Arelith

Vrass wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:44 am Summons should be more powerful then the summoner... thats the whole point and reason for being a summoner. Dragons especially, they should always be ten times stronger then any character because dragons are stronger by default. People being able to easily take on dragons by themselves and beat them is directly contrary to how it works in pnp, no single person ever defeats a dragon alone, even Elminster cant do it and he is the single most powerful person in all of Faerune. Only way it should be possible is with groups and even then your chance of winning should be no more then 50% at best. Dragons are gods compared to non-dragons, its as simple as that.

I can't believe someone actually has such a point of view. Lol

No classes should have abilities that make it so that the singular character requires a group to defeat them, and still win half the time anyway. That's silly. We're not discussing FR lore. We're discussing balance in a video game. Except in situations where the two can be aligned together (which is fairly often, to be honest), game balance generally takes precedence (ostensibly).

Scylon wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:10 am

Orian_666 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:04 am

Epic Dragon Knight: All Dragons:
-120 hp (this puts them at 350 before CL buffs)
DR -> Down to 15/+3 and 9/- (From 15/+6)
Physical DI: -> Down to 25% [20% if possible] (From 35%)
Duration: -> Down to 1 Round / 2 Level (From 2 Round / Level)
SR: -> Down to 28 (From 32)

Why would I waste a point summoning that? It's got a shorter duration then gate and no real benefits? Even has less SR then gate.

Unless of course you want Gate brought inline as well in which case we can just toss them both in the bin.

Because it'll do more damage than gate, and it'll survive far longer than gate, and it can't mechanically be dispelled like Gate.
Even with these changes it is still stronger than a gate summon, the shorter duration is to at least somewhat balance it out in comparrison, but even nerfed like this it's superior in almost every way. Plus it doesn't take a spellslot and will always be there when you need it (as long as you didn't already use it that rest period)
Also Gate SR is 22, I think you're looking at the Warlock summons maybe? So even with lower SR you still need to burn two rounds using scrolls (or rods) to WoF it because at 28 that's still enough to resist a scroll WoF if i'm not mistaken, but low enough that now a Greater Spell Breach scroll can be used to bring it down to be WoFed.

As i said im not advocating for that, it does not work in a game such as this. Dragons and summons are fine where they are now though, there is no need to mess with them further.

Orian_666 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:04 am What this does is set it to be /almost/ on par with all the main strengths of each of the elemental summons, not more powerful in all regards by a long shot but ultimately any role an Ancient Ele can fill the EDK can still fill, but just for a very limited time.
What this does is turn it into the "Panic Button" it's meant to be, not the best option to clear content, but the best option when the poop hits the fan and you need to drop a dragon to save your arse. Which makes it a valuable, but not game breaking, feat.

I don't think there's too much issue with EDK being used to clear content now that GS dismisses all summons. No one wants mages sitting in GS while their EDK smashes through everything. But when the mage has to be vulnerable, without even the panic of GS to help them (unless they're willing to lose their summon), having an EDK around long enough to handle content is fine by me, more or less.

I would like to see it (and elementals) nerfed a little more to prevent mages from being able to solo nearly anything regardless of build quality, just by hiding behind their summons, but I think they need to be so heavily prevented.

Moreover, when it comes to PvP, I don't see the problem with EDK giving a good advantage if the caster's opponent isn't smart enough to dismiss it. As long as characters can either A) access Mord's somehow reasonable, like through a craftable item, or B) summon SR is lowered enough to be vulnerable to Greater Spell Breach (and characters have reasonable access to it), I think it's fine. The issue with EDK between the UMD nerf and this EDK nerf wasn't that EDK was too strong overall, but that it was too strong in combination with being essentially un-dismissable without access to Mord's.

Subutai wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:24 am I don't think there's too much issue with EDK being used to clear content now that GS dismisses all summons. No one wants mages sitting in GS while their EDK smashes through everything. But when the mage has to be vulnerable, without even the panic of GS to help them (unless they're willing to lose their summon), having an EDK around long enough to handle content is fine by me, more or less.

The thing is apparently this nerf was specifically to counter it being used to solo PvE content, and had nothing to do with PvP... which is weird to me because anyone that can summon an EDK has several other options to solo that content anyway, content will always be soloable one way or another and the only way to fix that is to overtune that content, or undertune the solo methods which puts mages at too much of a disadvantage outside of PvE. Plus if it's PvE content you don't even need to GSanc, just send the summon in first to take the aggro and you're set.

