Arelith

The GrumpyCat wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 9:13 pmGood aligned outcast is an award I'm sorta interested in, but I'm a little split. On the one hand I think it could result in some fun concepts, on the other...

It's not always easy to take it in stride, and it needs the same kind of vaguely masochistic attitude that a good monster might need - Maybe a little lesser, since there's usually somewhere to go, surface or UD.

Not to continue down the Slave road too far, but I have noticed a lot of Slaves defending their slavery with “I owe my life to so and so for such and such”. This to me is along the lines of servitude, not slavery. I have to agree with adding real penalties to being a slave. It’s amazing how effective mechanical power is at changing the demographics.

Slaves should just not be able to level past 5. I understand the mechanic of getting free needs to change as a result of that but the current system is totally unrealistic

Just make permanent slavery available only on character creation and only to commoners, all other captured slaves being prisoners that can have their freedom arc when they feel like it.

Xerah wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 6:26 pm Slaves should just not be able to level past 5. I understand the mechanic of getting free needs to change as a result of that but the current system is totally unrealistic

I sort of disagree with this train of thought.. Look at your classical gladiator slaves for example. Most of them would easily overpower their masters in one on one combat, but they are kept subdued due to threats of torture/punishment/etc..

Adventurer slaves should not be your typical slaves, they are powerful beings that have been captured/imprisoned somehow and are unable to escape due to the magical limitations of the collar.

I would support a tool that allows masters to temporarily subdue their slaves easily possibly from magical properties of the collar, but limiting the levelling experience of slaves to promote realism in a game that is not about realism isn't going to be fun for anyone.

Slaves should just not be able to level past 5. I understand the mechanic of getting free needs to change as a result of that but the current system is totally unrealistic

It's taken me a while to work out why this makes me uneasy, and Ithink to a degree I've worked out why.

If we did this, then slaves - pragmatically speaking - would be functionally useless to their masters. Why would you bother owning a level 5 character? They can't go anywhere interesting with you. Can't craft much of interest. Can't defend you or your property. They're just sorta... there.

The only narrative that exists then, for owning a slave, is 'I wanna slave to beat and torture and use hurr hurrr hurrr. And y'know, that happening to a degree is OK, but making that the -soul reason- for the mechanic, a thing that (if we're being honest) already pushes the PG13 rules - seems a decidedly dodgy move.

The GrumpyCat wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 7:50 pm

Slaves should just not be able to level past 5. I understand the mechanic of getting free needs to change as a result of that but the current system is totally unrealistic

It's taken me a while to work out why this makes me uneasy, and Ithink to a degree I've worked out why.

If we did this, then slaves - pragmatically speaking - would be functionally useless to their masters. Why would you bother owning a level 5 character? They can't go anywhere interesting with you. Can't craft much of interest. Can't defend you or your property. They're just sorta... there.

The only narrative that exists then, for owning a slave, is 'I wanna slave to beat and torture and use hurr hurrr hurrr. And y'know, that happening to a degree is OK, but making that the -soul reason- for the mechanic, a thing that (if we're being honest) already pushes the PG13 rules - seems a decidedly dodgy move.

Posted at the same time as my above response, I agree with these points too!

Adventure slaves just are silly though. Why does this epic level wizard accept slavery? The act of slavery is supposed to be a hardship. And it’s really not the way it is now. Sometimes it’s done right but most of the times its really not.

And I can assure you that a level 5 fighter gladiator would be very powerful against lvl 1 commoners/nobles.

Can't slaves already be summoned to slave pits by anyone for any reason?

I'm not familiar with the actual mechanics but I recall hearing that before. Seems like a good way to make them deferrential.

"Oh, you're mouthing off to me? Let me go put you in this warded pit you can't escape from until you say you're sorry."

Are people just not utilizing that enough?

The mechanization of slavery always felt problematic to me.

You were taking something that was supposed to be a narrative consequence and turning it into a more usable mechanical system.

