucking raw magic around should be risky and the DC increase makes negative effects and positive effects proportionately more menacing.

I'd even advocate the removal of spell replenishment entirely, that would be a good step in levelling out WM's power compared to regular wizards.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

It takes two pre-epic feats and one epic feat to increase the DC of all spells in ONE spell school by 6.

Spell DC's are arguably the most delicately balanced thing in the game, where if they go too high everyone but mages is worthless, and if they're too low everyone builds save gear and laughs at the mage.

Whether or not the surges are too good, too negative, or chaos shield was OP or not; the mechanical ability to add +9 to all your spells is probably (definitely and easily) the single most powerful home-brew buff I've ever seen given to any class, scripted or not, in any D&D medium, in 28 years of playing.

Anything that boosts all spell DC's should certainly be capped lower than +6 - right now a wild mage with 28 levels and no spell focus feats can cast every spell they have at a higher DC than every single 28+ specialist on the server in their chosen school- so why would you ever bother with anything other than a wild mage when picking wizard ever again, other than to be 45% less effective (75% outside your chosen schools) than a wild mage during end game?

Honestly, +9 is too much even if one of the negative drawbacks was dying as soon as you finish casting the spell, IMO. I would recommend a value closer to % bonus divided by 25, round down (for a max of 3, which is still equal to one and a half free feats- Edit2: PER SPELL SCHOOL).

Edit: To be honest, I still think that's too much; I'd think it more appropriate that when chaos is on, you have a 50/50 chance of having any spell you cast automatically roll max on everything, or automatically roll minimum on everything. Seems much more thematically appropriate (although it's probably also a lot more work, coding wise). More importantly, it leaves the precarious balance of spell DC's untouched.

Edit 3: Mathematically Speaking
Every wizard takes multiple epic foci, because +6 DC means they are 30% more likely to succeed in dealing full effect of a spell in each school they take it in. There are seven schools, and this takes 3 feats per school.

Being a level 28 wild mage allows you to add +9 to the spell DC's of all schools. This makes their spells 45% more likely to land - all of them.

This means being a level 28 wild mage is 50% more effective than taking 14 pre-epic feats and 7 epic feats.

[Jack Oat]

Edit: math is hard

[Rook]

Wild Mages were already potent and a complete no-brain upgrade over vanilla wizards and the other paths (Shadow Mage *coughs*). I don't quite understand how increasing their DC was A) needed and B) considered a prudent idea.

They don't really give up anything in exchange for that ridiculous power either, imo. As someone else pointed out throughout the thread; a lot of the negative effects of surges can be negated rather handily to the point that end-game wild mages take rather calculated risks with their surges.

Getting absurd +DC, free spell quantities, surges and the option for a targeted surge? It's just too much.

This feels like a change made simply for the sake of changing something in the best case, an unnecessary and unjustifiable power upgrade for an already great class/path if one's more cynical.

EDIT: After clarification on the conditions on receiving the +DC, it definitely feels less dramatic.

And the old chaos shield was pretty great, but also fun to use imo. Shame to see it gone.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

It was pointed out to me that the update text reads "Surged Spells", which I take to mean "all spells that proc a surge get +9 DC," but another reading is that "spells that are cast as a result of a surge (like the chicken polymorph) gain +9 DC."

For clarification, may I ask which of these is the case?

[Sockss]

Additionally the DC of surged spells will increase based...

Only spells unique to surges have increased DC.

For extra clarity: "spells that are cast as a result of a surge (like the chicken polymorph) gain +9 DC." this one.

For extra extra clarity:

The bonus DC won't happen if it's fated, so you can't choose what gets a DC boost.
You need to be a pure wild mage to achieve +9 DC, anything else is limited to +1/5 levels and have to commit to a 10% increase (on base) surge chance to get, per DC.
Bonus DC's affect negative surges the WM saves against.

[Rook]

Additionally the DC of surged spells will increase based...

Only spells unique to surges have increased DC.

For extra clarity: "spells that are cast as a result of a surge (like the chicken polymorph) gain +9 DC." this one.

For extra extra clarity:

The bonus DC won't happen if it's fated, so you can't choose what gets a DC boost.
You need to be a pure wild mage to achieve +9 DC, anything else is limited to +1/5 levels and have to commit to a 10% increase (on base) surge chance to get, per DC.
Bonus DC's affect negative surges the WM saves against.

That's a good clarification, I definitely understood that wrong as well. Thank you! That'd have been pretty bonkers.

[Sockss]

No worries and yeh, it would have been!

[RedGiant]

"If you build badly, that's your choice."
"I find it odd (Although reading on maybe not) that you can think of no way that your pure mage could gain access to FoM"
"I intentionally missed some of the intricacies out which I had hoped would result in this, highlighting your inexperience with the class."

As we've devolved into insults and aspersions, this thread could probably be locked at the request of its creator. I'm sure Action et al have got the class going forward and I, for one, totally trust his boyish good looks.

*Edit for Maturity

[Tomato]

One more change I'd like to suggest, after playing with the - chaos change, is that there's some sort of unique but subtle visual representation for chaos, something like the ion stone glow the true fighter surge gets, I often activate chaos and lose track if I activated it or not, or I have to type - chaos to check if I have it on by clicking on the quick slot key for it after a lot of surges in a row, it gets activated and I have to wait a minute. I'd like to have a way for me (and others) to know how dangerous I might be.
Thank you.