Arelith

Hey speaking of broken things that should be nerfed, why do wild mages still have avascular mass ( and probably ten other ridiculous spells I'm not even aware of )?

Tarkus the dog wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:37 am Hey speaking of broken things that should be nerfed, why do wild mages still have avascular mass ( and probably ten other ridiculous spells I'm not even aware of )?

Because they're not abused / well known enough to the point of needing it to be nerfed into the ground. Meanwhile PM's are a small plague that fit into a number of builds. While wild mages you just kind are another slightly more OP version of it's base. (Or less op to some people perhaps.)

RapidReload wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:10 am PM levels already only count as half a caster level. Don't ask they be nerfed, instead fight their summons like you would undead and enjoy the game. Really they can absolutely be beaten. Don't touch them.

Me: *kills one set of summons*
Palemaster: Oh neat *summons another pack then touches me with a DC42 bone arm*

Nitro wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 2:18 am

RapidReload wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 1:10 am PM levels already only count as half a caster level. Don't ask they be nerfed, instead fight their summons like you would undead and enjoy the game. Really they can absolutely be beaten. Don't touch them.

Me: *kills one set of summons*
Palemaster: Oh neat *summons another pack then touches me with a DC42 bone arm*

*then summons EDK*
*then summons mummies again*
*still has 67 AC*

I can agree with you that palemasters are powerful builds, right up there behind Paladins and Druids in my opinion. However, I think that some of your points are off a touch or perhaps a bit biased.

Being that palemasters largely depend on summons, which are nearly always undead, there is no excuse really for a Palemaster killing a cleric or a nearly pure caster. Pure casters don't check AC for most spells obviously and they are far superior casters. Palemasters have traded off part of their casting ability for a superior AC and therefore a better defense against melee. Additionally, if a paladin even brushes that holy sword against a Palemaster they are done, but that probably goes without saying, as this is true for nearly every class.

It seems like you have focused a lot of your attention on how hard it is to kill palemasters. I also agree that this is true but the same goes for any high AC character on Arelith. Again in my opinion most of your powerbuilds on Arelith are just high AC characters rolling around with healing pots staying alive long enough for vampires, which should of just been wof'ed to begin with, to get lucky. My point is that the AC may not be the underlying problem so much as the fact that there is no cool down on healing potions. I've personally seen upwards of 30 healing pots consumed by the same character in a single fight.

In addition to the above statements the 1 for 1 or half caster level for the purpose of spell resistance is not even working correctly across the board. If anything the Palemaster is still busted right now along with healing pots.

Ninjaturtle wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:37 amMy point is that the AC may not be the underlying problem so much as the fact that there is no cool down on healing potions. I've personally seen upwards of 30 healing pots consumed by the same character in a single fight.

Every character is kill able with enough planning / players. But I don't think it's a good idea to put a timer on heal potions. I might ague that reducing the heal level would be fine. But putting a cooldown on healing potions without doing anything to healing kits will just be a flip effect of giving whoever invested in heal / had the points to put into heal the advantage.

Ninjaturtle wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:37 amMy point is that the AC may not be the underlying problem so much as the fact that there is no cool down on healing potions.

But that's completely irrelevant to this thread. If heal potions are a problem, then they're a universal problem.

The largest issue with PM right now is that its free +10 AC puts it outside of the bounds of what normal AB can contend with. When you have a class with AC so high that special abilities are required simply to have a chance of hitting it, (outside of nat20s) the AC is undeniably a problem.

we'll have to look at the changes that are proposed to come

just look what happened with dragon shape! it's a confidence booster for what's to come being the right choice.

Kreydis wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:55 am Every character is kill able with enough planning / players. *snip*

This is true, but if it regularly takes upwards of five characters to reliably defeat a single character, and those five are even remotely built in the pursuit of their class core mechanics, something is a little off, balance-wise.

Mathematically speaking, I agree with all of Jack and TRM's points.

But, I also don't care that much; I've never been the biggest proponent of 'balance' in a 3.0/3.5 co-op-based system. It's more like a fighting game- every character can do something ridiculous and broken at high skill caps, but some of those skill caps are higher than others, and some of those broken things are more limited than others.

If I need to organize a party of five people to kill someone like they're Abazurr, good for them for getting five people involved just by virtue of their reputation. In a perfect world where things are well-communicated, hopefully everyone involved has fun, and it certainly stands to be more exciting than a single one versus one encounter in the wilds unnoticed by anyone else (although those can have their place and importance, too!)

