How would you make the sorcerer class more playable?

[Zed]

Seems there is a bit of confusion with my original post.

I asked what would make Sorcerers more PLAYABLE.

To clarify, Yes they do get more spell slots, that does not make them more playable. That just means they have more spell slots.


People do not generally play Sorcerers all that much, The question is, how to make them more playable, What sort of reason does one have to play a sorcerer over a wizard beyond... Winning at pvp? Maybe?

[Sea Shanties]

Maybe "popular" is the word you want then, not "playable."

I suspect sorcerers are played less because wizards are more fun to RP. They're nerds. They share spells and knowledge, they experiment, they have classes and lectures and masters and apprentices... Etc etc. It's easy to build and find your place in a community among wizards, one with a familiar structure echoing real life schools and workplaces and even "geek culture."

Sorcerers as charismatic/egotistical innate casters don't fit into that. I mean, they can, but they're not a natural fit into magic college-type RP like wizards are.

As it's been said there's also feats (the ESFs are so good and fun to use here, and sorcerers get fewer of them.) Skill points too-- wizards by being int. based can max out a number of skills when they dump bard, sorcerers not so much especially if not human. That alone has stopped me from making a sorcerer quite a few times.

I don't know what to do to "fix" them because as it's been said they are very powerful if built to be so. But they lack RP goodies and RP goodies is the draw for quite a lot of arcanist players.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Utility holds a lot of weight in pvp also. The ability to ward, scry, conjour and create portals. Alongside creating scrolls, wands and potions all contribute towards a factions success. Such is why you do not see many sorcerers running around, also the
sorcerer / divine dip seems heavily under-rated in a lot of people's eyes. They don't realize how incredibly powerful this build can be in the right hands.

[Eters]

I played a sorcerer before and there is two things I want to point out :

1- They very strong mechanically, less flexible than a wizard granted, but the fact that you have to do much with just the limited array of spells you have opens one to creativity in how to deal with different situations using a limited arsenal. (Also when you snap you can just drown people in like 15 IGMS cast in a row and change the scenery entirely.) I don't think they need any change mechanically as they are right now. At least on mine I easily fit three school focuses and an array of epic spells without issue and had no issue being relevant in a party with any sort of content.


2- On the RP point of view, As a sorcerer, magic to you is like breathing, wizards spend years before understanding how to make a light spell work, while for you, it is a part of your blood, just a snap of your fingers, a thought, and the spell manifests itself. Such can open ways to many sort of RP, the arrogant sorcerer that sees all wizard as "fakers", one that believes themselves the chosen of Mystra, etc... That doesn't mean your sorcerer can't be a scholar, but their understanding of magic is by feeling, and not formulas, and such can open interesting debates with the more nerdy types of wizards.

Such also means that sorcerer's emotions affect greatly how their magic manifests, and that aids to put depth into your character and their bond to magic, that flows literally through their blood.

TLDR, Sorcerers have their own charm and appeal, it's up to what people want to do, many have a desire to play the nerdy guy with a book rather than the innate guy, and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion. Any change to the class's RP would just make it a pseudo-wizard RP wise (which it is already mechanically) and remove all flavor from it.

[Sartain]

I do love the idea of adding bloodline feats to the sorcerer. Doing that you could also limit RDDA to the Draconic bloodline, and maybe make some sort of synergy effect for Fiend-blood sorcerers going Blackguard

[Astral]

Why do these discussions always get weighted more by PvP than by PvE?

Cause pve is just super easy, and also more frequently practiced so you git gud in pve more easily. In pve you also have party members and/or summons (which are the same for sorcs and wizards) so in pve there's really no comparison and no point arguing over it.

I asked what would make Sorcerers more PLAYABLE.

I think, in my personal opinion that sorcs are very playable, but perhaps they demand more creativity from the player's side, just like playing a paladin is a bit harder and more limiting than playing a WM merc with no morals, then sorcs have less 'cookies' to work with than wizards in regards to RP.

I suspect sorcerers are played less because wizards are more fun to RP. They're nerds. They share spells and knowledge, they experiment, they have classes and lectures and masters and apprentices... Etc etc. It's easy to build and find your place in a community among wizards, one with a familiar structure echoing real life schools and workplaces and even "geek culture."

