The roleplaying (or not) of low mental attributes?

[DM Axis]

There is no requirement to roleplay stats as they appear on your character sheet.
'Powerbuilding' is an allowed means of crafting a character to be effective in a particular way whether via skills or in combat or another means of interacting with the world around them.

If you feel that roleplaying a (negative) stat is done so in a crass or offensive way, this should be reported to the Active DM team.
Understand also that others will play out characters in the way and flavor they feel is appropriate for their character. It however is not the players who should take it upon themselves to police each other, saying who is playing right or wrong. The responsibility of the players both in the forum and in game are to react and respond to the roleplay presented.

And if there should be a concern, again, report the details of the issue and the character at hand and such will be reviewed and addressed. Thank you.

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

Another two huge pet peeves that I forgot to mention in the opening post is that if strict adherance to stats exists then certain kinds of rp will be bound to certain builds, unless you are willing to take rather substantial mechanical penalties. It also means that paladin builds for example are in a privilaged position because the class does not need to chose between mental stats and mechanical viability, gaining solid benefits from all three of them.

The second is that if you say a character has cha 8 and as a result cannot be a leader reduces what is supposed to be a complex character to a single stat, in a way that is incredibly harmful to rp. I am more inclined to say that a cha 8 weaponmaster is someone who lacks inate talent towards leadership, but very much can grow into the role as he gains experience and levels. Whatever his natural defects, growing incredibly competant with a weapon will increase ones confidence, his status, his reputation, and his ability to gather people around him by being able to protect them. All of which more then make up any intate lack of leadership qualities found in cha 8. Same thing with wis 8. By the time they are in the high teens, or epics, their will saving throw will be high enough to make up for inate lack of will power, and the experience they have gained adventuring will more then compensate for innate lack of common sense.

[Durvayas]

Negative stats SHOULD NOT be the standard of building.

Perhaps, there was a time when powerbuilding was for powergamers - may I humbly postulate that it is long gone on Arelith.
Out of like 7-8 character concepts that excited and inspired me to play in the last year, by really having it all coming together, only 2 came out sub-optimal enough to be playable and not suck terribly, although I know how building works. I am at the stage of desperation where I begin to really consider damned sword-and-board WMs and clerics sometimes. Once you try building for fun - everything and its mother is restricted away, or requires a carry-friend who built for power. You can't defy the meta.

Arelith has steadily driven towards being a powerbuilders only server since I first joined back in late 2011. Power creep has been slow but consistent, and building for PvP has been at a steady incline. The game was not a munchkinned quite so thoroughly as it is now back in its original heyday. People used to experiment wildly on arelith, and you'd find all manner of build, wielding all manner of weapons. Scimitars and towershields didn't become standard issue until 2014. The 20/7/3 WM didn't get popularized until 2015. 14 int wasn't the standard until UMD became 100% nescessary for PvP back in 2014.

While PvE drove people to focus on build a little bit more because the module was getting harder over time, the module was only being adjusted to account for the arms race among PvP builds, which is what really drove the culture shift on arelith.

The banite wars of 2012 are when PvP seemed to become more important than ever on the server, and players on both sides of the spectrum, team good and team evil, were building stronger and stronger characters in a drive to win and enforce their will on the other side. Arelith's frankly poisonous 'war' methodology of the era (where all wars were forever wars, won by the attrition of the other team on an OOC level through continous PvP and voterushing and exiles) poisoned the proverbial well for the casual roleplayer on the server.

[Hazard]

Should he have been penalized in any way for the creation of the Half Orc Camp?

No, I don't think anyone is arguing that he should be penalized for creating RP.

RP can be created with or without high mental stats. Just apply a sprinkling of imagination.

[magistrasa]

Should everyone who wants to play a character who isn't a moron invest in some +1 INT/WIS/CHA gear for RP to satisfy that "roleplay your sheet" demand

[MoreThanThree]

Let's all cast "legend lore" and "Fox's Cunning" on orcs so they can speak full sentences, too!

[CosmicOrderV]

Honestly I think the Dev's are already nipping the concerns presented here in the bud. More and more, the 'sub-optimal' choices are being made more attractive, such that it becomes less about power, and more about what mechanical flavor you want.

Pure rogue used to be utter trash. It's still not great, but woo wee it's a lot less punishing now. Same with assassin. You have to consider as well, only so much can be changed without HAKs.

