Arelith

Zed wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:18 pm The issue with having arelith *not* adhere to FR lore is the fact that there is no true recording of the goings-on for arelith that players can immediately get to and reference.

If there was a document within the wiki that both specifically stated that arelith is a branch off of FR and "heres the major events your character would likely know about coming onto the island either through npc rumors or otherwise"

It would be easier for a lot of players (especially new players) to reference without breaking into spoilers.

Past events would be great, not everyone knows about wharftown, benwick etc..

It would be nice to have a sort of "players lore handbook" of COMMON knowledge things for reference

I so much agree. As it stands now every character either starts off as being from somewhere else or suffering from convenient amnesia. And considering how much this is touted to be an RP server it honestly seems lazy that the setting info you get to make your character is next to nothing

We're dipping into the realm of telling people they're doing it wrong.

As a long time player, I assure you that the best way of getting people to become better RPers is to show them how to do it ICly.

Said player's handbook would also be very hard to keep updated without a dedicated team. And enforcing something like making people have to read up on lore before even thinking about creating a character, intrinsically goes against the design of a friendly and welcoming place for beginners to practice RP.

No one was born a RPer, some it came on more naturally. Some it took years of practice and observation.

I never want to have to force someone to know the lore just so they can play on Arelith. It's not necessary, and only makes it harder for new people to get into this hobby that I love.

There would be nothing that would require you to HAVE to read something. I find that notion to only ever come from toxic players (IE: Go read the handbook)

The issue is that Arelith treats certain monsters, Races, factions (especially) ENTIRELY different due to a global history that players have zero idea about.

Let take an example of banites for a second. In Faerun they are far reaching and are evil, yes, but they are literally accepted in society in places they arent actually at war with as a sort of necessary evil.

On arelith they are not an "Accepted evil" In most cases they are outright hunted.

Now put yourself in the shoes of somone who has never, ever heard of arelith, logging in and making a banite character in cordor, where preaching there (albiet not right now i understand theres some IC stuff going on, but on a NORMAL day of the week if you catch my meaning) would get you killed.

any anyone that would like to argue the negative or counter argue that can go ahead and create a brand new character, and stand outside of the cordor gates and just simply state "Praise Bane" as people walk into the gate, I would like to know how many average times it would take before you were surrounded or accosted by a passerby because that phrase, while common in FR, is an INSULT on Arelith.

things like this belong in a book or an article, and can be curated by whomever wishes to do so. But Im talking the major attitudes over things, which are either vaguely stated, or blatantly not stated at all.

Zed wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:47 pm Snip

I played a baneite and was never hunted simply for that, one can't openly preach the faith in cordor. There have been times they were banned when they were at war with the city. That's about it. But as a persistent world setting, you are at the mercy of those who came before you,. For instance if the bane faith has tried to violently overthrow cordor. murder it's leaders, kill guards, attempt to assassinate the king etccc a dozen times in the past then it would be safe to assume they are going to be totally hated by the city for a long long time. But you also have to expect a faith based on tyranny and worship bane or die is never going to be welcomed in many cities with open loving arms. generally it will be come in, do your business, and don't cause trouble.

JubJub wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:16 pm I played a baneite and was never hunted simply for that, one can't openly preach the faith in cordor. There have been times they were banned when they were at war with the city. That's about it. But as a persistent world setting, you are at the mercy of those who came before you,. For instance if the bane faith has tried to violently overthrow cordor. murder it's leaders, kill guards, attempt to assassinate the king etccc a dozen times in the past then it would be safe to assume they are going to be totally hated by the city for a long long time. But you also have to expect a faith based on tyranny and worship bane or die is never going to be welcomed in many cities with open loving arms. generally it will be come in, do your business, and don't cause trouble.

I think you are not understanding the example that I am setting forth here. regardless, those new players do not KNOW outright that banites are hated on arelith. The point is to have a document that can guide new players to understand the world, and the common knowledge things that they would not know coming even from FR lore, where banites are generally allowed to preach in towns provided that disallowing it means those towns are subject to outright destruction, thus it being a necessary evil.

the point is not making a statement about being a banite, it is an example to show that there should be some sort of guide available to new players so that they do not have to FOIG things that they should know just from talking to people on the boat ride to arelith, or people that would be commoner-turned-adventurer, without having to play the server for a year to learn all the intricacies

Durvayas wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:27 am Honestly, at this point the thread is just going to devolve into circular logic of "No U" and "U R doin' It wrong". Lock?