Sorcerers as charismatic/egotistical innate casters don't fit into that. I mean, they can, but they're not a natural fit into magic college-type RP like wizards are.

This. Exactly this. Putting this into mechanics - wizards get more cookies, more ESF boons to play with and sorcerers in exchange are more powerful.

TL;DR. this thread is almost a copy pasta of "Vanila sorc VS weave master" thread few years back. Vanila sorc suddenly went nearly extinct cause everyone just wanted to pve better and buff their party endlessly but vanila sorcs were always the more powerful option. Same here, wizards are more of an easy mode in the RP department with all their cookies but a sorcerer is more powerful mechanically and can STILL be RPed just fine if you're a creative player that likes the challenge.

[Tarkus the dog]

Sorcerers are not overshadowed by the wizards at all. Personally if I had to choose between adding a wizard or a sorcerer to my party I'd always take the sorcerer. Power wise they are pretty equal, each performs better at certain things. There's an RNG element to the game that always exists and this is something that you need to keep in mind before making the "nobody plays monks, how to buff this perfectly balanced class so that more people play it?". In other words at certain time periods different builds/classes are more popular than others, today people might be playing palemasters but in a month or two people might switch to mass bard weaponmasters because Jack Oat woke up in the morning and felt like playing one and upon seeing this everyone else decides it's the best class in the game and made one as well.

This is also influenced by class changes. Recently spellswords were given a minor buff and I've seen a few spellswords rolling around. So I don't know, I think your post is a little bit overtuned. There's nothing wrong with sorcerers, they are not boring to play or any different to play, for that matter, than wizards. There are people playing the class right now, I'm pretty sure of it. Mages were always, and I mean always, the popular class on the server. If anything, I advocate that sorcerers have a 5% chance of typing -delete_character twice when casting IGMS. Thank you and have a good day.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Could also just rebalance the true flame sub-path. Especially with how crippling the new GSF - Shield can be towards a class that is already quite fragile and considered underpowered except in very specific conditions.

[Skarain]

I'll chime in, having played a Wizard to 14 and a Sorcerer to 22~23> (and ongoing).

The class is "fine" in it's core, but the main difference between a sorcerer and wizard is that a sorcerer needs to know what they want to build for.

Their lack of skill points (2 per level + int) and feats might discourage players who like the concept of Sorcerer but can't decide their spell school of choise for their dear life. I have remade my Sorcerer over 7 times, remaking them entirely from level 7-14 and leveled through the same zones over and over until i finally had an idea who the character is.

A wizard can take the cookie-cutter choices (conj, trans) and still at a later level have freedom of choosing between different options due to their grand amount of feats and skill points, making it easier to find out in roleplay who the character is and specialize from there.

Your fewer spell focus is compensated by considerably more spell slots which is handy in PvE. Get dispelled? No problem still have spare slots left. Hard fight and need more firepower? Convert those reserve buffs to maximized and empowered firebrands or IGMS. Got an army to buff? You got more animal spell buff casts than anyone. Dont need those buffs? Well you have more Shield spell to spam extended to remain fully protected for longer. PvE or "Travel", you got Mass Haste for days.

PvP alike, you have your strengths. There is no better Counterspeller in the game than a Sorcerer. Likewise, you can spam Dispells like no tomorrow if you have Morde and Greater Dispel Magic, or greater breach. Not to even mention the raw firepower of having sooooo many high level spell slots to throw about.

All-in-all, i think Sorcerers are in a decent spot. They could use a bit more skill points perhaps. Mine have 7 str (-2 str race) and 16 int (nonhuman) because i wanted more skills to spread about, but even that isn't a neccessarity.

In conclusion with Sorcerers.... Mine is a PvP focused Sorcerer/Ranger with high cha, con and int. Abjuration/enchanting/divination focuses, 3 metamagic, esf discipline, no epic spells and one feat to spare for either crafting for Dwemercraft III or enhanced detection skills. The character got all the tools in existence to track, follow, detect or divine for other PC's, who is superior spellcasting-counter counterspeller and dispeller. Spell focus Enchanting is mostly for flavour and High DC stuns/domination, the character being a Slaver from the Underdark. Will not hold their own very well in solo play PvE or PvE due to lacking Necromancy mummies or conjuration, but thats a character any party going to dungeon delving or raiding/pvp'ing will love to have on their side.