I'm sure as the server persists, we're only going to see these things improve all the more with the introduction of HAKs. Spell foci that work for any caster! Cookies for those with less common feats and skills (Craft Weapon/Armor, like with Dweomer crafting!).

It's been a long, slow ride, but g'damnit, we're getting there

[Emotionaloverload]

Stats and skills don't just have one way to be rp'd. I have seen a few good leaders with 8CHA (they weren't Independence Day charismatic though) that relied on other stats or different methods of leading (looking at you Daedin).

Have fun with it. Do it your way.

-S

[Iceborn]

Negative stats SHOULD NOT be the standard of building. There are five million ways to roleplay those stats, but if you plan to dump that charisma to a glorious 6 and play a social mastermind, that's where I get a little ticked off.

Actually no, let me challenge you on this. There once was an orc by the name of Mudagog, who was warm and friendly to everyone around. He was a barbarian, as powerbuilt as can be. He founded an orcish state simply through the sheer roleplay that his player exuded. Should he have been penalized in any way for the creation of the Half Orc Camp?

You can be a great roleplayer and achieve greatness with and without a powerbuild.
Two more points in a 'dump' stat are not going to ruin your build.

I have nothing against low-stat characters; I merely expect those stats to be roleplayed accordingly.
We even have -mimic to have characters pretending they are more charismatic than they actually are.

[Royal Blood]

A basic truth in Arelith is that you need to be mechanically viable to survive or have someone around you that is mechanically competent to push an agenda. I strongly agree that negative stats should be played out. Occasionally a DM may roll your stats, like Clea got rolled on Charisma while rallying NPC elves.

Clea is a min/maxed build. I used to pay more attention to the stats but frankly the stat system is rather flat and doesn't adapt to your characters changes. Like Clea was Coronal for 4 IG years. Shouldn't she have higher charisma?

So because the system is so mundane I don't pay it a ton of credit. More over, being mechanically competent is essential I think depending on how you play. For example, without the ability for Clea's soldiers to be able to win PVP she would have been a push over. Without her ability to survive and fight assassin's her story would have ended a lot sooner.

PVP is a powerful tool to force a story and if you can't defend against it you'll be stuck. So that's why I have gone with a min/maxed build. Being cappable to survive PVP is too important to avoid getting muscled into choices.

If Myon could not compete with Andunors pvpers we would have been doomed to have our Mythal camped as it was before etc. If Myon couldn't beat warlocks or contend with the pirates, we'd get no where. So the mechanical viability of your character is important.

The key is just not to abuse that if you have a good build.

[Marsi]

The mechanics of NWN lack the nuance to be relied on as the sole source of character-writing truth. Should all effective fighters have the same psychological profile? Like others have said -2 to some stats doesn't make one a drooling idiot. I think the examples about 5 CHA half orcs waxing eloquent are edge cases and aren't equivalent to an 8 CHA weaponmaster who happens to lead a faction.

I sense a resurgence of RP purism from the ranks of EE migrants. Guys, don't worry so much about what's on other peoples' character sheets. If you were hoping for an environment where everyone is a virtuous "roll"-player with old school sensibilities, where mechanics are obfuscated for "immersion", both by design and by player culture, you missed the boat by about 10 years. Most, if not all, of the high brow roleplayers on the server are also shameless powerbuilders, grinders and farmers. The storytelling on Arelith isn't about playing off the NWN mechanics but other players. This is my demur to this, to all the talk of making disguise even more extreme, and all the rest of it. The mechanics of NWN and D&D are restrictive, arbitrary and antiquated, with so many trap options and poor balancing, that people are simply bored of storytelling being definitively confined to its parameters.

To add: we've progressed beyond the days where mechanics were shrouded in mystery and where everything was placebo and guesswork. We've progressed even beyond the days where there were those who understood mechanics and held an advantage over those who did not. The way it is now, as I see it, is with everything publicized and disseminated, is that there are those who understand mechanics, and those who choose to ignore them. And I don't think there's any nobility in the latter, often just ludditism.

[CosmicOrderV]

Damn! Well put.

[A little fellow]

I think it's fairly obvious that about 90% (that's a conservative estimate) of all players will have a build they consider powerbuilding. Which is why I think it is less a problem with adhering to character sheets or not, and more a problem of a stigma between two players based upon how their characters are perceived OOCly.

