Is Use Magic Device Overpowered?

[Richørd]

Man, it's almost like UMD in general needs a nerf or we'd need something for the mundane characters to powercreep them up against all the UMD usage ...

... something like Kensai, which has been removed because of other, smaller balance issues that could've been easier to fix than this UMD mess that we are in now. :^)

[Azensor]

is umd itself over-powered? in my eyes not really.. but the value people put on it >.>

For instance i was thinking of a 20 fighter/ 10 pdk build, just the usual alt-itis kicking in and was curious how it would do, soon has i asked others about it what did they say?

"It's bad." well.. why is it bad? because it doesn't get umd.. honestly if we had some way to 'balance' mages/non-mages besides every non-mage also being a mage, that would be grand.

Edit. Just to clarify thats if i ask about any build that doesnt get umd, it's instantly labeled bad.

[CosmicOrderV]

The lat two posts have suggested implementing something to bridge the disparity between casters and non-casters, other than making them 'wanna-be-mages' let's say, via UMD. But really, why fix what isn't broken? What's the motivation to replacing UMD with something that will fill the same role?

That's just from the mechanical standpoint. If the net-result will be the same, why change it in the first place?

I'm more fond of concepts and themes, and even there, the idea that UMD should be 'nerfed' or replaced by some other system doesn't make a lot of sense. Eters touched on this, but I think there are more profound implications.

Just some baseline associations, from the perspective of a world where magic is normal. Anything 'supernatural' is magic. So the term mundane gets tossed around too much. A barbarian isn't mundane. Have you seen what they can do with the power of rage? That's some supernatural shiznit. They're harnessing an energy of some kind. It's a sort of magic, even if not as complex as the arcane stuff. If a barbarian has already figured out how to effectively utilize energy in this way to create some supernatural effects, why is it such a leap to say that learning how to use magic in other ways (UMD) would be out of the question? If anything it sounds par for the course. I would personally love to see more rewards for higher UMD investment, like being able to cast spells as rituals so long as you have UMD and a specific item, a la 5e.

That said, while the idea to give small skill bonuses to EVERYONE is an interesting notion, I do have to wonder what that would mean for balance purposes. I'm also a big fan of multi-classing. I feel like it's truer to a character's story, and that sort of blend of immersion and mechanics ought to be preserved and encouraged.

The goal then becomes how to best keep multi-classers and pure classes relatively on the level, with special appeals to both, while not letting one be too mechanically superior to the other.

Which brings us full circle. The system right now accomplishes this pretty well. Why fix what isn't broken? The Dev's typically do damn fine work.

[Archnon]

is umd itself over-powered? in my eyes not really.. but the value people put on it >.>

For instance i was thinking of a 20 fighter/ 10 pdk build, just the usual alt-itis kicking in and was curious how it would do, soon has i asked others about it what did they say?

"It's bad." well.. why is it bad? because it doesn't get umd.. honestly if we had some way to 'balance' mages/non-mages besides every non-mage also being a mage, that would be grand.

Edit. Just to clarify thats if i ask about any build that doesnt get umd, it's instantly labeled bad.

I am starting to think that UMD is necessary given the power of mages. The post on casting was particularly compelling. But what strikes me is this comment. That you have to take a dip in bard/rogue/shadowdancer and usually this means a bard dip. I understand that the 3 level bard dip at 27 serves other functions, notably a bluff/perform dump for disguise purposes, especially if you are evil/pirate/etc. however, what strikes me as a possible solution to keep this forced dip out and open up more combinations or even more pure class options is to make UMD a cross-class skill if possible. Then a pure 30 fighter could take 30 points into UMD to get the 15 required, It would increase the investment and you would then get a real conversation about builds and build designs, Suddenly 20fighter/10pdk is not a bad build anymore.

[CosmicOrderV]

Sounds like an elegant solution

[TimeAdept]

People taking a bard dip are generally doing so not just for UMD, but for the holy quartet of tumble, discipline, spellcraft UMD in a single class. These make up the four most mandatory abilities for every remotely optimized builds to have, outside specific gimmicks. Making UMD alone a cross class skill probably wouldn't change a whole lot - the builds that take bard as a caster are also doing so for tumble and discipline, and the melee builds that take it are doing for tumble and spellcraft. Classes that take rogue are doing it not just for UMD, but for Evasion, Sneak Attack, and Tumble.

Build that could get UMD elsewhere would skill dump for these other core three skills, but opening up those skills as well opens up other problems in builds, such as 23/7 fighter becoming the norm, meaning every WM now has a +5 weapon. It means every mage in the game becomes 100% pure class, with no sacrifices.

Use Magic Device is powerful. No way around it. I rate UMD's biggest power ss self sufficiency, which is necessary to get long in high level content in solos and sometimes duos, depending on the party makeup.

1: Zoo Buffs and Basic Utility Buffs. Wands get you access to stats buffs, barkskin, shadow conj mage armor, shield, freedom, and more. These are cornerstones for being able to function in high level content, and gear effectively. If PCs had access to crafted or otherwise viable versions of CL 10 stat buffs on potions, the requirement for UMD would melt away for a lot of builds, who could at least gear and stat effectively. Being forced to rely on CL 3 is a real kick in the gut. The loss of freedom/deathward/etc wands is still a pain, but can be partially supplanted by good saves.