Sorcerers are good, can be completely devastating, and are a very fun class to play once you know what you want from the character.

[TroubledWaters]

Agree with the skill points issue. It makes shadow mage sorcs pretty much impossible to achieve and limits their multiclassing options.

A buff similar to rangers and assassins of +2 skills per level would go a long, long way for this class.

[CptJonas]

I wonder why we don't see more sorcerers than wizards, then.

Bcs for some reason people dont like PVP here... as you can see from all that cry on forums after every PVP event
Bcs wizzards are much more nice from RP standpoint....if you delete special bonuses from spellfocuses....you will have 80% of current wizzards rerrol to sorc

[Zed]

I guess to me it seems like the sorcerer according to most isnt underpowered, and it was of course not the original intent of the thread.

I think what I should say is that compared to wizards, there is a lot more flavor than with sorcerers.

At the moment sorcerers get to be generalists which is just wizards with less feats and more spell slots, which a wizard could theoretically accomplish a similiar amount of spell slots with enough Int. (Not fully mind you but close)

Whereas a wizard can be a spellsword, shadowmage, wildmage

Sorcerers can be a less utilitarian wizard, or a cannon

[Disciprine Come From Within]

Just so you know, you can make a Shadow Mage Sorcerer. In fact, that progression path is probably better in the hands of a Sorcerer if you went for a dedicated DC caster route. You know what schools you will focus in. You won't cry at the loss of Evocation as much, and a dip in anything with stealth access gives you a nice sneaky caster.

I don't think from the start the thread was saying sorcerers are mechanically inferior. But apart from the Paladin/Blackguard dip for armor/saves, Sorcerer doesn't get anything that is really so ridiculous compared to it's counterpart. And Wizard has more Spell Focuses which translate to more RP options.

I was thinking it over more, and I think what would be really thematically interesting for high level sorcerer play is either some sort of unique metamagic command to empower spells further or something that allows sorcerers to regain some of their spells out of combat without resting. The allure of the sorcerer over the wizard is less options but more power in the options they have. Their extra spells per day don't really matter very much in PvE, and while more missiles can mean an easier shot of winning PvP, power creep has made more options towards others to exploit the defenses of magic users clad in just clothing.

As for my comment before, I rarely PvP because the salt isn't fun to me. People tend to not enjoy PvP as a whole or get so hypercompetitive with fights that I really just want to not participate. So PvE is often where my sights are because that is where I have my fun. And while it can be easy, there are also some very interesting challenges in Arelith depending on class selection. The one that I've always hated, however can be found by playing a DC focused Wizard/Sorcerer. The saves for so many creatures in the server are high. Elemental resistances are abound, sometimes with little rhyme or reason for certain immunities. And anything you can do with a wizard/sorcerer you can do easier with a cleric/druid. The fun of a wizard/sorcerer is finding the weakness to exploit with your magic, but many creatures don't seem to be built so much with that in mind the closer you get to epic level.

[Zed]

Just so you know, you can make a Shadow Mage Sorcerer. In fact, that progression path is probably better in the hands of a Sorcerer if you went for a dedicated DC caster route. You know what schools you will focus in. You won't cry at the loss of Evocation as much, and a dip in anything with stealth access gives you a nice sneaky caster.

I don't think from the start the thread was saying sorcerers are mechanically inferior. But apart from the Paladin/Blackguard dip for armor/saves, Sorcerer doesn't get anything that is really so ridiculous compared to it's counterpart. And Wizard has more Spell Focuses which translate to more RP options.

I was thinking it over more, and I think what would be really thematically interesting for high level sorcerer play is either some sort of unique metamagic command to empower spells further or something that allows sorcerers to regain some of their spells out of combat without resting. The allure of the sorcerer over the wizard is less options but more power in the options they have. Their extra spells per day don't really matter very much in PvE, and while more missiles can mean an easier shot of winning PvP, power creep has made more options towards others to exploit the defenses of magic users clad in just clothing.