"I spend a lot of time monitoring how dungeons are handled, and these summons were the one-stop-shop to defeat some of Arelith's most powerful monsters, creatures that should be defeated by a concerted group effort of PCs rather than a summon while the actual players hang back and watch." - Irongron

Subutai wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:24 am I would like to see it (and elementals) nerfed a little more to prevent mages from being able to solo nearly anything regardless of build quality, just by hiding behind their summons, but I think they need to be so heavily prevented.

Honestly i'd hate to see the elementals nerfed now because of the UMD changes specifically, as it stands I think mages now have the option, even if it's only barely, to actually rely on summons like their elementals in PvP encounters and I think that's a good thing. Any decent meleer won't have trouble dealing with them for the most part, and if they were to be nerfed for the sake of PvE then it'd take that aspect of them away from mages too, which isn't something i'm okay with.

Subutai wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:24 am Moreover, when it comes to PvP, I don't see the problem with EDK giving a good advantage if the caster's opponent isn't smart enough to dismiss it. As long as characters can either A) access Mord's somehow reasonable, like through a craftable item, or B) summon SR is lowered enough to be vulnerable to Greater Spell Breach (and characters have reasonable access to it), I think it's fine. The issue with EDK between the UMD nerf and this EDK nerf wasn't that EDK was too strong overall, but that it was too strong in combination with being essentially un-dismissable without access to Mord's.

I agree to an extent, which is why in my suggestion i'd see their SR lowered to 28, while still retaining decent stats (but still lower in general, I do feel they needed to be lowered a bit)

I fail to see the fascination with people expecting non magic wielder classes, to be entitled to the power to dispel/dismiss summons and mord casters.

I'll be happy to eat the nerf to stop that to be honest. Hell, I'll take a flat nerf to summons across to board if it keeps that silliness out.

In exchange, I would want to be able to actually do stuff in fights for PvE. As mentioned earlier Wiz/Sorc generally have no choice but to sit back and let our summons fight. If I was to cast spells on every group of mobs I would be empty in 15 minutes easy. The free spells I get from GFS are good in the early stages, but after about level 11, they are just garbage and I don't use them anymore. This is the same if I solo or group with people.

Scylon wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:42 am I fail to see the fascination with people expecting non magic wielder classes, to be entitled to the power to dispel/dismiss summons and mord casters.

I'll be happy to eat the nerf to stop that to be honest. Hell, I'll take a flat nerf to summons across to board if it keeps that silliness out.

In exchange, I would want to be able to actually do stuff in fights for PvE. As mentioned earlier Wiz/Sorc generally have no choice but to sit back and let our summons fight. If I was to cast spells on every group of mobs I would be empty in 15 minutes easy. The free spells I get from GFS are good in the early stages, but after about level 11, they are just garbage and I don't use them anymore. This is the same if I solo or group with people.

Frankly I agree with this almost 100%, I hate that the only "acceptable" balance option to summons is to give Mundanes some way to just delete them, it sucks, especially when you RP your character specifically as a summoner (my last character was exactly that).
I'd also take a complete overall nerf to them if it meant Mundanes no longer had the means to just remove them with a single item (or at least those means were extremely rare/expensive).
But unfortunately that does gimp us in PvE where as you say our main option is to rely entirely on those summons to make it through it all.

I guess an option would be to only nerf the end game summons, somewhat. Gate, EDK, BBOD, SCIX, Warlock and BG Summones, etc etc, but leave the other ones as they are. That way they wouldn't be as "devastating" in PvP but at least we'd still be able to level and experience the content when we can't find a group. That's a whole lot of work though, unfortunately.

As for the spell thing, I made a suggestion a while ago about changing Cantrips to be infinite cast but scale up as you level up, not too powerfully mind you but enough that they're about as useful (or a tiny bit more) than our current infinite spells, and to change the current infinite spells to either simply remove them, or to grant stronger ones but on a Cooldown.
Like how it works in 5th edition at the moment, cantrips are free to cast and as you get stronger so do they too, and it means there'll be a bit more variety regardless of what schools you focus in, and for all full caster classes too, druids and clerics also.
But it was rejected, can't remember why specifically.

The EDK has much stronger offense than the other summons.

- +6 AB over Gate summons.
- 4 APR before Haste. (Other summons are all 3 APR.)
- Pure physical damage; not easily mitigated by essences. (Gate summons all have three elemental damage types; up to 15 damage can be soaked by essences per attack.)