Why call for a lock? Just let people talk it out. You don't solve problems or misunderstandings by sticky-taping people's mouths closed and sweeping the topic under the carpet.

I'd actually argue that all the passive-aggressive thread locking on the forums these days is a negative thing. It just creates more tension and leaves issues to fester.

Back on topic, FR lore does apply, but Arelith has a few considerations on it. The first being Arelith's own history. Banites might be welcome everywhere else, but our particular brand of Banites has a long history of being hostile, pervasive and dilapadating. This is what has been established and reinforced through RP, and takes precedence over default lore. So while FR lore is important, how Arelithians have chewed and digested that lore is what matters more. The second is mechanics. Some aspects of lore are just not possible without a DM watching over everything 24/7, and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Where are people getting this notion that Banites are accepted as a "necessary" evil most places? 27 nations declared national festivals on the day of Bane's death during the time of troubles. It's not specific to Arelith.

Even if you take many of the smallest nations and make them part of that 27 (and I assure you the silver marches, dale lands, and sword coast all participated), that's easily more than 75% of the population of mainland Faerun. In fact, it is the single most celebrated event in all of Realms History.

The people on the mainland that "tolerate" Bane are the ones that are afraid if they fight back the Zhentarim will come and wipe them out.... or they're allies of the church.

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2019 9:16 pm Where are people getting this notion that Banites are accepted as a "necessary" evil most places? 27 nations declared national festivals on the day of Bane's death during the time of troubles. It's not specific to Arelith.

Even if you take many of the smallest nations and make them part of that 27 (and I assure you the silver marches, dale lands, and sword coast all participated), that's easily more than 75% of the population of mainland Faerun. In fact, it is the single most celebrated event in all of Realms History.

The people on the mainland that "tolerate" Bane are the ones that are afraid if they fight back the Zhentarim will come and wipe them out.... or they're allies of the church.

Just because people held parties for the "most evil religion of evil" Doesnt mean that durring the time they didnt uneasily tolerate them.

Banite churches are littered all over Faerun, destroying them leads to worse consequences than just letting them be.

Holding a party for the death of a tyrannical dictator, and actively hunting them are two competely different levels of hate.


Just because you hate something doesnt mean politically you cannot tolerate them in uneasy peace just because destroying them is objectively worse for the realm.

I swear though, if the banites had been hunted on Arelith and arelith wasnt insulated from FR as it is, Arelith would have been burned to the ground by Wyvern riders and Dragons of Zhentil by now just based on what Ive seen. Especially after wharftown.

But anyway thats just digression

The point is, Arelith Banites are not FR Banites, and Arelith Tormites do not behave like FR Tormites ... Etc... Etc... and it would be nice if there was a guide for people.

Disagree with a lot of your points. A new player coming in with a banite will quickly learn the hostility the island has to the religion. That's not bad. That's RP opportunity. The religion's notoriety has risen and fallen with the years. There were times you'd have banites preaching in the streets and obviously the opposite as well.

That's not bad. It's all roleplay. To claim FR banites aren't Arelith Banites is making a lot of assumptions and a lot of generalizations. Part of the joy in roleplay is redefining classic tropes.

Ork wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:53 am Disagree with a lot of your points. A new player coming in with a banite will quickly learn the hostility the island has to the religion. That's not bad. That's RP opportunity. The religion's notoriety has risen and fallen with the years. There were times you'd have banites preaching in the streets and obviously the opposite as well.

That's not bad. It's all roleplay. To claim FR banites aren't Arelith Banites is making a lot of assumptions and a lot of generalizations. Part of the joy in roleplay is redefining classic tropes.

First of all I'm quite sure the Banite example was just that, an example. Let's not get bogged down by nitpicking one example.

Secondly, if I'd made a Banite character (or similar) as a new player, expectating to be tolerated, I doubt I'd see being mercilessly hunted and heckled by team Paladin & Friends as much as a roleplay opportunity. More likely, I would feel extremely unwelcome because IC'ly it would seem like there's people are doing their best to destroy my character concept and OOC'ly there's no information readily available to say otherwise. So for a newbie it could just as well come off as elitist bullying.

I'm sure all the regular players who already know the implied history of the server loves a chance at driving away something Evil but it might easily also equate to driving away a player

When it comes to RPGs, the DMs/GMs running the game have the right to say that parts of the lore don't apply, and they are free to do with their campaign or server as they wish. Arelith is not Forgotten Realms. Arelith is based on Forgotten Realms. Ed Greenwood didn't create this sever, and he doesn't run it. The Forgotten Realms lore is a good starting point and still matters, however there are things about the server that are unique and there are things in Forgotten Realms that don't apply here. Forgotten Realms lore is not some holy text that strictly dictates what we can and can't do, it's a guideline.