I am aware we do not live in a perfect world, but I enjoy trying to pretend, at least while I'm here. YMMV.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:33 am But, I also don't care that much; I've never been the biggest proponent of 'balance' in a 3.0/3.5 co-op-based system. It's more like a fighting game- every character can do something ridiculous and broken at high skill caps, but some of those skill caps are higher than others, and some of those broken things are more limited than others.

I agree with you in one respect - 3.0 / 3.5 D&D has never been, and does not need to be, balanced.

I disagree that skill caps can elevate builds beyond their ability like a fighting game. Panda won Tekken; Monk 30 will never win PVP against someone who's got their head screwed on correctly.

ATM the PM serves as a counter to melee meme builds for the purposes of the arelith perfect imbalance PvP diagram (having that is important).
Nerf it and it becomes obsolete for melee characters to spin out of control.

The offensive capabilities of a cookie-cutter PM build are quite mediocre when compared to pretty much any other "optimal" arelith build.
Deal with their undead summons (enter Cleric or any character with UMD) and they diminish to being a melee combatant sporting an AB insufficient to hit a barn.

HA GOTEM I DIDNT ROLL wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 5:20 am we'll have to look at the changes that are proposed to come

just look what happened with dragon shape! it's a confidence booster for what's to come being the right choice.

But do you even kensai much nowdays mah friend?

ATM the PM serves as a counter to melee meme builds for the purposes of the arelith perfect imbalance PvP diagram (having that is important).
Nerf it and it becomes obsolete for melee characters to spin out of control.

The offensive capabilities of a cookie-cutter PM build are quite mediocre when compared to pretty much any other "optimal" arelith build.
Deal with their undead summons (enter Cleric or any character with UMD) and they diminish to being a melee combatant sporting an AB insufficient to hit a barn.

wizard PM is also an alternative to the melee PM that is also very strong and liably the most undefeated in 1v1 pvp. i wouldn't take damage during pvp so i stopped carrying heal potions. it's that strong! it's unneeded.

But do you even kensai much nowdays mah friend?

idk what this means i was very serious about the dragon shape changes being a positive change towards balance.

Is having a hard counter to WM’s really such a bad thing? *wink wink*

Here I was thinking EDK countered WMs.

The Rambling Midget wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 4:39 am

Ninjaturtle wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:37 amMy point is that the AC may not be the underlying problem so much as the fact that there is no cool down on healing potions.

But that's completely irrelevant to this thread. If heal potions are a problem, then they're a universal problem.

The largest issue with PM right now is that its free +10 AC puts it outside of the bounds of what normal AB can contend with. When you have a class with AC so high that special abilities are required simply to have a chance of hitting it, (outside of nat20s) the AC is undeniably a problem.

It’s not at all irrelevant to this thread. He’s saying having the tanking capability synergises with the fact that you can both drink healing potions to survive indefinitely while kiting and allowing whatever rediculious summon the Arelith dev team thought it was a good idea to put in the game to widdle down you opponent. The is another build or two just as good at it. It’s not rocket science.

Back to the OPs point, you could have built a paladin or cleric who could ball up any PM build and throw it in the trash in the amount of time it took you to write out this dissertation, and we both know it.

I’m pretty sure PMs are the next cleric before the meta shifts off the current cookie WM builds, sporting eye-candy like damage to something that doesn’t have glaring weaknesses.

Just my two cent here :


First of all the critical hit immunity is not what people complain about,to those that think everyone is angry because it is a counter to WM. Well you are wrong.

The AC is so high they are basically crit immune already even without the critical immunity feat. Just because they reach AC so high even with a 20 you wouldn't be able to pass.

I have seen palemasters sit at 83 AC fully warded. And fought others that I caught flatfooted,with 54 AB. and still missed every attack on.

When an entire faction needs to equip themselves with gonnes just to shoot down one person because nothing else /works/. I think that calls to a nerf.

And while opinions differ on how the class should be nerfed. I stand welcoming to whatever change that comes. You may be a PM player or not, but the joy of every class is to have strengths to use, and weaknesses to ward against. Every class has those, while some not as appearant as others. Save for the palemaster which currently is blessed with 3 epic feats +free AC +critical immunity and other boons. Without having to give up anything.