2: PvP tools - most notably Word of Faith, Greater Restoration, and Spell Breach, as well as expensive consumables like Shadow Shield, Mords-Scrolls, and more. This also includes things like blind-deaf removal on wands. While the above is the cornerstone of PvE, these are the cornerstone of PvP, things you need to be able to use, and have answers to. This is something that doesn't have an easy fix, nor should it. You should be rewarded for investing in skills, and your reward for doing so is access to situtional tools and spells that round out your character.

Turning on the Hardcore Ruleset for UMD wouldn't solve anything - it would be an indrect buff to Humans, who are already used to taking 30-31 UMD builds in order to use racial gear, such as moonblades, dwarf axes, and now the Dead-Men Crosses and Black Scepters. These builds would be completely unaffected by such a change, as would most humans in general, who with 14 int, sometimes 16 or more, plus the human skill point, would easily be able to max out UMD, allowing them to continue to function just as they are now, with no changes whatsoever except the removal of likely Lore.

[Opustus]

Builds without UMD or high caster levels are responded with a polite equivalent of "lol build suck" in the build forum. I hate how crucial UMD is and how much it narrows down possible class combinations.

Improving the self-sufficiency of non-UMDers by adding either easily craftable or easily purchasable alternatives to zoo buffs and Imp Invis would make a big difference. Although I have to admit, I've already seen one NPC shop sell Dusts of Disappearance for 7 turn Imp Invis. Regular shops could sell Cat's/Bull's 3h zoo potions in bulk, whereas producing other potion stacks via Herbalism for 10h versions could be made a lot easier. Come to think of it, I dunno if such an NPC already exists in the module. Making Word of Faith roll for DC would make UMD a bit less appealing and possibly entice people to try out other things (translates to: RP characters of other class compositions!).

[Zavandar]

Idk why this topic crops up every few months when the search function exists. It's been talked to death.

This server is more balanced than it's ever been. UMD (and dipping to take other skills) factors into that balance.

Things like Time Stop, True Seeing, and Greater Sanctuary have been (rightfully) nerfed. Forcing people to take dips is good (do you people really want 30 cleric bclerics with an extra feat?)

These discussions are always held by purists who want something to complain about and don't actually care about the balance of the server. I have never played PnP. Arelith is my only window into D&D. Go figure, without something to compare it to and looking at it only for itself, I think the server is quite mechanically sound.

Yes, there will always be room for improvement. But dipping and UMD usage are core mechanics that the server has been built around, and these proposals are attempting to fix things that aren't broken.. by fundamentally breaking them.

/endrant

[Red Ropes]

also you can play characters without UMD and kick Snuggybear

[Subutai]

Builds without UMD or high caster levels are responded with a polite equivalent of "lol build suck" in the build forum. I hate how crucial UMD is and how much it narrows down possible class combinations.

Improving the self-sufficiency of non-UMDers by adding either easily craftable or easily purchasable alternatives to zoo buffs and Imp Invis would make a big difference. Although I have to admit, I've already seen one NPC shop sell Dusts of Disappearance for 7 turn Imp Invis. Regular shops could sell Cat's/Bull's 3h zoo potions in bulk, whereas producing other potion stacks via Herbalism for 10h versions could be made a lot easier. Come to think of it, I dunno if such an NPC already exists in the module. Making Word of Faith roll for DC would make UMD a bit less appealing and possibly entice people to try out other things (translates to: RP characters of other class compositions!).

I agree more or less entirely with this. For as much emphasis as certain classes get in terms of making them more playable (monk in the recent update, bard in the currently-popular thread, for example), I've never seen much in the way of making builds that don't dip for UMD more viable. While there will always be issues with non-UMD characters struggling against PvP mages, it would be really nice to be able to find a better medium place for them between "can fight mages in PvP" and "is a completely garbage build". I know that a lot of players on Arelith are extremely focused on optimal PvP builds, but for those players who aren't, being able to have some fun with builds that don't take rogue/bard/etc. levels could be a ton of fun is doing so wouldn't completely torpedo the character's utility without being followed around by another character who could buff them.

[Sea Shanties]

I agree more or less entirely with this. For as much emphasis as certain classes get in terms of making them more playable (monk in the recent update, bard in the currently-popular thread, for example), I've never seen much in the way of making builds that don't dip for UMD more viable.

I'd say the monk update makes playing a level 30 pure non-UMD monk very viable especially since they'd have access to a crazy amount of spell resistance. Druids and healer clerics can also operate quite well without UMD dips. That's.. about it I guess but competitive non-UMD concepts do exist.

I'd imagine figuring out how to do the same with fighters and other classes would be pretty difficult though. You pretty much have to mandate going "pure" to keep people from figuring out ways to get UMD in there and a lot of these classes just aren't designed that way, it's a game where they assume pretty much everyone is going to dip and people are going to zero in on combos the devs might not even consider. So should every class have a huge level 28 bonus that's tough to pass up? I have no idea.