Furthermore, though the EDK summon has one less point of constitution than Gate summons, its hit die is d12 rather than d8. A 27th level caster with Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration would see a dragon with 180 hit points more than baseline for a total of 480 hit points. A Gate summon, for comparison, would net 130 hit points more than baseline for a total of 414.

While not extraordinarily tanky by any means, it will last roughly as long as many 30th level PCs if focused. For a summon that's capable of outputting significant damage if ignored, that doesn't strike me as a bad deal at all.

I would love to see the dragon changed into just an armored dude with wings. Some sort of half-dragon. We could possibly call him a "Dragon Knight." The dragon models are super awkward to use. Letting it path to its targets properly would make it a lot stronger without adjusting its numbers.

Orian_666 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:50 am

I guess an option would be to only nerf the end game summons, somewhat. Gate, EDK, BBOD, SCIX, Warlock and BG Summones, etc etc, but leave the other ones as they are. That way they wouldn't be as "devastating" in PvP but at least we'd still be able to level and experience the content when we can't find a group. That's a whole lot of work though, unfortunately.

That would be boring though. Give us some decent spells that are unlimited to make casters a little more action oriented, reduce the power of summons so you HAVE to cast these spells to clear content and remove the idea of "burst summons", giving even the higher ones good duration if they aren't burst anymore.

Make a few special exemptions for summon focused casters also.

Scylon wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:00 am

Orian_666 wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:50 am

I guess an option would be to only nerf the end game summons, somewhat. Gate, EDK, BBOD, SCIX, Warlock and BG Summones, etc etc, but leave the other ones as they are. That way they wouldn't be as "devastating" in PvP but at least we'd still be able to level and experience the content when we can't find a group. That's a whole lot of work though, unfortunately.

That would be boring though. Give us some decent spells that are unlimited to make casters a little more action oriented, reduce the power of summons so you HAVE to cast these spells to clear content and remove the idea of "burst summons", giving even the higher ones good duration if they aren't burst anymore.

Make a few special exemptions for summon focused casters also.

Sounds like you want to play a warlock, feylock to be precise

I don't know. The idea of summoning a half-dragon sounds rather odd to me. A bit too literal.

I feel EDK ought to be adjusted into a planar summon. With haks now available, renaming the feat would be trivial. Mechanically, EDK is a progression of Gate already. It only makes sense for the theme to match.

Peppermint wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:02 am I don't know. The idea of summoning a half-dragon sounds rather odd to me. A bit too literal.

I feel EDK ought to be adjusted into a planar summon. With haks now available, renaming the feat would be trivial. Mechanically, EDK is a progression of Gate already. It only makes sense for the theme to match.

Sounds good. I don't like taking Dragon out, but having more choice for the epic summons is a good idea.

Then just say its a dragon fighting in a much more convenient human form. I honestly don't care -what- the flavor is, I just hate having an epic feat that mostly blocks doorways and ramps instead of killing things.

Peppermint wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:53 am The EDK has much stronger offense than the other summons.

- +6 AB over Gate summons.
- 4 APR before Haste. (Other summons are all 3 APR.)
- Pure physical damage; not easily mitigated by essences. (Gate summons all have three elemental damage types; up to 15 damage can be soaked by essences per attack.)

Furthermore, though the EDK summon has one less point of constitution than Gate summons, its hit die is d12 rather than d8. A 27th level caster with Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration would see a dragon with 180 hit points more than baseline for a total of 480 hit points. A Gate summon, for comparison, would net 130 hit points more than baseline for a total of 414.

While not extraordinarily tanky by any means, it will last roughly as long as many 30th level PCs if focused. For a summon that's capable of outputting significant damage if ignored, that doesn't strike me as a bad deal at all.

I’m pretty sure all gate summons have 4 base apr being outsiders.

Morgy wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:19 am

Peppermint wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:53 am The EDK has much stronger offense than the other summons.

- +6 AB over Gate summons.
- 4 APR before Haste. (Other summons are all 3 APR.)
- Pure physical damage; not easily mitigated by essences. (Gate summons all have three elemental damage types; up to 15 damage can be soaked by essences per attack.)

Furthermore, though the EDK summon has one less point of constitution than Gate summons, its hit die is d12 rather than d8. A 27th level caster with Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration would see a dragon with 180 hit points more than baseline for a total of 480 hit points. A Gate summon, for comparison, would net 130 hit points more than baseline for a total of 414.

While not extraordinarily tanky by any means, it will last roughly as long as many 30th level PCs if focused. For a summon that's capable of outputting significant damage if ignored, that doesn't strike me as a bad deal at all.