As for people saying that Palemaster (melee) offensively is weak. With your untouchable AC you can literally shug true strike potions at point blank from your enemy then proceed to bash their head in without being hit once.

I will preface this by saying that Palemaster is a very powerful class and is probably has what I see as the second strongest build in Arelith at the moment.

Now, with that out of the way...

Palemaster is hardly a PvP threat in direct combat. Almost all of it's power comes from it's summons and it's ability to hit/do damage is limited by the fact it is a 1/2 AB class that you're at best getting to around 21 BAB at level 30. Standard AB with a +5 weapon and focused AB feats/Battletide buff is 46, but that's assuming the Palemaster is not in Improved Expertise which will lower their AC to the 60s. High and VERY hard to hit but some tricks can get through/around. Sure, there are caster PMs out there and I am sure some of them built for Deathless Master Touch, but the majority did not. It's a DC 25 for them assuming minimum investment of Int/Cha and built for the classic "Death Knight" style that really the majority are playing them as. 31 with gear. It's not that overwhelming.

The biggest threat that a palemaster provides is a difficult to kill summoner with access to the ability that wins most PvP with minimum effort. But they aren't alone in that and so many people say how easy it is to remove, I suspect because they like their Cleric/Druid/Wizard/Sorcerer having the same trick because most of the time it will work. Handle that and you've handled the biggest trick they have. They "might" have Hellball/GRuin with backlash damage, but I doubt it. Their other summons can do quite a bit of damage and have very strong utility in party play, but if you can handle those, then you're dealing with an average 4 AB warrior with crit/stun immunity and a lot of AC. You can shoot them with a gonne. They can healkit/heal potion until you get bored, and then it's stalemate. That's their real major power. It's hard to "win" against them.

But, apart from Dragon Knight being what it is, the Palemaster doesn't have too much that is a threat that makes it devastating, even with the major buffs to encourage caster types. The average AC a Palemaster has with it's usual buffs and haste while hiding in Improved Expertise is 76. You won't kill them, they won't kill you after you handle their summons. Fight over.

I do think they need tweaking and a few nerfs, but the strength of this class is in it's godly AC and critical immunity with EMA. Dragon Knight causes a problem because it is a "I win" button in most fights, but again, 4 other classes have that same problem and arguably similar characteristics. Clerics (Especially Healer Clerics) have very good recovery from damage, more summon access, and spells like Death Domain Harm, Storm of Vengeance, and Implosion with better HP, and very impressive AC in their own rights depending on setup and extended haste and Greater Sanctuary for avoidance/control. Druids are basically a Palemaster summon undead party with the more tolerable Elemental Swarm (With animal shapes for even easier RP allowance), have access to many forms with ridiculous AC, HP, saving throws, and critical immunity/stun immunity, and plenty of amazing crowd control spells. Are we going to suggest nerfing these after because they also have the same access to the things Palemaster had as it's strengths and other things as well?

Wizards and sorcerers are not as impressive as the divine pair defensively, but still have plenty of high save or die/control spells, summon access, and plenty of build flexibility for whatever you want. While I don't rate their effectiveness as highly because I think the Arcane Spellbook is very weak compared to the divine ones, you still have many useful RP tricks and the ability to make what you want for fun and still have the same access to the Palemaster's strongest trick offensively.

I think the focus on the nerfs suggested by the OP are overkill to the point that it wouldn't make the class very fun. I wouldn't mind seeing changes to encourage it more to a caster role than a melee role but I think Haks are going to be needed to really do that.

Palemasters are the evil brothers of the druids.

Druids get all the stuff palemasters get right?

High AC , crit immune in shape , loads of summons and 800 HP and a return damage in fire element shape and accest to free hellball greater ruin that they can use wile shapped.

Nobs wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 9:49 am Palemasters are the evil brothers of the druids.

Druids get all the stuff palemasters get right?

High AC , crit immune in shape , loads of summons and 800 HP and a return damage in fire element shape and accest to free hellball greater ruin that they can use wile shapped.

Nerf Druids please.

Several people have noted that the real problem here is the unreasonably high AC.

I agree. Furthermore, I'd ask you to think about the theme of the PM. Is a PM thematically intended to wade into the middle of a melee anyway? No, even the name should tell you otherwise, the PM is a master of undead ... in other words, summoning. The pale master's goal is to live forever. He's not going to take stupid risks like that.