Just as easily as you could say 90% of characters are powerbuilds, you could say that 90% of characters are brave, witty, intelligent, strong and charismatic. It is sort of the cookie cutter character type on Arelith I have noticed over my years of playing. I don't want people to think I'm calling them insecure, but I think most players feel the stigma of not wanting their characters to seem unintelligent, as they and players around them might perceive that as the player behind the character being unintelligent.

It is something I have felt before. And it is something that I have negatively judged other players for in the past .. whilst not really considering the possibility their purpose in the bigger picture of things.


"How can you create a faction despite low INT and CHA?" is an interesting question to ask, because the answer is not "you cant" .. history shows us that many regimes are born out of brutality, and on a foundation of otherwise stupid ideals.

[WanderingPoet]

Once you try building for fun - everything and its mother is restricted away, or requires a carry-friend who built for power. You can't defy the meta.

You can quite easily defy the meta; PvE on Arelith is not especially hard. Yes if you don't optimize your character you will struggle in PvP against optimized characters - but the actual PvE content is not at all restricted away from you. Most builds can solo all the way into the epics (and some the entire epics) and need friends when you start getting into the epic dungeons. As someone that regularly makes 'fun builds' that are less optimal, I've found that the build does not make a difference outside of PvP confrontations.

Even then, if your character is week in PvP, so what? There is nothing wrong with fleeing and grabbing friends or otherwise losing - as you will be better at other things.

Actually no, let me challenge you on this. There once was an orc by the name of Mudagog, who was warm and friendly to everyone around. He was a barbarian, as powerbuilt as can be. He founded an orcish state simply through the sheer roleplay that his player exuded. Should he have been penalized in any way for the creation of the Half Orc Camp?

Everyone has their own definition of charisma. In my opinion, having a low charisma doesn't mean that you're unfriendly or cold. Mudagog was a great example of a low charisma character from what I saw of him - he lacked social graces. Would he have had such success creating a camp if he was not a half orc where the characters involved saw the lack of social graces as a non-issue (or in some cases a plus)? You can be a leader with a low charisma - think a drill sergeant in an army, they lead but tend to be rude and abrasive.

I have found that having weaknesses is more often a boon to roleplay than the strengths. Having both strengths and weaknesses defines your characters soft limitations and sets the boundaries between what is easy and what will becomes their struggle - what they need to ask help with, which gives others a chance to shine.

---
In the end, I've always found it best to roleplay your character sheet - though that isn't the same as saying someone with 6/8 int = drooling idiot. Figuring out what you want to do with the character will allow you to build towards what you want to do with a character - if you want to play a politician you'll likely want more charisma/int/wis; if you want a support character then you could mix dweomercrafting even if it costs some combat feats; if you want to defend the world against the underdark threat then you will likely want more mechanical optimization.

[The GrumpyCat]

Hello. I've not read all of this, so if I'm going over a few points I apologise, but here's a few thoughts anyway.

There is no requirement to roleplay stats as they appear on your character sheet.
'Powerbuilding' is an allowed means of crafting a character to be effective in a particular way whether via skills or in combat or another means of interacting with the world around them.

If you feel that roleplaying a (negative) stat is done so in a crass or offensive way, this should be reported to the Active DM team.
Understand also that others will play out characters in the way and flavor they feel is appropriate for their character. It however is not the players who should take it upon themselves to police each other, saying who is playing right or wrong. The responsibility of the players both in the forum and in game are to react and respond to the roleplay presented.

And if there should be a concern, again, report the details of the issue and the character at hand and such will be reviewed and addressed. Thank you.

Requoting Axis, because he's basically correct.

Yes, it is best to at least try to rp what is on your character sheet, especialy reguarding race/alignment/class. But the nitty gritty of skills and stats we worry less on, and mostly it will be dealt with in terms of RPR rating.