I’m pretty sure all gate summons have 4 base apr being outsiders.

They do.

Oops! You're right.

I'm just going to leave that there as a mark of shame.

Peppermint wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 2:02 am I don't know. The idea of summoning a half-dragon sounds rather odd to me. A bit too literal.

I feel EDK ought to be adjusted into a planar summon. With haks now available, renaming the feat would be trivial. Mechanically, EDK is a progression of Gate already. It only makes sense for the theme to match.

Agreed. I hate "pocket dragons." Though Arelith already devalues super powerful planar beings like Balors into being big babies, by virtue of having them as base floor spawns and casual summons that anyone can fight, kill (generally, with ease!) and summon. So dragons don't seem like a big step up from that, all things considered.

It would be a lot, a lot, a lot of work to revert that paradigm.

I just think they should have been addressed with one nerf, monitored, and then nerfed or kept the same if the nerf was successful, as opposed to nerfed to the ground.

Apokriphos wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 12:38 am I am of two minds about this change. I feel that the Epic Dragon Summons 'were' ridiculously durable summons for a pvp perspective that made it dangerous to engage casters. EDK deserved a correction because it can critical for 120 damage easily, comes out hasted, super durable, and is hard to prepare for since the type that emerges is always a surprise.

However, summons that last the full duration (unlike gate and EDK), are Absolutely Essential for a subset of mages that cannot cast evocation spells at all. My first character spent the vast majority of his lower levels contributing almost nothing to the party but his summon, as his spells did no damage and lasted a hair's breath longer then it took to cast them. He was also always at the cusp of being just able to rest again, for that brief five minutes of usefulness besides his summon.

I cannot even imagine how difficult it would be to adventure with him again if his normal long duration summons were weakened.

Without Evocation, you really realize how difficult soloing can be. If your summon caves in, so you do.

My summon was the PC, and my character his NPC companion.

I dont disagree with your first premise or final conclusion but i found it odd you needed evocation magic to contribute. Like buffing everyone, especially haste, was useless in a party? Id think evocation would be the more useless school in a party except for boss fights.

That being said, I understand your concern. Most classes should have some minimum soloing ability.

This is a good change. 80% of my anectodal pvp vs mages is them going gsanc>edk. Will be nice to see something different.
Considering all the tools mundanes lost to deal with this combo, then this seems fair.

Most summons on this server need a massive derp in power to go from being stars more powerful than PC warrior caste to "helpmates."

They are fine as they are currently... making them weaker will just make people stop using them. Whole point of being a summoner is so you can summon something insanely powerful, grab a beer, and watch it utterly destroy the target at your leisure. Summoning actually being effective here is one of the reasons i love this server as the last server i was on had nerfed summons into nothing more then jokes.

Vrass wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:56 am They are fine as they are currently... making them weaker will just make people stop using them. Whole point of being a summoner is so you can summon something insanely powerful, grab a beer, and watch it utterly destroy the target at your leisure. Summoning actually being effective here is one of the reasons i love this server as the last server i was on had nerfed summons into nothing more then jokes.

I agree. One possibility is nerf the base summons while actually BUFFING the summon when ESF conj is taken more to balance it out. I think the issue is any epic mage with other spell foci can be a “conjurer” with no real commitment to the school.

I like these changes, at least in the context of the UMD changes and caster's current supremacy. If mundanes don't have easy-to-get tools to dispel it, then a substantial nerf to the summon power is needed (I'd equally consider the power of other high-SR summons / creatures).

I think Peppermint made a very good point that the offensive power is high. You can't have these creatures have high defence, high offence and be undispellable.

Peppermint wrote: Fri Oct 18, 2019 1:53 am The EDK has much stronger offense than the other summons.

- +6 AB over Gate summons.
- 4 APR before Haste. (Other summons are all 3 APR.)
- Pure physical damage; not easily mitigated by essences. (Gate summons all have three elemental damage types; up to 15 damage can be soaked by essences per attack.)

Furthermore, though the EDK summon has one less point of constitution than Gate summons, its hit die is d12 rather than d8. A 27th level caster with Epic Spell Focus: Conjuration would see a dragon with 180 hit points more than baseline for a total of 480 hit points. A Gate summon, for comparison, would net 130 hit points more than baseline for a total of 414.

While not extraordinarily tanky by any means, it will last roughly as long as many 30th level PCs if focused. For a summon that's capable of outputting significant damage if ignored, that doesn't strike me as a bad deal at all.