Rockstar1984 wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 8:36 am When it comes to RPGs, the DMs/GMs running the game have the right to say that parts of the lore don't apply, and they are free to do with their campaign or server as they wish. Arelith is not Forgotten Realms. Arelith is based on Forgotten Realms. Ed Greenwood didn't create this sever, and he doesn't run it. The Forgotten Realms lore is a good starting point and still matters, however there are things about the server that are unique and there are things in Forgotten Realms that don't apply here. Forgotten Realms lore is not some holy text that strictly dictates what we can and can't do, it's a guideline.

Sure. Would be great if us new players had a place to find out where said unique things were documented so we don't have to guess, or FOIG that our character concept does not in fact work.

Sartain wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:28 am Sure. Would be great if us new players had a place to find out where said unique things were documented so we don't have to guess, or FOIG that our character concept does not in fact work.

Agreed. There are plenty of ig books that explain various parts of Arelith's history, but if the wiki had a lore section so you could plan a bit better that would be great.

Rockstar1984 wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:34 am

Sartain wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:28 am Sure. Would be great if us new players had a place to find out where said unique things were documented so we don't have to guess, or FOIG that our character concept does not in fact work.

Agreed. There are plenty of ig books that explain various parts of Arelith's history, but if the wiki had a lore section so you could plan a bit better that would be great.

IG stuff is for people who already know where to find it. Besides, how much would it suck to come across some people that explains why your character concept isn't viable, when you've already started playing?

Sartain wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:36 am IG stuff is for people who already know where to find it. Besides, how much would it suck to come across some people that explains why your character concept isn't viable, when you've already started playing?

Totally agreeing with you man. I said that if the wiki had a lore section explaining Arelith, it would be great. Definitely something we need.

Sartain wrote: Secondly, if I'd made a Banite character (or similar) as a new player, expectating to be tolerated, I doubt I'd see being mercilessly hunted and heckled by team Paladin & Friends as much as a roleplay opportunity. More likely, I would feel extremely unwelcome because IC'ly it would seem like there's people are doing their best to destroy my character concept and OOC'ly there's no information readily available to say otherwise. So for a newbie it could just as well come off as elitist bullying.

I disagree here as well. New players either get hooked on the quality of RP here or they don't. I think there may be ways to improve retention but throwing island LORE at their face isn't one of them.

Another piece is that new players should learn through experience that what happens IC does not equate to what people think OOC. Now, not everyone on Arelith thinks this way, and by and large that is connected to overt attachment to characters or projecting onto their characters - both bad things.

In the example above, what had the new player learned on first entering Cordor? It wasn't that he isn't liked, OOCly but that Cordor isn't a fan of Bane. They've learned this more authentically than having them sit and read lore before playing.

Ork wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 2:38 pm

Sartain wrote: Secondly, if I'd made a Banite character (or similar) as a new player, expectating to be tolerated, I doubt I'd see being mercilessly hunted and heckled by team Paladin & Friends as much as a roleplay opportunity. More likely, I would feel extremely unwelcome because IC'ly it would seem like there's people are doing their best to destroy my character concept and OOC'ly there's no information readily available to say otherwise. So for a newbie it could just as well come off as elitist bullying.

I disagree here as well. New players either get hooked on the quality of RP here or they don't. I think there may be ways to improve retention but throwing island LORE at their face isn't one of them.

Another piece is that new players should learn through experience that what happens IC does not equate to what people think OOC. Now, not everyone on Arelith thinks this way, and by and large that is connected to overt attachment to characters or projecting onto their characters - both bad things.

In the example above, what had the new player learned on first entering Cordor? It wasn't that he isn't liked, OOCly but that Cordor isn't a fan of Bane. They've learned this more authentically than having them sit and read lore before playing.

Well in perfect world where the new player had informed himself before-hand you might be right, but I'm guessing that just as many players could be intimidated by having to face a lynch mob on their first day, especially if they are of the impression that there is no in-game justification for it. Sure, some might rise to the challenge of it but it might just as well sour them to the place. Would you recommend newbie rolling a Banite in Cordor for the great RP opportunities it provides?