I'll scream "muh immersion" when I see [slave] tags attached to random adventurers as I mosey about the surface. I also think slavery has been fetishized by Lolith and drow culture, and is absolutely fundamentally nothing alike slavery of either Classical Greece or ancient Rome. Or cattle slavery of the Americas. Or the Slavic slavery of the Ottoman Janissaries. Or the Christian slaves of of the Abbasid Caliphate.

There is no need for free and cheap "labour" on Arelith. There's no need for someone to "adventure" for you - it's not like slaves can gather experience points on behalf of their master.

Truly, I think the only avenue for slavery (beyond torture porn) is the gathering of intelligence or martial support in Underdark conflicts. But we can't really look to history for any kind of basis for this, because the examples of these are not translatable into the Arelithian environment.

I think we're constantly trying to make the Surface important to the Underdark - why the acts of evil slaves spread terror on behalf of their evil masters.

I think we're looking at it the wrong way - I think the Underdark needs to be more important to the Surface.

edit: and yeah, maybe the closest we've gotten is drow/others kidnapping surfacers and twisting them to become martial warriors of the Underdark and bound to royal families, but those aren't "slaves" in the sense of Arelith's systems. Those are now just fully-fledged Underdarkers and should be treated as such.

Because said wizard can be summoned without choice to the slave pits by his collar, where he/she cannot do any magic - and be executed.

As I said, more mechanics such as the slave summoning tool would be welcome.

Inflicting a mechanical limitation on levelling because some RP is poor is really not fair on the people doing it right. It also doesn't make sense to implement this on everyone without even RPing a reason for it. Why does being a slave mean the sorcerer doesn't grow in power or the shadowdancer fails to improve their ability to hide? Unless their is a commonly accepted explanation for this, which is RP'd, it will be too jarring.

I would just stop allowing slaves to be made for about six months, then reintroduce it as a normal reward option.

Honestly slaves these days seem like chums or henchmen, and not really slaves at all. They don't seem to dislike their lot in life, nor their masters. They're just hanging out.

I dunno, it just feels off.

Morgy wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 8:14 pm Because said wizard can be summoned without choice to the slave pits by his collar, where he/she cannot do any magic - and be executed.

Nevrus wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 8:11 pm Can't slaves already be summoned to slave pits by anyone for any reason?

I'm not familiar with the actual mechanics but I recall hearing that before. Seems like a good way to make them deferrential.

"Oh, you're mouthing off to me? Let me go put you in this warded pit you can't escape from until you say you're sorry."

Are people just not utilizing that enough?

The problem with that, is that if a slave character never reveals their real name and doesn't own any property, you can't get their name outside of metagaming it, and you need a slaves name to summon them to the pits. Maybe if there was a registry of slaves and their owners that would work.

Adventure slaves just are silly though.

They had such slaves in RL, they were called Janissaries. One was considered fortunate to be chosen as a Janissary since they had quite a bit of power and autonomy for slaves. Assuming one survived long enough and served they could become their master's right hand and even own slaves of their own. They were still slaves yes but better off then slaves selected to mine ore for the rest of eternity.

Drowboy wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 1:07 pm That's about as expected, and I'm seeing it as well. It doesn't help that the proliferation of fake-outcast slaves has made it so a lot of people don't even bother treating them as slaves at this point, as the 'slave' is just as likely to start fighting people over it as anything else.

It might help if the 'normal reward' outcasts were actually available, though, since they are still bugged as of this post.

Pretty wild that this change so quickly and so effectively eviscerated outcasts overnight that it took a little over a month for anyone to realize it was broken to begin with, and now another month + before it's even fixed.

"adventure slaves" may be silly conceptually (despite the many good examples brought up in this thread afterwards) but that's the space they occupy on the server.

There is no need for free and cheap "labour" on Arelith. There's no need for someone to "adventure" for you - it's not like slaves can gather experience points on behalf of their master.