In my opinion, the summoning buffs are warranted. It fits their theme and makes their summons stronger than other casters using the same spells. However, that AC just doesn't fit the theme. So, what can be done?

Disallow armor/shield? A thematic pale master shouldn't want them anyway.
Disallow Epic Mage Amor? Same reason.

For those who will now say the class would be unplayable... you aren't thinking thematically. Using the same (thematic) strategy of a Pale Master that I've used before, I would still be able to PVE almost anything on the server with LITERALLY zero risk. Yes, PVP would now be harder, but that's the complaint here anyway!

Skald Haldi wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 10:41 am Several people have noted that the real problem here is the unreasonably high AC.

I agree. Furthermore, I'd ask you to think about the theme of the PM. Is a PM thematically intended to wade into the middle of a melee anyway? No, even the name should tell you otherwise, the PM is a master of undead ... in other words, summoning. The pale master's goal is to live forever. He's not going to take stupid risks like that.

In my opinion, the summoning buffs are warranted. It fits their theme and makes their summons stronger than other casters using the same spells. However, that AC just doesn't fit the theme. So, what can be done?

Disallow armor/shield? A thematic pale master shouldn't want them anyway.
Disallow Epic Mage Amor? Same reason.

For those who will now say the class would be unplayable... you aren't thinking thematically. Using the same (thematic) strategy of a Pale Master that I've used before, I would still be able to PVE almost anything on the server with LITERALLY zero risk. Yes, PVP would now be harder, but that's the complaint here anyway!

I think starting to nerf/buff things on how "thematic" they are might be a rabbit hole we'd all be well-advised not to go down. Don't think there's anything thematically wrong about PMs being more resilient than other casters, it just has to be done in a way that's mechanically balanced within the greater picture.

Disciprine Come From Within wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:26 am Druids are basically a Palemaster summon undead party with the more tolerable Elemental Swarm (With animal shapes for even easier RP allowance), have access to many forms with ridiculous AC, HP, saving throws, and critical immunity/stun immunity, and plenty of amazing crowd control spells. Are we going to suggest nerfing these after because they also have the same access to the things Palemaster had as it's strengths and other things as well?

Wizards and sorcerers are not as impressive as the divine pair defensively, but still have plenty of high save or die/control spells, summon access, and plenty of build flexibility for whatever you want. While I don't rate their effectiveness as highly because I think the Arcane Spellbook is very weak compared to the divine ones, you still have many useful RP tricks and the ability to make what you want for fun and still have the same access to the Palemaster's strongest trick offensively.

I think the focus on the nerfs suggested by the OP are overkill to the point that it wouldn't make the class very fun. I wouldn't mind seeing changes to encourage it more to a caster role than a melee role but I think Haks are going to be needed to really do that.

I'd be very worried, if druids aren't on some sort of list poised for nerfs, because they are every bit as disgusting as PMs, as you pointed out.

We could also thematically ban all scroll use for non-caster classes...

Since the topic of WMs keeps coming up, and specifically the point about them being able to actually hit PMs, let me clarify a few things with my favorite tool: FACTS and LOGIC (but mostly basic math cus NWN isn't that hard of a game for math).

Your average 20/7/3 Fighter/WM/Bard gets 49 AB with a Rapier/Scimitar, 47 AC with Barkskin unhasted and not in Expertise, and deals an average on-hit damage of 40 (with ~8-9 of that being Elemental/Energy) across 4 APR, 5 hasted.
Bear in mind that the AB spread is +49/+44/+39/+34(/+49 hasted).
Spoiler: AB/AC/Damage math.

AB: 49
25 (BAB)
16 (30 base STR, buffed to 42)
3 (WF/EWF)
3 (Rapier/Scim MDam Attack Bonus)
1 (WM Superior Focus)
1 (Epic Prowess)

AC: 47
10 (Base)
6 (Tumble)
2 (Armor Skin)
1 (Dexterity)
8 (Fullplate)
3 (Adamantine Armor Bonus)
3 (Adamantine Helmet Deflection Bonus)
3 (Tower Shield Base)
3 (Adamantine Shield Bonus)
3 (Fighter level 5/10/15 Armor/Shield/Deflection Bonus)
1 (Boots Dodge)
4 (Barkskin)