Honestly though - even then when I'm looking at raising someones rpr, I look less at 'are they rping their stats' and a lot more at 'Are they playing a unique and interesting character with it's own strengths and flaws and quirks'. Stats, especialy mental ones, are pretty subjective, and often not really what the other players see, they see what sort of character is being played. Again ideally there should be some sort of marrying up of the two, but I don't think one needs to get particularly nitty gritty about it.
To use an example - a terrified stuttering level 20 rogue who only fights when bullied into it. Could be a great character. But is those faults mentioned wisdom (he lacks courage and understanding to now how powerful he really is) or charisma (he lacks self confidence and social abilities) or intelligence (he's not smart enough to realize that he's actually quote powerful (ok this one is a stretch but still..)) In the end it doesn't matter which one of these is low, if the characterisation is strong enough.
(Note that the conventional take on 'charisma' is especially difficult to measure because in my experience, characters with low charisma as played by stuttering, ugliness, shyness, ect are actually -more- likely to be enjoyed and liked by other characters, so you can get cha 6 halforc, who in theory should be dispised by other characters, actually rather adored)


Situation comes into it as well. Your Farmer turned Warrior character may only have 8 int and 0 lore, but even he should know about crop rotations, for example.


Mostly I encourage people to rp their low stats because well, it's -fun-. Sometimes it's a good idea to rp your character not knowing something, or making a dumb decision, or a social faux pass. It gives others chance to shine, and can make a situation more interesting for yourself and it can lead to interesting character growth.

As a thought on power building- I sort of agree and sort of don't?

You should build for whatever you consider 'fun' for yourself, and make characters likewise.

For example: Let's say I want to make a character who is an expert spy and sneak. I could build him to be amazing at pvp, sure. But is that really where my focus is? Not hugely. It's more important that I can spy well enough to avoid the PvP in the first place. So I will want to build in that direction.

Maybe I want to make a character who is a complete lore fiend, who goes to unexpected places, learns things, explores ect - then I want to make them really awesome at PVE likely, but PvP? That's pretty secondary.

Or maybe a gentle illmateri healer, who has taken a vow of pacerfism. Again - very sweet. I'd want to buff up things like heal and such, but why would they need to be a PvP fiend?

Now if I want a character who is meant to be hard as nails, to go out and kill, to spread fear, to fight for a cause against other pcs? Then yeah sure, build for pvp. That's your aim that makes sense. But even that shouldn't be done in a vacuum. You need to have good and interesting rp around the PvP, or all you're doing is upsetting other players.

You should also accept that even with an amazing build, sometimes you're going to loose in PvP and what you want to do with that loss. Further more - it's perfectly possible to push an agenda on the server, without being The Best PvPer Ever. Sure, it helps a bit, but if you surround yourself with good rp, and other good rpers, then you'll find it's no where near as necessary. Aside from anything else, if your character can make friends with other players who are good pvpers, then why do they need to be built for PvP themselves?


So yes, whilst people don't need to worry about the miniscule details on their character sheet, it's good to make a build that fits what your character does. And if it fits what their character does, and you have a personality that also works approximately around that, then I think all is fine.


Finally, just quoting Marsi for an excellent point:

I sense a resurgence of RP purism from the ranks of EE migrants. Guys, don't worry so much about what's on other peoples' character sheets. If you were hoping for an environment where everyone is a virtuous "roll"-player with old school sensibilities, where mechanics are obfuscated for "immersion", both by design and by player culture, you missed the boat by about 10 years. Most, if not all, of the high brow roleplayers on the server are also shameless powerbuilders, grinders and farmers. The storytelling on Arelith isn't about playing off the NWN mechanics but other players

This

[Yolrii]

I usually RP some sort of glaring weakness in the character to reflect a negative attribute.

It's a sad fact that in order to succeed in your RP, sometimes you have to get your kill on, and you need to be a powerbuild for that.

I'd like to see the DM team do more to reward good RP over powerbuilding, but c'est la vie.

[DM Sollers]

Hello, friends. I am going to settle some things based off of our server policy.

Re: character sheets, I’m going to clarify what my colleagues have said in short: you are expected to roleplay your character sheet. This is in our Roleplay rule. It’s a server policy. It is not changing. Your character is its character sheet and you must roleplay your character sheet.

Now, that doesn’t mean we are going to delete your character if you don’t roleplay illiteracy at sub-10 INT. We will, however, monitor this when considering RPR increases. We will coach individuals who are grossly out-of-line from their character sheet. We will communicate if there is a problem. There are a lot of ways for ability scores to be roleplayed and there is a lot of room for creative agency. This does not only factor in ability scores, but classes or races as well. Each instance is handled case-by-case in correlation with how much correction needs to be made.

Cheers.

DM Sollers

[MoreThanThree]

Casual reminder that you aren't any worse of an RPer for having good stats and 8s in dump stats.