Truly, I think the only avenue for slavery (beyond torture porn) is the gathering of intelligence or martial support in Underdark conflicts.

there is very little narrative space or reason for a slave to occupy otherwise. the server, especially the hypercentralised underdark, simply isn't designed to enable mechanically inconsequential set dressing RP in a way that is narratively meaningful (to players and characters) and rewarding (to players). it'd need to be radically changed.

i also don't know what that change would look like, considering it would essentially be telling the current population of slave players "no, not like that", and thinking this new slave niche will be occupied by different players. the low numbers of commoner characters tells me folks are probably not waiting in the wings to go "ah, finally, a character barely capable of existing without other players, and also 100% entirely at their mercy" - some folks relish restrictions, but i can't see the appeal broadly.

if you make slaves less appealing/effectively cosmetic, people will play less slaves generally. perhaps that's a price you'd be willing to make, but at least fix outcast first

tldr it shouldn't be difficult to play a slave. what the character experiences should be one of difficulty. balancing the two is something that i think we've struggled with a lot over the years

edit: i will say generally that if players arent having fun they won't play that character, and folks calling for "realistic treatment" to "put slaves in a more thematic place" may also struggle to think of ways to make that enjoyable, fun, and engaging for the other player.

Frailman wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 9:12 pm Honestly slaves these days seem like chums or henchmen, and not really slaves at all. They don't seem to dislike their lot in life, nor their masters. They're just hanging out.

I dunno, it just feels off.

Several complaints of this now. Let the DM Team know if someone isn't roleplaying well and we can at least look into RPR issues.

DM Rex wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 2:50 pm

Frailman wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 9:12 pm Honestly slaves these days seem like chums or henchmen, and not really slaves at all. They don't seem to dislike their lot in life, nor their masters. They're just hanging out.

I dunno, it just feels off.

Several complaints of this now. Let the DM Team know if someone isn't roleplaying well and we can at least look into RPR issues.

Is this necessarily wrong? I distinctively remember an NPC in the Devil's Table that is a slave and its description remarks how well dressed and how smug he is. Valued slaves can be given some nice things, and some degree freedom, they may even act somewhat prideful as they know they are important to their master due to their particular skills.

I am not saying this should be always the case, or widespread, but it does not seem necessarily wrong, two different slaves can be in two very different situations.

Shadowy Reality wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 3:23 pm

DM Rex wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 2:50 pm

Frailman wrote: Mon May 11, 2020 9:12 pm Honestly slaves these days seem like chums or henchmen, and not really slaves at all. They don't seem to dislike their lot in life, nor their masters. They're just hanging out.

I dunno, it just feels off.

Several complaints of this now. Let the DM Team know if someone isn't roleplaying well and we can at least look into RPR issues.

Is this necessarily wrong? I distinctively remember an NPC in the Devil's Table that is a slave and its description remarks how well dressed and how smug he is. Valued slaves can be given some nice things, and some degree freedom, they may even act somewhat prideful as they know they are important to their master due to their particular skills.

I am not saying this should be always the case, or widespread, but it does not seem necessarily wrong, two different slaves can be in two very different situations.

Disclaimer, this is more so my opinion than official statement!

I think it can be both, right? A slave that is treated badly, is poor, malnourished, is not gonna be smug and enjoy themselves, right?

But! A slave who is successful in what they do, works well for their master, may be afforded certain opportunities to have nice things, become stronger, too. This is good when it is the result of longer, and layered/complex RP between slave and master. It could even all be a ploy to become stronger than one's master and escape...

Either way, each slave's journey is unique I think, but by and large, they're in a tough spot, treated like 2nd rate citizens, they surely shouldn't be enjoying that, at least not to begin with until they maybe start getting treated better. Then of course, they don't ALWAYS get treated better.

Not really sure if this is about Outcasts anymore. There's a thread about Slavery just below this one btw.

Good and interesting points on both threads.