As for my comment before, I rarely PvP because the salt isn't fun to me. People tend to not enjoy PvP as a whole or get so hypercompetitive with fights that I really it out. So PvE is often where my sights are because that is where I have my fun. And while it can be easy, there are also some very interesting challenges in Arelith depending on class selection. The one that I've always hated, however can be found by playing a DC focused Wizard/Sorcerer. The saves for so many creatures in the server are high. Elemental resistances are abound, sometimes with little rhyme or reason for certain immunities. And anything you can do with a wizard/sorcerer you can do easier with a cleric/druid. The fun of a wizard/sorcerer is finding the weakness to exploit with your magic, but many creatures don't seem to be built so much with that in mind the closer you get to epic level.

probably more articulate than i have been putting it. I think that sorcerers do not have enough that seperates themselves from normal wizards, and with the PvE/PVP playing out the way it does, it seems like wizard is naturally the better fit. Unless you are purposefully standing in an area that melee characters cannot get to as a trueflame and just going nuts with autoquicken, Which i think in itself is a great change, i think that wizard will always be the best option.

Wizards/Sorcerers in general, from my experience have about 5-10 rounds in pvp to either win or lose. The extra spell slots really mean nothing.

Some sort of metamagic would actually be pretty good, If we were to consider maybe moving wizard/sorcerer closer to the 5e type of separation (Note i am not advocating wizards losing metamagic) I think it would be more worth playing a sorcerer, or atleast seeing more sorcerers in general.

[Nitro]

Wizards/Sorcerers in general, from my experience have about 5-10 rounds in pvp to either win or lose. The extra spell slots really mean nothing.

That's not true though. Having more spell slots is the difference between being able to keep pumping maximized IGMS or having to switch over to a less damaging spell, not having to make the choice about throwing out an extra cloud spell/CC/dispel or to save the slots for straight damage because you can do both.

In fact, it's in PvP where this becomes the most relevant, because it's a lot harder to survive against the extra hard hitting high level spells a sorcerer can pump out.

[Luckshoe]

Wizard and Sorcerer seem to be classic rivals with each other... They are always arguing over who is "better" or "stronger"... Personally I think all of the strengths of both the classes have been explained fairly thoroughly... Some will still like to argue that one is better at a certain thing and what not, but none of that actually matters! All that really matters is if you want to play a sorcerer, or a wizard.

For me Wizards are boring and old and they sit around all day looking at a book. It's also very hard to be able to relate to a wizard if you don't have a +28 int in real life. Sorcerers on the other hand, you just wake up every morning and you're ready for another adventure filled day and blasting things to smithereens. Which class is better? You tell me!

[Jack Oat]

Its no secret that sorcerers are completely overshadowed by wizards as far as class is considered far more useful than sorcs, (trueflame can be considered the exception)

lol

So if you had the ability to, what would you do to increase the sorcs to be atleast balanced with the wizard?

i wouldn't because it fills its own niche and is pretty good in a solid number of builds

[Rook]

I think the only thing they could do with is A ) PM not being broken in combination with sorcs and more importantly B ) give them more skill points to play with. They are already feat starved to hell compared to wizard, but the 2+INT skill gain is as atrocious as it comes.

Also makes 0 sense in regards to the lore/class theme, but, granted, that should only be a tertiary balancing concern, if any at all.

[Astral]

I think the only thing they could do with is A ) PM not being broken in combination with sorcs and more importantly B ) give them more skill points to play with. They are already feat starved to hell compared to wizard, but the 2+INT skill gain is as atrocious as it comes.

Also makes 0 sense in regards to the lore/class theme, but, granted, that should only be a tertiary balancing concern, if any at all.

I agree that wizards make much better use of the pale master class in that they get spell slots from pm lvls in spell levels they did not achieve through wizard lvls and sorcerers dont get that part from PM which makes wizards much MUCH better PMs than sorcs.

I disagree about giving them skill points for the same reason I would disagree about giving wizards free charisma.