Damage: 40 | 1d6 = 3.5 on average, 1d8 = 4.5 on average
1d6 (Rapier/Scimitar Base Weapon Damage, PHYSICAL)
16 (42 Buffed STR mod, PHYSICAL)
6 (Masterly Damask Bonus, PHYSICAL)
6 (Weapon Spec/EWS, PHYSICAL)
4 (Permanent Essence Bonus, ELEMENTAL/ENERGY)
1d8 (Temporary Essence Bonus, ELEMENTAL/ENERGY)


Your average 16/10/4 PM/Fighter/Bard gets 40-43 AB (depending on weapon choice and feat selection), 61-65 AC (again depending on feat selection, usually 63 on average) unhasted and not in Expertise, and deals an average on-hit damage of 38 (with ~8-9 of that being Elemental/Energy) across 3 APR, 4 hasted.
The AB spread (we'll save of 42 AB as this seems to be rough average) is +42/+37/+32/+27.
Spoiler: AB/AC/Damage math.

AB: 42 | Some builds don't take Epic Prowess, some builds don't use Rapier/Scim and go for +4 weapons instead. Hence this being "Average"
20 (BAB)
15 (28 base STR, buffed to 40)
3 (WF/EWF)
3 (Rapier/Scim MDam Attack Bonus)
1 (Epic Prowess)

AC: 63
10 (Base)
6 (Tumble)
2 (Armor Skin)
10 (Pale Master Bone Skin Untyped Bonus)
0 (Dexterity of 10; Cat's increases this by 1)
8 (Fullplate)
3 (Tower Shield Base)
3 (Adamantine Shield Bonus)
1 (Boots Dodge)
5 (Epic Mage Armor: Deflection Bonus)
5 (Epic Mage Armor: Natural Bonus)
5 (Epic Mage Armor: Dodge Bonus)
5 (Epic Mage Armor: Armor Bonus)

Damage: 39 | 1d6 = 3.5 on average, 1d8 = 4.5 on average | Some builds use base 1d8 weapons, which adds 1 avg. damage
1d6 (Rapier/Scimitar Base Weapon Damage, PHYSICAL)
15 (40 Buffed STR mod, PHYSICAL)
6 (Masterly Damask Bonus, PHYSICAL)
6 (Weapon Spec/EWS, PHYSICAL)
4 (Permanent Essence Bonus, ELEMENTAL/ENERGY)
1d8 (Temporary Essence Bonus, ELEMENTAL/ENERGY)


PM gives up roughly 8 AB, but gets 16 AC for it. A 1h WM hitting a Palemaster on their first attack needs to roll a 14 or higher, which is a 35% chance to hit. The next hit requires a 19-20, which is a 10% chance to hit. All successive strikes (until the possible hasted one) require a natural 20 to hit.

A PM hitting a barkskin-warded WM requires a 5 or higher on their first attack roll (80% chance to hit), a 10 or higher on their second (55%), and a 15 or higher on their third (30%). A hasted 4th attack comes at an 80% chance to hit as well.


And yes, I'm aware other things to buff the WM exist, like Truestrike potions, Haste wands, etc. But those also exist for PMs, hence my not including them in this thread.
Some food for thought for the Truestrike Fans among you: a PM can tank a Truestrike by going Hasted into Improved Expertise at which point they have 77 AC vs. a 1h WM's 66 top AB, whereas a WM can't, even hasted in Improved Expertise, do near the same with only 61 AB vs. a PM's 59 AB.

---

Another main thing that people seem to be missing with my nerf suggestion is that yes, I'm gutting PM of its dumb AC levels.

My first suggestion removes 10 AC, bringing them to a still high 53-55 AC with a single spell that stays up basically forever.

The second removes about the same AC, since without EMA they would still get their Bone Skin at half (+5), but have to use Adamantine armor/helmet and Barkskin wards to get up their AC.

The third option puts them on-par, AC-wise, with a WM.

But here's the catch: They're STILL immune to critical hits and sneak attacks, two of the largest forms of physical damage in the game. Even with WM AC of 47, a PM makes a GREAT tank because it can sit in Expertise and soak the occasional blow without having to worry about some backstabber coming out of the woodwork to do 300 damage in a flurry to it.

Take this as you will. As Shadowy Reality said, there are apparently nerfs already in the works so that renders much of my point here null and void.

Sartain wrote: Fri Mar 22, 2019 11:55 am We could also thematically ban all scroll use for non-caster classes...

This would literally be a hard-buff to Pale Masters.