We're both just guessing though, I think OOC-documentation of the setting is good and well, a basic necessity for anything that's not a PvP arena server and well, you seem to disagree. Oh well, you seem decent anyway

I disagree primarily because of the nature in lore objectivity. If we provide lore for Arelith in an objective manner, we lose the nuance of subjective roleplay. Consider FR lore. Ann has invaded Maztica and slaughtered a lot of her people. If you asked players in game about this you'd find that they all unanimously agree this happened. Why? Because it's objectively presented in lore. There is no counter-play with maybe Amn never did those terrible things, etc.

A lot of events on Arelith are highly subjective. It depends on who you ask on what sort of tale you're told. A cordorian during the Wharftown destruction might say Wharftown was a harbor of evil and deserved it, but an older wharftowner might say Cordor slaughtered innocents.

Now if you present that event subjectively, you remove a lot of the nuance in counter-play. All the sudden everyone knows what happened and exactly how it happened.

Arelith is an organic world, and even the Arelith EA does a good job presenting events in a manner that doesn't remove their subjective nature. That's at least my thought on the matter.

You do not need to present the lore as a subjective piece though. You can and should present the lore historically

Wharftown was a settlement that wad destroyed by cordor. That is objective fact. A mew player just sees "ruined township" but there is history there

The balancing act lies in giving enough information so that a new player does not feel too lost at start, but also not revealing so much that we hinder the rewarding feeling that happens when you learn, discover or are taught something new.

One of my most vivid memories as a player is still the moment another player escorted my character from Cordor to the forest and, once there, through to the "hidden" city of Myon, all the while explaining lore and myth surrounding it. That kind of stuff is priceless, and I would never want to rob new players of such experiences.

A good way to look at it, for me at least, is to consider it as if we were at a table and about to start a new campaign. As new players pick their races and classes, the Dm offers them enough information to ground their characters on (where do i come from? What does it look like there?), without revealing all of his notes about factions, geography and politics.

Ork wrote: Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:12 pm I disagree primarily because of the nature in lore objectivity. If we provide lore for Arelith in an objective manner, we lose the nuance of subjective roleplay. Consider FR lore. Ann has invaded Maztica and slaughtered a lot of her people. If you asked players in game about this you'd find that they all unanimously agree this happened. Why? Because it's objectively presented in lore. There is no counter-play with maybe Amn never did those terrible things, etc.

A lot of events on Arelith are highly subjective. It depends on who you ask on what sort of tale you're told. A cordorian during the Wharftown destruction might say Wharftown was a harbor of evil and deserved it, but an older wharftowner might say Cordor slaughtered innocents.

Now if you present that event subjectively, you remove a lot of the nuance in counter-play. All the sudden everyone knows what happened and exactly how it happened.

Arelith is an organic world, and even the Arelith EA does a good job presenting events in a manner that doesn't remove their subjective nature. That's at least my thought on the matter.

I think we have a fundamentally different approach to this and I don't really see how occluding information OOC'ly, to players, is helpful in making meaningful choices for character concepts. If I want to play a genocide-denier I'd prefer it not to be by accident but by informed decision. Although as has also been mentioned in other threads on the same topic, general, broad strokes is fine. No need to reveal the secrets of the server but relevant, somewhat commonly known stuff like "this guy is the current king of Cordor", "Team Evil has a known base here and here", "Wharftown was destroyed by an angry old man and a timid young boy that came through a portal" and other things like that.

I think it's very possible to construct the lore in an unbiased way and present it in a way to give others an opinion about it.

Wharftown war, you would simply say: Cordor and Wharftown engage war in this year, which results in Wharftown's destruction. If I wanted to, I could present that divided opinion exists, and briefly describe each varied opinion in a way each alignment or person would have a reason to support one side of a narrative, or another, or even a third.

Just have it written by in-character bards and historians? If there are gaps in information, then so be it. Put some sort of disclaimer on the information that none of it is objective fact and that bards don't require citations.

Long story short, there's a lack of bards doing bardy things, wouldn't you say? (Written as somebody currently playing as an epic level bard)

A better idea would be having Encyclopedia Arelithica pages be displayed on the http://arelith.com/ page. Maybe a section that displays the latest pages/updates.

Arelith exists within the Forgotten Realms for the purpose of story-telling. The Forgotten Realms is the setting, Arelith & locations are within that setting. On our server, we've diverged at a certain point from the canon history of the Forgotten Realms, but it's still the Forgotten Realms.

As a rough guide, 3.5ed applies, 4 and onwards doesn't.