DM Chatsworth wrote: Tue May 12, 2020 3:42 pmI think it can be both, right?

there's a place (narratively and desired, not mechanically at present) for both and all in between, it's just that there's no particular systemic justification, encouragement, or compunction to take the steps necessary to make a slave meek, cowardly, and knowing their place and changing behaviour for a better lot in life, particularly since if you do it's rather easy for that slave to either just straight up leave or to cause you more trouble than it's worth.

which, yknow, is sort of realistic to a point. honey and vinegar and all that. but it does mean that the current situation is weird with a lot of slaves that are basically employees or just hang-arounds of certain people, which is (usually) a different social role in most examples of slavery or indentured servitude we can draw on. it's tricky since if you restrict a slave's powers and freedoms through mechanical means you wind up lowering their usefulness. if slaves aren't useful, then people won't get any benefits from them, which means demand drops, and incentive to play one drops.

by way of example and to bring the topic back, outcasts started dropping off and slaves slowly raising when outcasts had more caveats and restrictions added than slaves. the UD was absolutely starved of slaves for ages after the initial "boom" died off. then they got made an award, which, ignoring that making an outcast regardless is bugged, has absolutely seen an increase in the slaves described this way. it's outcast lite that you can buy your way out of the "restrictions" and then are basically freely able to operate surface and UD if you play your cards right (or wrong, depending on your view of the topic) with disguises and lies and subterfuge.

which is the niche that outcasts were meant to operate within, but then over the years we've restricted them way more harshly, and they're supposed to minihitlers have backgrounds and reputations at level 1 of a magnitude and irreversible notoriety that many epic villains would struggle to achieve. meanwhile, slaves are very much optimal for the sort of "UD version of a surface race" RP that obviously has a player demand, but seems to be being handled backwards. while outcasts are bugged, hamstrung, and award locked, it's not gonna improve, and all making slaves and slavery more "impactful" will do is reduce UD player numbers (not, as some may think, cause them to swap to trad-UD races).

What if being an Outcast was made to be much like being a Pirate? Except that instead of you trying to prove your worth to your fellow pirates, you are trying to prove your usefulness to the monsters that live in the Underdark?

Perhaps Outcasts could start much akin PC's that come down from Skall to UD, with no portal network access or language.

Or perhaps they do get the free language but no portals, and maybe NPC text treats them with suspicion.

As you increase in your "Notoriety", like Pirate Ink, you become more and more recognizable as an Outcast with high Lore checks, and you gain more benefits to playing such as portal network access, ability to buy a quarter at a "better area" instead of the "foreigner slums", NPC discounts and ability to run for election.

Thoughts?

Sencliff has had its systems set up for its current state. Playing an UD pc requires access to the portal, as a near nessecity. Having outcasts buy into and earn a place in the city, is a good concept, but the UD portal is something that for new/existing pcs is near absolutely fundamental. Gating off elections, houses, and stores until they "earn" it, sounds like something worth considering though. However if the portal is to be gated off at start, it should be something you can unlock by doing things in, and around the city.

To continue my own thoughts and to respond to Chosen Son.

What if Outcasts started with portal access to Treadstone Locks? aka. "the slum district". They also have the return-portal in Slave Pits, just not the hub central. They could own property in Treadstone Tenetments, but nowhere else.

Perhaps the Gondolier would charge them extra. You CAN walk to every location in Andunor: Grayport via Slave Pit tunnels, Shipyard & Treadstones, so if you do not want to pay... 10gp instead of 5gp, that is not a huge detriment. (I mean, taxi drivers in RL will try to charge you extra for being a foreigner in some countries. Could bypass with a persuation check, maybe?)

"earning" their recognition in Andunor could involve some writs/tasks, such as taking care of a surfacer spy hiding in the Slum Caverns, to feather-torture this captured Dwarven Scout from Borgenstein, and other such things for the "first steps" (that do not require leaving the city) to gain the Hubmaster's trust and central portal access.

Or perhaps, just a lengthy social interaction with a NPC, with the PC trying to persuade the official in the Hub to grant them portal access, with dialogue options akin to a job interview. "Why should be give you access to this portal? What does not make you a spy, here to undermine our prosperity?"

Perhaps at the end of that social interaction, you are given a "writ of passage" item that enables you to use said portals. An item that you can (should you be able?) to show to Monster PC's who question your presence in the city?

Then for higher levels of recognition, some more challenging tasks?