[Shiki]

I don't think that a -1 need be a particularly serious detriment to the faculties of the character, but whatever the case, I do consider the ability scores of my characters to some extent when RPing. If my characters have negative charisma, I like to be a little rude to people, for instance, so that they find my character less likeable. I have a shadowdancer who is basically a low-key Pinky from Pinky and the Brain due to her -1 Wis score.

That said, there are many ways to consider an ability score, and I also have a high charisma battlecleric with (granted) a fairly good strength score. She tends to be a holier-than-thou, intensely forceful woman, and extremely high-strung, but also touts that her strength is in her faith, because she really isn't all that great with a weapon without the blessings of her Goddess.

There are a lot of ways to interpret what your attributes mean. I think it's enough to give them some consideration. None of these characters are a 'powerbuild.' They're BUILDS, because the game rather requires it, I don't suggest you play a 3.0 lineage system without pre-considering your options at ALL, but they're mechanically viable builds around concepts for characters that I wanted to play.

The idea of RP builds in NWN is, in my opinion, an attempt to ignore a large portion of the game rules. It's like trying to play Monopoly without money. It might be fun, but... it's ignoring a lot of what's there and arguably what is also the point of the game, which is the incredible freedom of choice in what is still a rigidly defined mechanical system (which may or may not have anything describable even as shaded with balance).

The point of builds are that they impose limitations on the character. Roleplay those limitations, that's what makes your character. You can't do everything, neither can your characters, and from this, RP can and should rise. Personally I've found the suggestion of 'being a build' instead of a roleplay character to be insulting. Anyone who pays attention to my characters would see I put a lot of work into their manner and presentation, and to whine about powerbuild because I dare to put forethought into my feats as well?

What other feats should I take? There's only bloody thirty of them or so.

With all that said, a build towards a very specific facet or objective is perfectly fine, even if it's mechanically inferior. People who want to craft do this all the time. People who want to be stealthy do this all the time. People who want to play a particular concept trade a couple of optimal feats for their concept all the time. These aren't power builds, they're 'RP' builds. And they're powerful. And they work.

[MoreThanThree]

There is no requirement to roleplay stats as they appear on your character sheet.
'Powerbuilding' is an allowed means of crafting a character to be effective in a particular way whether via skills or in combat or another means of interacting with the world around them.

Re: character sheets, I’m going to clarify what my colleagues have said in short: you are expected to roleplay your character sheet. This is in our Roleplay rule. It’s a server policy. It is not changing. Your character is its character sheet and you must roleplay your character sheet.

I'd like to see the DM team do more to reward good RP over powerbuilding, but c'est la vie.

[Vincent]

Stats are very arbitrary to begin with. What is intelligence, at least in FR? Apparently it determines how many "skills" you're proficient at, which consists of things such as: your ability to not fall flat on your arse after being hit particularly hard, your ability to roll about on the floor to avoid things, and your ability to identify items. Only the last one really makes sense to me as having anything to do with "intelligence," and that's why INT modifies your lore, I suppose. However, intelligence is also the reason you're able to learn a variety of skills, which just doesn't make much sense if you really think about it.

Every stat has bizarre nuances like these which surely undermine any value adhering to them for roleplay reasons might have. I personally don't think they have much to do with good character writing.

[MoreThanThree]

And can we retire the phrase "RP Build"? It's creating this false dichotomy that implies they're better RPers than Powerbuilders. Can we call them "VoSP" instead?

[DM Sollers]

There is no requirement to roleplay stats as they appear on your character sheet.
'Powerbuilding' is an allowed means of crafting a character to be effective in a particular way whether via skills or in combat or another means of interacting with the world around them.

Re: character sheets, I’m going to clarify what my colleagues have said in short: you are expected to roleplay your character sheet. This is in our Roleplay rule. It’s a server policy. It is not changing. Your character is its character sheet and you must roleplay your character sheet.

I'd like to see the DM team do more to reward good RP over powerbuilding, but c'est la vie.

Yeah, I’ll be blunt in saying that Axis’ statement is not the server policy.

As said, we aren’t going to beat somebody up because they weren’t playing their 8int character as a dummy... But we are going to raise a brow and check RPR if their 8int character starts copy-pasting obscure lore they haven’t learned elsewhere out of the blue. It’s a whacky example, but it’s the best I’ve got.

This discussion is done.

DM Sollers