[A Soul of Stone]

For the record for those interested, running a guild of arcanists:
3 wild mage
2 spellsword
1 pathless wizard
4 sorcerers
4 bards

That means we have 6 wizards, 4 sorcs, 4 bards; 2 of those wizards are spellswords which I would argue are not proper wizards (as their playstyle is entirely different and unique from other classes).

This would mean that our ranks contain equal number of proper wizards to sorcerers to bards.

There are three reasons you see more wizards than Sorcerers:
1) Both Wild Mage and Spellsword are unique to wizards and have reasons to play that style of character, I bet if they were available to sorcerers we'd see many sorcerer wild mages and spellswords too, if not more
2) 2/3 dwarves lose cha, sun elves gain int, Svirf lose cha - so it is more difficult to get as high Charisma as it is a high Intelligence, svirf just can't be sorcerers, and you have to be a shield dwarf if you want to be a dwarven sorc; while elf wizards get a bonus int.
3) Int gives you skills in addition to wizard bonuses, cha just gives you sorcerer bonuses unless you dip in paladin/BG (which gives a huge bonus to save/ac). Skills are amazing, and a ranger or rogue dip means you have a place for all those skills (while losing effectively nothing). Sorcerers can only really dip in paladin/BG.

My list above does not include elves and suddenly the numbers equal.

It would be nice if spellsword came to sorcerers; they'd sacrifice skills for better martial prowess.

That said, I love both my sorcerer and my wizard equally. Sorcerers are a little bit stronger in the 90% case, wizards can one up them in prepared circumstances though.

[Skarain]

There are three reasons you see more wizards than Sorcerers:
1) Both Wild Mage and Spellsword are unique to wizards and have reasons to play that style of character, I bet if they were available to sorcerers we'd see many sorcerer wild mages and spellswords too, if not more
2) 2/3 dwarves lose cha, sun elves gain int, Svirf lose cha - so it is more difficult to get as high Charisma as it is a high Intelligence, svirf just can't be sorcerers, and you have to be a shield dwarf if you want to be a dwarven sorc; while elf wizards get a bonus int.
3) Int gives you skills in addition to wizard bonuses, cha just gives you sorcerer bonuses unless you dip in paladin/BG (which gives a huge bonus to save/ac). Skills are amazing, and a ranger or rogue dip means you have a place for all those skills (while losing effectively nothing). Sorcerers can only really dip in paladin/BG.

To add to the 3) above, going paladin/BG dip, not only is it alignment-locked to Lawful Good or Evil, it also requires 13 STR for Power Attack>Divine Shield, which gets expensive for -All- Small races due to -2 STR, requiring more attribute points at character creation. Especially considering that as a Sorcerer you already have low hit and skill points per level, further liming possible (effective) character class/race combinations.

[Astral]

Both Wild Mage and Spellsword are unique to wizards and have reasons to play that style of character

Can add Pale Masters to that too. While palemasters arent locked for wizards only, wizards make much much better use of that class than sorcerers, making it so like 90% of the caster pale masters are wizards and the last 10% being people who chose sorc straight for RP with no regards to mechanics.

[_-HiM-_]

I was thinking about this the other day, relates to both wizards and sorcerers. Druids get their animal companions on a timed cool down, not sure why sorcerers familiars are not also treated like this.

[Sea Shanties]

I guess that's because druids and some rangers depend on their animal companions, they're strong fighters that only get more necessary into the higher levels. I think the cooldown is as much because they're lost on server transition as anything.

Most familiars are worthless in combat after the first few levels so it doesn't seem like as big a deal to have to rest to get them back. I guess being able to bring out and dismiss a pixie to open a chest every 10 minutes would be very useful, if that's something we actually want to see.

[Opustus]

A classic domain of magicry where sorcerers outperform wizards is the amount of spells and therefore the amount of counterspells sorcerers have to outlast the whole gamut of the wizard's spell list in the instance of a genteel magely duel. Maybe just make that edge over wizards a bit more visible by granting sorcerers a frugal amount of extra spells per day? This way a simple buff to sorcies might emphasise an in-built mechanical idiosyncrasy and it shouldn't be too direly off balance.